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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Never tried it in my life. Is it tasty as chips and samosas? :teehee: :rolleyes:
    Definitely. Though I've never had a samosa.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    If we gave up eating animals there less land would be required to feed the same number of people because we wouldn't be using land to raise animals and we wouldn't have more land to grow grains which we feed to animals. So once these animals that are bred to die eventually die a natural life we would get back the land they were grazing on and the land which we used to grow crops to feed them. That is a lot of land :rolleyes:
    Still need to convert that grazing land into farming land, and the land used for animal feed into foods we eat. What ecosystems are you destroying there
    Furthermore veganism isn't an eating disorder and eating disorders are not common amongst vegans. Prove that outlandish claim please. Vegans become vegans for ethical reasons, not due to disorders.


    Vegetarians (and as a result vegans) are associated with a much higher probability of suffering from an eating disorder: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ting-disorders

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...71015315000860

    http://content.time.com/time/health/...889742,00.html

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402905/

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02822303002918

    Notice you're still avoiding the issue of animals having to die every day for you to live though. Care to answer any of the points made?
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Never tried it in my life. Is it tasty as chips and samosas? :teehee: :rolleyes:
    Chips are tasty?
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    (Original post by Wilfred Little)
    Chips are tasty?
    Done well - yes. chunky, crisply fried and lightly spiced :sogood:
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Done well - yes. chunky, crisply fried and lightly spiced :sogood:
    Would eat, but typically they are a stodgy and comforting accompaniment to something that is actually tastier. Like say, fish, steak or burgers :eek:
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    Yeah well, he didn't believe in irrational numbers! Shows what he knows.

    Was also scared of beans :teehee:
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    That is an interesting philosophical point you raise . I wonder many times whether humans would kill other humans if we didn't eat meat. I would like to think that humans wouldn't kill any other humans if they became vegans and vegetarians. The reason I think this is because if they care about non-human animals enough not to kill or want to eat them, you would hope they would be aware enough and compassionate enough to care about their own species just as much, if not more. However, if humans can't even care for animals, there is no hope for humans caring about each other. That's the way I see it.

    Please do share your thoughts on this.
    Your logic is backward; humans (almost without exception) care about other humans more than they do other animals. You could perhaps argue that if humans stopped killing each other then they may stop killing animals but I don't think you can make the reverse argument.

    My original point was that if we were so compassionate to animals that we refused to eat them, despite their nutritional value, then we would not be the dominant animal on the planet and would likely not have reached the point of development we're currently at.


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    (Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes)
    My favourite quote is "If slaughterhouses were made out of glass, nobody would eat meat" something along those lines
    If abattoirs had glass walls, people would be vegetarian. Linda McCartney.

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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Cows are raped and their babies taken away from them at birth so humans can have their milk, not the calves. Cow milk is for calves not for humans. I don't drink milk because I don't agree with taking what belongs to an animal without their permission, and also ethically speaking, I cannot justify the murder of calves just so humans can drink their milk instead of the calves. Also cows are forcefully artificially inseminated against their will to make them pregnant. The whole milk industry is gross and that is mostly why I don't drink milk. Even 'free range' cows have their calves taken away and killed as they don't produce milk. Even if the calves were not killed I would not drink the milk because I don't agree with using animal products against an animals will. If animals were to communicate with us and give consent I would still not drink their milk because it is fatty and bad for us and I don't agree with using products from another animal species. Something about me sticking my mouth around a cow's udder seems wrong. Have you thought about it like that?

    Onto hens now. I am against eggs because they are destined to be chickens. Would you eat the embryonic sack of a human baby? I doubt it, so why do it for a chicken's baby? Even free range chickens are bred to lay eggs and they are taken against the chicken's will. They have no say about what happens to their eggs. We simply take it. This is wrong.

    Fundamentally I believe it is wrong to take anything from an animal without their consent. Animals are raised in barbaric conditions in the meat, dairy and egg industries. People who eat these animals and claim to care about animals are hypocrites, because you cannot be part of the industry which tortures, murders, rapes these animals and claim to 'care' about them. It doesn't make sense.

    The above are my reasons for going Vegan. I became a vegan after watching a documentary called Earthlings. I stayed a Vegan because I kept reminding myself what happens to animals for their products and that kept me on the Vegan path, supplemented by the knowledge that my lifestyle choice is the best for the planet in terms of it having the lowest carbon footprint and the smallest environmental impact overall, compared to a vegetarian and indeed a meat-based diet.

    Meat eaters gross me out. It sounds weird but I truly see them as savages. When I see anyone wearing leather or goose down or anything from an animal I think about how ignorant or uncaring they must be. That is partly why I made that argument about them being similar to paedophiles and rapists. If you drink milk you are partaking in the industry that requires the rape of cows. It would be unthinking doing that to a human for their milk but because it's a cow it's okay? No. Cow rapists and human rapists are the same. People who are paedophiles and eat meat are the same in my eyes by virtue of meat eaters being part of the industry that requires the psychological and physical abuse of animals just so they can eat meat. Meat eaters are sadists in my eyes. How can they eat meat knowing an animal with feelings and a nervous system, an animal that feels pain must die so they can eat.

    I'll stop there before I get into trouble with the mods! :eek:
    We should go for a drink sometime, I bet you're really interesting to talk to at parties...
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    “As long as Man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings, he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.”
    ― Pythagoras

    Who agrees? When I see a meat eater, I can see savage backwards human beings who haven't left their caves yet. How can humans expect there to be world peace when we butcher each other, animals, and destroy our planet?

    If everyone understood veganism, they would understand the importance of caring about all life, not just human life. Only then can we strive for world peace. Pythagoras was millennia ahead of his time. What a legend!
    Yum, massacre, murder and pain make meat taste all the more delicious
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    That is an interesting philosophical point you raise . I wonder many times whether humans would kill other humans if we didn't eat meat. I would like to think that humans wouldn't kill any other humans if they became vegans and vegetarians. The reason I think this is because if they care about non-human animals enough not to kill or want to eat them, you would hope they would be aware enough and compassionate enough to care about their own species just as much, if not more. However, if humans can't even care for animals, there is no hope for humans caring about each other. That's the way I see it.

    Please do share your thoughts on this.
    On the contrary, I expect male humans would more or less kill each other on sight if we didn't have to club together to hunt large animals. At the very least our society would be like that of chimpanzees so a strict brutal hierarchy. You could kiss goodbye to the purposeful association of human beings and therefore to much of the technological progress we have enjoyed over the past ten thousand years.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Your logic is backward; humans (almost without exception) care about other humans more than they do other animals. You could perhaps argue that if humans stopped killing each other then they may stop killing animals but I don't think you can make the reverse argument.

    My original point was that if we were so compassionate to animals that we refused to eat them, despite their nutritional value, then we would not be the dominant animal on the planet and would likely not have reached the point of development we're currently at.


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    Now we have reached this so emlightened md advamced stage of our lives we do not need to et meat to survive. Why are we still eating it? Also i'm with pythagoras on the first point. We cannot expect to not have wars or murder until we treat animals as equals. You probably think it's backwards because you can't grasp this concept without being a Vegan.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    On the contrary, I expect male humans would more or less kill each other on sight if we didn't have to club together to hunt large animals. At the very least our society would be like that of chimpanzees so a strict brutal hierarchy. You could kiss goodbye to the purposeful association of human beings and therefore to much of the technological progress we have enjoyed over the past ten thousand years.
    Interesting how you are the second mear-ester who is using the caveman argument to justify eating meat in the 21st century. You no longer need to eat meat. You are no lomger a hunter gatherer. Please stop pretending you need to eat animals because you don't. It is an option you choose to make, not something that is necessary im this day and age.
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    (Original post by MattyJMP)
    We should go for a drink sometime, I bet you're really interesting to talk to at parties...
    Only i don't drink or go to parties i am a fitness freak and train 4/5 times a week. This normal party/coubbing/drinking thing doesn't interest me. If you weren't being sarcastic though, thank you.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Still need to convert that grazing land into farming land, and the land used for animal feed into foods we eat. What ecosystems are you destroying there

    Vegetarians (and as a result vegans) are associated with a much higher probability of suffering from an eating disorder: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ting-disorders

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...71015315000860

    http://content.time.com/time/health/...889742,00.html

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402905/

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02822303002918

    Notice you're still avoiding the issue of animals having to die every day for you to live though. Care to answer any of the points made?
    Interesting links. If anorexics or people with eating disorders choose to go veggie or cegan to hide their disorder that is hardly thy the fault of the diet. It is unfair to make that association. Also the article doesn't mention wjat percentage of vegans and vegetarians have a eating disorder but rather states that the proportion of those that have an eating order is higher than for other eating groups. It also goes on to explain why - because people with esting orders can hide behind the guise of doing it for the environment.

    Also my diet doesn't cause the death of animals. My diet and lifestyle choice is all about not causing the death and destruction of animals.

    Finally we do not need to concert grazing land to farm land. There are enough crops grown to feed everyone as it stands. We just feed a lot of it to factory farmed animals. If you think all the animals you meat eaters eat are raised on pastures in cushy conditions then you are deluded.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Interesting how you are the second mear-ester who is using the caveman argument to justify eating meat in the 21st century. You no longer need to eat meat. You are no lomger a hunter gatherer. Please stop pretending you need to eat animals because you don't. It is an option you choose to make, not something that is necessary im this day and age.
    I'm not justifying eating meat today, just saying why we wouldn't have been here to ask the question if we hadn't been meat-eaters - specifically big game hunters - as cavemen.

    There is no particular reason for us to eat meat, but no reason for us to feel bad about it either. Farm animals are not smart enough to understand death or confinement, and they get what seems to me to be a sweet deal: food on tap, protection from predation, veterinary medicine and disease control, longer lifespans, for males all the shagging they can get.

    Aside from certain husbandry methods which are deplorable but can easily be improved, the only twinge of ethical concern I have felt from your posts is in the separation of babies from their mothers. (Although chickens can't even count their eggs and I'm pretty sure they'll even brood on an empty nest.)
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    (Original post by CloakedSpartan)

    You know who else killed people who didn't live the same way he did? Hitler.
    Plus he was a vegetarian :ninja:
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I'm not justifying eating meat today, just saying why we wouldn't have been here to ask the question if we hadn't been meat-eaters - specifically big game hunters - as cavemen.

    There is no particular reason for us to eat meat, but no reason for us to feel bad about it either. Farm animals are not smart enough to understand death or confinement, and they get what seems to me to be a sweet deal: food on tap, protection from predation, veterinary medicine and disease control, longer lifespans, for males all the shagging they can get.

    Aside from certain husbandry methods which are deplorable but can easily be improved, the only twinge of ethical concern I have felt from your posts is in the separation of babies from their mothers. (Although chickens can't even count their eggs and I'm pretty sure they'll even brood on an empty nest.)
    That is wrong. Farm animals have a fully developed nervous system and feel pain. I could show you a dozen youtube videos of animals about to be killed with shear terror on their faces as they meet their fate. And yes we should feel bad about eating animals because we are murdering them. Murdering humans is wrong, and my argument is that murdering animals is just as wrong. Just because they are not human, it doesn't make murdering them is right.

    As for your notion that they are getting a sweet deal, I do not agree. If I was in the animals position I would rather not ever have come into existence than lead the life they live. What kind of animal wants to come into the world just to be restricted to a field or pen or cage, some force fed, and then to be killed for meat? That is no life for human or animal.

    Also by your argument that chickens can't count their eggs - does that also mean we should kill humans who can't count? People with mental illnesses, or a disability?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Plus he was a vegetarian :ninja:
    With reference to Hitler, he only ate a vegetarian diet towards the end of his life just because his doctor recommended it and told him it would make him live longer. He was not compassionate towards animals. In fact 99% of his life he lived as a meat-eater, just like you meat-eating savages. So I really don't see what you are trying to prove saying he was a vegetarian? Hardly a role model for the meat-eaters on here either :rolleyes: Let's agree he was a psychopathic maniac who tried various diets during his life. The fact he ate meat, or a vegetarian diet is inconsequential to this debate about the ethics of eating animals.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    That is wrong. Farm animals have a fully developed nervous system and feel pain. I could show you a dozen youtube videos of animals about to be killed with shear terror on their faces as they meet their fate. And yes we should feel bad about eating animals because we are murdering them. Murdering humans is wrong, and my argument is that murdering animals is just as wrong. Just because they are not human, it doesn't make murdering them is right.
    Of course animals feel fear at the moment of death (as they would in the wild). So ensure they are stunned prior to slaighter or otherwise killed humanely. It remains that animals living on the farm, or even lining up at the abattoir, do not understand that their death warrant is signed.

    As for your notion that they are getting a sweet deal, I do not agree. If I was in the animals position I would rather not ever have come into existence than lead the life they live. What kind of animal wants to come into the world just to be restricted to a field or pen or cage, some force fed, and then to be killed for meat? That is no life for human or animal.
    They do not understand the abstract concept of freedom. Close confinement is obviously uncomfortable for more immediate reasons and not the sort of practice I would support.

    As for animals moving from pasture to pasture to milking shed or whatever, I accept that they might get fed up of the same surroudings every day, but submit that the routine is no more oppressive than humans going to work, sitting at home etc.

    Animals however do not understand the abstract concept that by living on a farm they are unfree. Really they have it better than humans in this respect...

    Also by your argument that chickens can't count their eggs - does that also mean we should kill humans who can't count? People with mental illnesses, or a disability?
    No, it means we can take eggs laid by hens and they will be none the wiser and continue to brood. In this case the point about separation from young is specious because it plainly does not cause distress to the hens. For a cow separated from her calf who then has to have her tits pumped by a machine every morning I am on your side.
 
 
 
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