Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils? Watch

Poll: Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
Yes (261)
36.1%
No (462)
63.9%
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#141
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#141
(Original post by DanB1991)
But still... what child protection laws disallows them?

The main (well only) disadvantage is kids having sex in the school toilets, which in all honesty happens anyway. What other risks are there that don't normally occur in same gender toilets?
I'm talking about the possibility of less than consensual sex as if a make can walk into a female bathroom who by all means looks like they mean no harm and in most cases don't there is the chance that it is a straight cis male that is looking for a pass into the girls toilets
I guess it's just the kind of people in my leaving establishments that lead me to think about such things but I do tend to think of the worst case scenario
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Optimum_
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#142
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#142
Honestly, I have no clue whatsoever.

I will duck out of this and observe from a distance. Interesting points put forward so far though.
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NekoAngel13
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#143
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#143
It's much easier for them to just use disabled toilets or the facilities of the gender that they present as. My friend has worn the male uniform and used the male facilities all the way through his transition at 16.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."

Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
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Joep95
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#144
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#144
(Original post by NekoAngel13)
It's much easier for them to just use disabled toilets or the facilities of the gender that they present as. My friend has worn the male uniform and used the male facilities all the way through his transition at 16.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."

Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
From what I have seen the tg community want to use the toilets of the gender they present as not forced into a 3rd type
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paul514
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#145
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#145
(Original post by MarleyZ)
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has voted to lobby for better training for staff to support transgender pupils.

Teachers with experience of supporting these pupils have said that changes to toilets, changing rooms and uniforms are more straightforward ways to help - what do you think?

Should these changes be made? ie. all gender toilets and changing rooms
Err nah.

They should be made to use the facilities of their sex.


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Interrobang
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#146
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#146
(Original post by joecphillips)
From what I have seen the tg community want to use the toilets of the gender they present as not forced into a 3rd type
Altho some people have mentioned not feeling comfortable doing that, even if they may want to. Even a simple thing like all the toilets (not the urinals) in the male toilet being out of order
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Implication
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#147
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#147
(Original post by paul514)
Err nah.

They should be made to use the facilities of their sex.


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Why sex rather than gender?
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tazarooni89
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#148
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#148
I feel like we've fallen into a habit of going very far out of our way to be "accommodating" to people with various first world problems, and it's bordering on being unhealthy. An important part of life is you learning to adapt to your environment rather than vice-versa, and when something isn't quite to your specific standards, to be resilient enough to just "deal with it" yourself instead of putting everyone else out.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing for a school to cater for its pupils, but it should be proportionate in terms of cost and effort for the school, the number of pupils who will benefit from it, and the extent to which it is truly a necessity.

For example, it's great to have disabled access for people who would otherwise be literally unable to enter the school building. It's not that difficult for a school to have a vegetarian lunch option for the 1 in 20 people who don't eat meat, so they don't go hungry. But insisting that a school goes through the cost and inconvenience of physically constructing new changing facilities or toilets just because one or two pupils out of thousands feel uncomfortable about their gender seems unreasonable to me.

Schools need to raise pupils, not to be overly sensitive and pampered, but to have a balanced give-and-take relationship with the world and remember they're not that special. But recently, it appears that the our culture is shifting towards one of entitlement, where the whims and feelings of the individual are prioritised above all else. The more we continue indulge this, the more people will start to milk it and the more high-maintenance they'll become.
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paul514
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#149
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#149
(Original post by Implication)
Why sex rather than gender?
Because it's made up in their head


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AlteredBoy
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#150
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#150
(Original post by joecphillips)
From what I have seen the tg community want to use the toilets of the gender they present as not forced into a 3rd type
Nobody is being forced into any bathroom? I'd love a gender neutral loo in college. I don't know how much everyone knows about trans men and the bathroom, but we can get prosthetics that allow us to pee out of them. Ok, yeah, home is the best place to practise with them but we are inevitably gonna need to pee in school at some point. At least if there's a gender neutral bathroom we can use a urinal without being under pressure to get it right with other cis boys in there.
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AlteredBoy
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#151
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#151
(Original post by paul514)
Because it's made up in their head
That's completely wrong. Gender dysphoria may well be a mental condition diagnosable through the DSM, but in no way does that make it 'made up'. Whenever I hear someone say something like that it makes me laugh. Trans people are at a higher risk of self harm or suicide than any other social group. That's not made up. The NHS has provided us with SEVEN gender identity clinics, all of which are under strain from a lack of resources whilst the patient population rises to what is thought to be between 500,000-650,000 people seeking or having competed a gender reassignment in the UK as of 2015. That fails to account for anybody that falls outside of the gender binary.
Do us a favour and google things before you say them. Trans people have been around for centuries. People profit from trans people. There are surgeries specially developed for trans people. Do you really think that would happen if it was all just a made up chapter of our lives?
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Implication
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#152
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#152
(Original post by paul514)
Because it's made up in their head


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Gender is made up?
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Dalek1099
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#153
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#153
(Original post by MarleyZ)
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has voted to lobby for better training for staff to support transgender pupils.

Teachers with experience of supporting these pupils have said that changes to toilets, changing rooms and uniforms are more straightforward ways to help - what do you think?

Should these changes be made? ie. all gender toilets and changing rooms
I think that schools should have to build cubicles for changing I think all children have the right to privacy and that toilets should be all gender.The uniform should either be the same for both genders or scrapped, I think that uniform is sexist as it often allows more freedom for girls(they can wear skirts boys can't wear shorts) and it also makes us conform to the belief that boys should dress this way and girls should dress another way, this is similar to gender roles when you think about it and instills sexism.
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Dalek1099
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#154
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#154
(Original post by Implication)
Gender is made up?
Yes the idea of gender is completely made up, you can't define gender without making sexist stereotypes to basis genders on.The concept of gender causes a lot of sexism today.I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex its due to the discrimination in gender roles, these people should be free to be whoever they are regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.If you are a certain way and you change sex because of it you are discriminating against the sex you change from and saying that if you are that sex you can't be that.
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beccatiger123
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#155
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#155
(Original post by MarleyZ)
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has voted to lobby for better training for staff to support transgender pupils.

Teachers with experience of supporting these pupils have said that changes to toilets, changing rooms and uniforms are more straightforward ways to help - what do you think?

Should these changes be made? ie. all gender toilets and changing rooms

what going on with toliets and changing rooms
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Implication
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#156
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#156
(Original post by Dalek1099)
Yes the idea of gender is completely made up, you can't define gender without making sexist stereotypes to basis genders on.The concept of gender causes a lot of sexism today.I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex its due to the discrimination in gender roles, these people should be free to be whoever they are regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.If you are a certain way and you change sex because of it you are discriminating against the sex you change from and saying that if you are that sex you can't be that.
I do kind of agree, though I wouldn't use the term 'made up'. Gender as distinct from biological sex is at some level just a label, and in a world free from sex-based prejudice and discrimination I do think it would be an unnecessary one.
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caitlinford3
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#157
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#157
It is easy & done to tell a trans person to go to the changing room according to their gender (e.g if they transition to a female, go to a female bathroom) but there are people who are agender (don't class themselves as any one gender) and people who consider themselves to be both gender - having sex separate bathrooms could make this a really difficult/awkward experience for them, so I'd say a unisex bathroom to make their experience a lot more comfortable
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rockrunride
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#158
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#158
Perhaps unisex able-bodied stand-alone toilets as well as accessible stand-alone toilets and the usual male and female communal toilets?

Would cater well to those that like a bit more privacy when doing their business - me included.
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Implication
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#159
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#159
(Original post by rockrunride)
Perhaps unisex able-bodied stand-alone toilets as well as accessible stand-alone toilets and the usual male and female communal toilets?

Would cater well to those that like a bit more privacy when doing their business - me included.
What about a communal sink area and then a bunch of proper cubicles? There could also be a separate section with urinals for anyone to use if necessary.

I really don't see why anyone's gender is remotely relevant to toilet usage except for the fact that it always has been that way.
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rockrunride
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#160
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#160
(Original post by Implication)
What about a communal sink area and then a bunch of proper cubicles? There could also be a separate section with urinals for anyone to use if necessary.

I really don't see why anyone's gender is remotely relevant to toilet usage except for the fact that it always has been that way.
Well, for example at football stadiums if I were a woman I probably wouldn't want to have to compete with alcohol fuelled testosterone, so there is an argument for it - and it reduces the safe space detractors' argument to rubble - but I can definitely see it working in some instances.
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