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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    The way in which Sikhs prostrate before the Granth (holy book) could be considered idolatry, even in spite of idolation being prohibited.
    But tbf the way we face and bow down towards the Ka'aba could make a non-Muslim think that we were engaging in idolatry if the non-Muslim was unaware of the actual reason why we do what we do.

    Basically, appearances can be deceiving :lol:
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    (Original post by IndianMuslim)
    But tbf the way we face and bow down towards the Ka'aba could make a non-Muslim think that we were engaging in idolatry if the non-Muslim was unaware of the actual reason why we do what we do.

    Basically, appearances can be deceiving :lol:
    Good point


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    (Original post by IndianMuslim)
    But tbf the way we face and bow down towards the Ka'aba could make a non-Muslim think that we were engaging in idolatry if the non-Muslim was unaware of the actual reason why we do what we do.

    Basically, appearances can be deceiving :lol:
    There is a distinction, and it's not about appearance - as a fellow Muslim, you would agree that we only use the Ka'ba as a direction for prayer, not for any other purpose because we believe the Ka'ba will help us, nor do we focus on the Ka'ba during prayer.

    On the other hand, I can tell you having been born into a Sikh family, that Sikhs bow down to the Granth (holy book) as an act of respect and worship, but they also ask for the Guru (which is the Granth as well as the living Gurus before it) to bestow blessings upon them through Ardas etc, which is similar to how Hindus and other polytheists pray not to the statue but the figure it represents.

    Appearances can be deceiving, but fortunately I was refering to the meaning behind their prostration.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    The way in which Sikhs prostrate before the Granth (holy book) could be considered idolatry, even in spite of idolation being prohibited.
    Well Muslims store the Quran in a high place and some cover it up, and they have things like tawiz...

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    (Original post by chemting)
    Well Muslims store the Quran in a high place and some cover it up, and they have things like tawiz...

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    No one prostrates to the Quran and asks the Quran for help, and those who wear Tawiz are committing Shirk, so that's hardly a valid point :indiff:
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    There is a distinction, and it's not about appearance - as a fellow Muslim, you would agree that we only use the Ka'ba as a direction for prayer, not for any other purpose because we believe the Ka'ba will help us, nor do we focus on the Ka'ba during prayer.

    On the other hand, I can tell you having been born into a Sikh family, that Sikhs bow down to the Granth (holy book) as an act of respect and worship, but they also ask for the Guru (which is the Granth as well as the living Gurus before it) to bestow blessings upon them through Ardas etc, which is similar to how Hindus and other polytheists pray not to the statue but the figure it represents.

    Appearances can be deceiving, but fortunately I was refering to the meaning behind their prostration.
    Of course, I know why and how we use the Ka'aba, however an outsider could mistake it as Muslims engaging in idolatry since on the surface level it LOOKS like we are worshipping the Ka'aba.
    That is what I meant by appearances.

    In reality it is the intention that matters more than the actions imo.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    No one prostrates to the Quran and asks the Quran for help, and those who wear Tawiz are committing Shirk, so that's hardly a valid point :indiff:
    You're still giving an intrinsic value to an object (book).

    And whether tawiz is shirk os heavily disputed among scholars: even within Salafis and Hanbali school (though big name Salafi scholars rule it so) so its not conclusive whether it is shirk or not

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    (Original post by IndianMuslim)
    Of course, I know why and how we use the Ka'aba, however an outsider could mistake it as Muslims engaging in idolatry since on the surface level it LOOKS like we are worshipping the Ka'aba.
    That is what I meant by appearances.

    In reality it is the intention that matters more than the actions imo.
    My point is they commit Shirk as they do it, so even if they believe that they are not idolators or have the intention to perform idol worship, they are guilty of it by matter of fact. Even if we say that their postration to the Granth is a sign of respect much like how we perform Wudhu in order to respect Allah's Quran, the way in which they pray to it/the person(s) it represents is Shirk, thus elevating this act of respect to Idolatry, which as been my whole fundemental point.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    You're still giving an intrinsic value to an object (book).

    And whether tawiz is shirk os heavily disputed among scholars: even within Salafis and Hanbali school (though big name Salafi scholars rule it so) so its not conclusive whether it is shirk or not

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    That does not refute my fundemental point that respecting the word of Allah is not the same as how Sikhs commit Shirk through the persons behind the Granth.

    Having read up on this just now, I will concede that there is Ikhtilaaf; I am still of the opinion that it should be avoided. I am not sure how a Taweez is relevant to this discussion though...
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    My point is they commit Shirk as they do it, so even if they believe that they are not idolators or have the intention to perform idol worship, they are guilty of it by matter of fact. Even if we say that their postration to the Granth is a sign of respect much like how we perform Wudhu in order to respect Allah's Quran, the way in which they pray to it/the person(s) it represents is Shirk, thus elevating this act of respect to Idolatry, which as been my whole fundemental point.
    As you have said before, you were not a devout follower of the Sikh religon before you converted to Islam, therefore it is likely that you do not understand all of its teachings and know all of its practices. So you cannot say that the Sikhs beleive a certain thing, just because you thought they did, without knowing the true meaning behind it, when what you are saying may not be accurate or true.

    As for the argument that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is idol worship, I would ask, what is idol worship? Bowing to a stone that can teach nothing is idol worship. A Sikh prostrates to God alone. Satguru Sri Granth Sahib jee is the ‘Spoken revealed Word’ of God. There is no difference between the Order and Word of God and God Himself. Bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is a sign of submission before the Word of God. It is not worshipping the physical body, be it the Granth (Scripture) form now or when Guru Sahib was in human form the human body, it is a submission to the Shabad (the Divine Infinite Wisdom). If there was a Granth with identical physical characteristics as Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, a Sikh would not bow to it because it does not have the Shabad. Idol worship can only be true if there is in fact an idol. What is being worshipped is the Shabad, which is the revealed Order/Instructions/Word of God and that which offers enlightenment. The Shabad is by no means an idol. Therefore, bowing before the ‘Spoken revealed Word’ of God and submitting to God’s Order is in fact bowing to God. This is clearly different to the stone idols of Hindus, which they worship, bow to and circumambulate seven times, and Muslims who bow to the Kaa’ba and revere the black rock, which they worship, kiss and circumambulate seven times. Now consider what idol worship is and what worship of God is.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    This is actually quite surprising. Most of you are saying that your parents won't accept you marrying a non-Sikh. I would have thought that most Sikh parents would accept.
    Cultural and society difference? Could you please expand on that. And the religious history is nothing. That was all in the past and innocent people are not held accountable.
    I also haven't been raised to hate any other religions too, and in a way it's quite sad to hear that you know some Sikh parents that avoid Muslims.

    And I am just very very very attracted to this girl. Yes her modesty is one thing too, also her character, and I admit her beauty too.

    And don't worry, you'll find a Sikh guy that you like.
    Cultural by language, tradition etc. Society i mean would wider society look down upon you , wider family and friends that would be a biggie for me. I agree with your history part tho

    There are sikh girls that are modest too lol not all of us are the 'asian chavs' you see lol.
    How long have you know her etc.
    Yh i guess you would think theyd accept but tbh being a girl i dont think they would especially with the fear of muslim groomers etc which i know most muslims arent and dont support. Ill say this publically although i dont think i would secretly ive been in a simmilar postion as you. Except we liked each other and not marriage im too young lol. Except with him hes not majorly at all religious and told.me hes facinated by sikhs and even his dad prefers sikhs and indians

    Tbh op , are you definetley sure about this and her asking someone for marriage is no easy walk in the park its for definite.

    Sure enough you like her and are attracted to her.

    Do you know her family and does she know yours all that is key for a marriage

    And during the last 3 years youve known her are you sure youve had enough time to know her? Youll likley be graduating and starting a job etc , its not uncommon to find someone then


    Finally, are you more worried about other peoples reaction or do have some slight small doubts as to whether you fully like her and want a committed future?

    Just some questions i thought might help you think some more.
    Ultimatley, if you know its right , do what YOU think is best.
    Hope this helps

    Keep smiling
    Smile43
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    (Original post by chemting)
    Well Muslims store the Quran in a high place and some cover it up, and they have things like tawiz...

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    The Guru Granth Sahib is the living guru he is an ebodiment of him.
    Not just a divine collection of scriptures. Everyone bows to the Guru Granth Sahib, every gurdwara has a bedroom as such where the Guru is placed at rest.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    That does not refute my fundemental point that respecting the word of Allah is not the same as how Sikhs commit Shirk through the persons behind the Granth.
    My point was why is a book given special treatment, why don't Muslims store computers in a high place and do wudu & be clean before opening Quran verses on the Internet...? They contain the word of god.

    Just like you have mentioned Muslims don't worship the Kaaba its merely a direction rather the object, don't Sikhs believe the book is the word of god - and that they're worshipping the word of god rather than the object?


    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Having read up on this just now, I will concede that there is Ikhtilaaf; I am still of the opinion that it should be avoided. I am not sure how a Taweez is relevant to this discussion though...
    Taweez contains the 'word of god', and it has some intrinsic value... this relates to the point why it is considered idolatry if Sikh worship the 'word of god'. I understand that you think having a tawiz is idolatry so admittedly, you're not the best person to ask specifically about this.



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    • #7
    #7

    (Original post by TheALevelStudent)
    As you have said before, you were not a devout follower of the Sikh religon before you converted to Islam, therefore it is likely that you do not understand all of its teachings and know all of its practices. So you cannot say that the Sikhs beleive a certain thing, just because you thought they did, without knowing the true meaning behind it, when what you are saying may not be accurate or true.

    As for the argument that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is idol worship, I would ask, what is idol worship? Bowing to a stone that can teach nothing is idol worship. A Sikh prostrates to God alone. Satguru Sri Granth Sahib jee is the ‘Spoken revealed Word’ of God. There is no difference between the Order and Word of God and God Himself. Bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is a sign of submission before the Word of God. It is not worshipping the physical body, be it the Granth (Scripture) form now or when Guru Sahib was in human form the human body, it is a submission to the Shabad (the Divine Infinite Wisdom). If there was a Granth with identical physical characteristics as Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, a Sikh would not bow to it because it does not have the Shabad. Idol worship can only be true if there is in fact an idol. What is being worshipped is the Shabad, which is the revealed Order/Instructions/Word of God and that which offers enlightenment. The Shabad is by no means an idol. Therefore, bowing before the ‘Spoken revealed Word’ of God and submitting to God’s Order is in fact bowing to God. This is clearly different to the stone idols of Hindus, which they worship, bow to and circumambulate seven times, and Muslims who bow to the Kaa’ba and revere the black rock, which they worship, kiss and circumambulate seven times. Now consider what idol worship is and what worship of God is.
    Would any other idolator too not argue that they are not worshipping the stone rather only God? Would they not say that they are not necessarily worshipping the physical of the stone rather than what it represents which is one and the same as God? It makes little difference that the word of God (beyond the physical) is considered one with God, because similarly many idolators do not believe the physical stone to be God but the thing it represents is considered one with God too, thus when one bows to the Granth, the Shabad (and thus God beyond the physical), they are doing what idol worshippers do when they bow before stone (and thus God beyond the physical), and it doesn't matter that the stone does not teach anything of words, although you could argue that bowing to the idle, like the Granth, teaches one to submit to God.

    Again, the difference between bowing before the Ka'aba is that in doing so, one is only using it as a direction for prayer, and only kissing it because of love for Islam and this being the 1st temple built for worshipping Allah alone, and not because they believe the Ka'aba itself is one with God.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Would any other idolator too not argue that they are not worshipping the stone rather only God? Would they not say that they are not necessarily worshipping the physical of the stone rather than what it represents which is one and the same as God? It makes little difference that the word of God (beyond the physical) is considered one with God, because similarly many idolators do not believe the physical stone to be God but the thing it represents is considered one with God too, thus when one bows to the Granth, the Shabad (and thus God beyond the physical), they are doing what idol worshippers do when they bow before stone (and thus God beyond the physical), and it doesn't matter that the stone does not teach anything of words, although you could argue that bowing to the idle, like the Granth, teaches one to submit to God.

    Again, the difference between bowing before the Ka'aba is that in doing so, one is only using it as a direction for prayer, and only kissing it because of love for Islam and this being the 1st temple built for worshipping Allah alone, and not because they believe the Ka'aba itself is one with God.
    That's very hypocritical. You say intentions and motivations don't matter when Sikhs worship the granth - instead only the deed itself... but then you say intentions and motivations matter for Muslims ( like for "love of Islam" ) when they circumabulate the Kaaba and kiss the black stone...

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    • #7
    #7

    (Original post by chemting)
    That's very hypocritical. You say intentions and motivations don't matter when Sikhs worship the granth - instead only the deed itself... but then you say intentions and motivations matter for Muslims ( like for "love of Islam" ) when they circumabulate the Kaaba and kiss the black stone...

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    The Ka'aba and the black stone are not considered to be spiritual manifestations of God beyond the physical whereas both the idol and the (Sikh) word of God are considered spiritual manifestations of God beyond the physical, so you are incorrect that my post was hypocritical.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    The Ka'aba and the black stone are not considered to be spiritual manifestations of God beyond the physical whereas both the idol and the (Sikh) word of God are considered spiritual manifestations of God beyond the physical, so you are incorrect that my post was hypocritical.
    The black stone was sent from jannah by Allah. It was whiter than milk but turned black with the sins of people... so that's not beyond physical...?

    https://islamqa.info/en/1902

    Regardless, they are still "worshipped"... (circumabulating and kissing)

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    • #7
    #7

    (Original post by chemting)
    The black stone was sent from jannah by Allah. It was whiter than milk but turned black with the sins of people... so that's not beyond physical...?

    https://islamqa.info/en/1902

    Regardless, they are still "worshipped"... (circumabulating and kissing)

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    Again you ignore that I said "spiritual manifestations *of God*"
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Again you ignore that I said "spiritual manifestations *of God*"
    What does that mean? How is this not ascribing "a partner" to god.

    Oh and btw, what are your views on Taveez? Do you have similar opinions as Zamestaneh?

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    (Original post by chemting)
    What does that mean? How is this not ascribing "a partner" to god.

    Oh and btw, what are your views on Taveez? Do you have similar opinions as Zamestaneh?

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    Idolators believe their idol represents a spiritual form of God (beyond the physical appearance) and similarly Sikhs believe (according to A Level Student) that the word of God is the same as God, therefore the Granth (as the 'word of God' represents a spiritual form of God (beyond the physicality of the Granth). Muslims conversely do not believe that the Ka'aba is a spiritual form of Allah.

    Sorry I am Zamestaneh but for some reason the anonymous box keeps ticking itself... unticked it now finally.
 
 
 
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