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Should people be allowed to wear full face veils in hospitals? watch

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  • View Poll Results: would you want to be treated by someone wearing a full face veil?
    yes - I don't care
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    No - I would like to see their face
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    But you just said: "Simply put, the doctor is a professional and can exercise professional judgement." Why do you trust their judgement regarding blue face coverings but not black ones? Is it the colour you have a problem with?
    I've argued that
    1) doctors can exercise professional judgement when to wear the blue surgical masks which serves a legitimate purpose
    2) full face veils are a security risk
    3) full face veils lead to a deterioration of rapport

    So, the difference between a doctor wearing a blue surgical mask - which the doctor would remove when interacting directly with a patient in any event - and a full face veil is that the former serves a legitimate purpose while the latter does not.
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    (Original post by JackFletch)
    As long as it does not intefere with a person recieving medical attention or cause any safety concerns I can't see why not
    wanted to give you rep, but couldn't lol, nice response
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    (Original post by Danz123)
    However, one could make the argument that facial expressions are a big part of communication and thus the palliative care these workers provide wouldn't be as good. Therefore it would obviously be better not to wear a face veil.
    Have to agree communication is a very important part of a doctors job.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    but their professional judgment would be backup up by other doctors professional judgment would it not?
    Yes, I suppose it is a good idea to have some consensus.
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    no one should be allowed to be in a public space with their face covered unless there is a health and safety issue.
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    No. Surgical masks are worn in specific situations where they are required for infection control, not when doctors are consulting patients and discussing treatment - why people are bringing this up I don't know. Facial expressions are a key part of communication which in turn is vital for any kind of doctor-patient rapport.
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    (Original post by VV Cephei A)
    No. Surgical masks are worn in specific situations where they are required for infection control, not when doctors are consulting patients and discussing treatment - why people are bringing this up I don't know. Facial expressions are a key part of communication which in turn is vital for any kind of doctor-patient rapport.
    A right minded person.
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    Personally, I would want to see the face of the person I'm talking to, even though I'm shy. Lol
    Veils, masks, balaclavas, hoods, face paint etc. are problematic for a number of reasons:

    1. CCTV and all that jazz. If a person commits a crime and they're wearing something to hide their identity, then they're going to be difficult to catch.
    2. As many people have already said, there is a relationship between the doctor/nurse and their patient. Covering your face, regardless of the reason, puts up a barrier.
    3. Germs can gather on any type of material. Masks, veils, jewellery and other accessories can pose a threat because of the bacteria they harbour. Hospitals have to be as hygienic as possible.

    Regarding surgical masks, they are an exception because:
    1. They should only really be worn in the operating theatre; it's unnecessary to wear them constantly, plus see the reasons above.
    2. They are a safety precaution, worn to help minimise the risk of infection during surgery.
    3. All the surgical masks I've seen only cover the mouth and nose; this isn't as inappropriate as covering the entire face.

    When in public or at home, you have every right to wear what you choose (within reason, of course; you can't wander down the street naked. Lol) but, when you're involved in medical care, the wellbeing of your patients has to come first.
    If you aren't willing to abide by the rules of a certain job, you should aim for a different one. It would be equally ridiculous if you insisted on being a fireman and wearing a tutu, or being a lawyer with a rainbow mohawk. It just isn't practical nor beneficial.

    That's my belief, I mean no offence.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Yes, I suppose it is a good idea to have some consensus.
    So if the head of equality, diversity and human rights at NHS states ' it is paramount that there are no barriers to effective communication between staff and patients' and that '17 hospitals have banned healthcare workers from wearing the full face veil, the niqab, while working' do you agree then that consensus is against covering
    Professor Carol Baxter, head of equality, diversity and human rights at NHS Employers said that while “valuing diversity” is a core value of the NHS, “to ensure the highest level of care is delivered, it is paramount that there are no barriers to effective communication between staff and patients.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...l-8826042.html
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    no one should be allowed to be in a public space with their face covered unless there is a health and safety issue.
    They should be allowed to wear it if they wish to unless there's security issues or health and safety issues
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Sure. But I'm saying that, if such rules are actively enforced when it comes to a veil, so too should they be enforced when it comes to a surgeon's mask. I can't think why it should ever be the case where "In this particular situation, covering your face with a blue surgeon's mask is allowed, but a black veil is not allowed".
    They're not even remotely comparable.

    Firstly, a surgeon's mask is not a full face veil. The eyes and eyebrows are still entirely visible which allows a significant part of the human element - the most important, even - that a full face veil destroys to remain.

    Secondly, the surgeon's mask is necessary for hygiene in an operating theatre and not wearing one risks the patient's health, possible even their lives if they are, say, especially frail or on a course of immunosuppressant medication.

    Thirdly, a surgeon's mask is intended to be worn when someone is being surgically operated on for a limited time and in which the patient will be sedated to some extent, often to the point of complete unconsciousness, and so the abscence of the human element is wholly irrelevant in this context anyway.

    Fourthly, I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a mask in a hospital setting when it wasn't at least highly plausible that they were on their way or had just come from an operating theatre. If they are rushing about the place it seems highly pernickety to ensure they remove it as soon as they have left the operating theatre and only put it on once inside. It is obviously ridiculous to imagine that a surgeon is going to lose a patient on the table and come out to break the news to the family without first removing the mask out of respect. I would go so far as to say that that has never happened in peace-time Britain. The point is that they are free to remove it at appropriate times and I trust that they would do so, because they do tend to be intelligent and compassionate individuals and are coached in dealing with these situations. This is incomparable to a full face veil which the wearer wears religiously and with active intent not to remove under any ordinary circumstances in such a situation.
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    (Original post by elliemayxo)
    No they shouldn't. It's intimidating. Don't come here with your religion when we can't do the same with ours.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    You are also welcome to "come here with your religion".
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    They should be allowed to wear it if they wish to unless there's security issues or health and safety issues
    You are entitled to your opinion and you I am entitled to mine.
    All the best.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    So if the head of equality, diversity and human rights at NHS states ' it is paramount that there are no barriers to effective communication between staff and patients' and that '17 hospitals have banned healthcare workers from wearing the full face veil, the niqab, while working' do you agree then that consensus is against covering
    Professor Carol Baxter, head of equality, diversity and human rights at NHS Employers said that while “valuing diversity” is a core value of the NHS, “to ensure the highest level of care is delivered, it is paramount that there are no barriers to effective communication between staff and patients.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...l-8826042.html
    I don't agree that this constitutes a "consensus", because a consensus is when many professionals are saying it, not just one person. But yes, if this person is saying face veils should be banned to prevent barriers to communication, that's perfectly fair. But then why not ban surgical masks in those same situations?

    In any case, I'm not sure what relevance this has to what I was saying. teh forum says that doctors are professionals, and therefore should be able to exercise their own judgement regarding surgical masks. In which case, I want to know whether he would trust a doctor's judgement regarding veils as well.

    I get the impression that he only trusts a professional's judgement when it is the same as his own judgement.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I don't agree that this constitutes a "consensus", because a consensus is when many professionals are saying it, not just one person.

    In any case, I'm not sure what relevance this has to what I was saying. teh forum says that doctors are professionals, and therefore should be able to exercise their own judgement regarding surgical masks. In which case, I want to know whether he would trust a doctor's judgement regarding veils as well.

    I get the impression that he only trusts a professional's judgement when it is the same as his own judgement.
    he's the head of the NHS's head of equality, diversity and human rights. He would not operate without consensus.You see this is where you fall over it is clear the consensus is against veiling yet even when shown this you still deny it
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I don't agree that this constitutes a "consensus", because a consensus is when many professionals are saying it, not just one person. But yes, if this person is saying face veils should be banned to prevent barriers to communication, that's perfectly fair. But then why not ban surgical masks in those same situations?

    In any case, I'm not sure what relevance this has to what I was saying. teh forum says that doctors are professionals, and therefore should be able to exercise their own judgement regarding surgical masks. In which case, I want to know whether he would trust a doctor's judgement regarding veils as well.

    I get the impression that he only trusts a professional's judgement when it is the same as his own judgement.
    Are you really that ignorant to suggest that these decisions are made by one person only? These are major decisions which involve notions of good healthcare, security, and religion which are invariably made by senior members of the NHS.

    The relevance of hospitals banning workers from wearing niqabs is clear; it provides sound support for my argument.
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    (Original post by a noble chance)
    Firstly, a surgeon's mask is not a full face veil. The eyes are still visible which allows a significant part of the human element - the most important, even - that a full face veil destroys to remain.
    Face veils usually show the eyes as well.

    Secondly, the surgeon's mask is necessary for hygiene in an operating theatre and not wearing one risks the patient's health, possible even their lives if they are, say, especially frail or on a course of immunosuppressant medication.
    I agree that surgical masks have benefits that veils don't. However my point is that, if the surgical mask has no detrimental effects in a particular situation, why would a veil have any detrimental effects in the same situation (even if there is no benefit)?

    Or equally, if a veil has some detrimental effect in some situation, why wouldn't the surgical mask have the same detrimental effect in the same situation?

    Thirdly, a surgeon's mask is intended to be worn when someone is being surgically operated on for a limited time and in which the patient will be sedated to some extent, often to the point of complete unconsciousness, and so the abscence of the human element is wholly irrelevant in this context anyway.
    So then surgical masks should be banned when not operating, right?

    Fourthly, I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a mask in a hospital setting when it wasn't at least highly plausible that they were on their way or had just come from an operating theatre. If they are rushing about the place it seems highly pernickety to ensure they remove it as soon as they have left the operating theatre and only put it on once inside. It is obviously ridiculous to imagine that a surgeon is going to lose a patient on the table and come out to break the news to the family without first removing the mask out of respect. I would go so far as to say that that has never happened in peace-time Britain. The point is that they are free to remove it at appropriate times and I trust that they would do so, because they do tend to be intelligent and compassionate individuals and are coached in dealing with these situations. This is incomparable to a full face veil which the wearer wears religiously and with active intent not to remove under any ordinary circumstances in such a situation.
    But then, you're trusting a doctor's judgement when it comes to their surgical mask, but not when it comes to their face veil. Why?

    Even if you were to ban face veils, there's nothing to stop Muslim doctors from just wearing a surgical mask in any situation when they would have otherwise worn a face veil. So you don't really achieve your objective.

    My point here is, you're making an unnecessary distinction between two items of clothing - the veil and the mask. The distinction should be between the situations in which it is acceptable to cover your face (with anything) and not acceptable to cover your face (with anything). The actual item the face is covered with is of little to no relevance.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Face veils usually show the eyes as well.



    I agree that surgical masks have benefits that veils don't. However my point is that, if the surgical mask has no detrimental effects in a particular situation, why would a veil have any detrimental effects in the same situation (even if there is no benefit)?

    Or equally, if a veil has some detrimental effect in some situation, why wouldn't the surgical mask have the same detrimental effect in the same situation?



    So then surgical masks should be banned when not operating, right?



    But then, you're trusting a doctor's judgement when it comes to their surgical mask, but not when it comes to their face veil. Why?

    Even if you were to ban face veils, there's nothing to stop Muslim doctors from just wearing a surgical mask in any situation when they would have otherwise worn a face veil. So you don't really achieve your objective.

    My point here is, you're making an unnecessary distinction between two items of clothing - the veil and the mask. The distinction should be between the situations in which it is acceptable to cover your face (with anything) and not acceptable to cover your face (with anything). The actual item the face is covered with is of little to no relevance.
    Because the mask serves a legitimate purpose while the veil does not.

    I don't think you can argue that Muslims would wear a surgical mask to somehow replicate a full face veil. I wonder what Allah would think of that. What a mockery.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    he's the head of the NHS's head of equality, diversity and human rights. He would not operate without consensus.You see this is where you fall over it is clear the consensus is against veiling yet even when shown this you still deny it
    I'm not denying it. The consensus may well be against veiling. In fact it probably is.

    I'm just saying, one person's word alone does not constitute consensus.
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    (Original post by tehforum)
    Because the mask serves a legitimate purpose while the veil does not.
    I've already addressed this.

    Lots of things don't serve a legitimate purpose in a hospital. Earrings, hats, bracelets, necklaces etc. don't serve a legitimate purpose either. The reason you're saying you're against the veil though, is because in certain situations, they are actually detrimental. Not just that they lack benefit.

    I am simply saying that, in any situation in which the veil is detrimental (hinders communication, identification etc.) a surgical mask is equally detrimental.

    The only time it serves its purpose is in the operating theatre. In which case, in all other situations, it should be equally banned or permitted as the veil.


    I don't think you can argue that Muslims would wear a surgical mask to somehow replicate a full face veil. I wonder what Allah would think of that. What a mockery.
    Why on earth can't I argue that? I doubt Allah would think anything of it.
 
 
 
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