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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this Watch

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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You are a broken record. If you think sovereignty is an abstract worthless concept you are either very stupid or very self-deceiving. You'd have to ignore all of our history. I feel sorry for you that your mental horizons are that low and demoralized. You keep insisting on this phrase pragmatism, as though it's encapsulation is to vote for holding off a few right wing measure that will happen within the next decade, (thinking purely on a minute timescale), which you have so far mostly not been able to do within the EU, besides small concessions on certain issues, you get the worst of both worlds, and yet you view the continuing erosion of your ability to effect the outcome long term, in which the political winds could just as easily blow right as left all over Europe, which with a look at history and an honest bit of self reflection, is blatantly obvious, as pragmatism.

    Mate, I will not be gutted about the state of the world if we vote in, but I will do away with patriotism, last refuge of the scoundrel remember, I will do away with viewing this as a special place, and merely a patch of land that believes in independence vehemently for all it's former colonies, but hates the idea of it's own. I will seek my fortune elsewhere.

    But, I am still optimistic that won't happen.
    We're not special though.
    Sovereignty is an abstract concept because we, the people, will never have it.
    We get one chance every five year to elect an MP in an undemocratic, unproportional voting system. We don't get more sovereignty, it just makes it easier for Boris Johnson to shred workers' rights.

    Sovereignty is totally abstract. Any trade deal involves giving some away. We live in a globalised world.

    I'd far rather have workers' rights than abstract concepts.
    You strike me as the type of person who'd vote Green in a labour-tory marginal. Someone who'd put idealism over pragmatism. Someone who'd rather remain 'pure' while watching the most vulnerable suffer then be prepared to compromise and help the vulenrable.

    You strike me as the type of belligerent leftie who'd rather spend his whole life shouting from the opposition benches rather than actually ever gaining power.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Why do workers unions support Brexit then?

    Do you think we'll never be able to petition and bend our duly elected Parliament if we leave?

    What would you do if the European Parliament and Commission consisted of UKIP, AfD, FN, Golden Dawn etc as it increasingly is?

    Spiting thousands of years of democracy because you don't like one election result is childish.
    He keeps calling it pragmatic as though three years of a government in power, which the EU supposedly tempers so much, is the real determinent of how people in this country live, and what they should base a vote on their whole future on. This argument is miserly and visionless, it has defeatism all over it. This is what remain is like, they are so arrogant and condescending they can just dismiss the concept of independence and democracy as the preserve history as the concerns of children just for their own self serving ultra short termism.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Northern Irish Public Services Alliance
    Irish Congress of Trade Unions' Northern Ireland Committee
    Rail Union RMT
    Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union

    etc etc

    The tories are not our only government, we have Labour MPs in the commons and in four years the parliament will change. Grow up and stop being so impatient. A convenient tyranny < An inconvenient Democracy.
    We're decades away from a labour government.

    No. I'd rather be fed in an autocracy than starve in a democracy. I'd rather be kept safe in an autocracy than persecuted in a democracy.

    Democracy is not always best.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We're decades away from a labour government.

    No. I'd rather be fed in an autocracy than starve in a democracy. I'd rather be kept safe in an autocracy than persecuted in a democracy.

    Democracy is not always best.
    Would you like to show me a surviving autocracy which manages those things?

    The Islamic State, perhaps?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We're not special though.
    Sovereignty is an abstract concept because we, the people, will never have it.
    We get one chance every five year to elect an MP in an undemocratic, unproportional voting system. We don't get more sovereignty, it just makes it easier for Boris Johnson to shred workers' rights.

    Sovereignty is totally abstract. Any trade deal involves giving some away. We live in a globalised world.

    I'd far rather have workers' rights than abstract concepts.
    You strike me as the type of person who'd vote Green in a labour-tory marginal. Someone who'd put idealism over pragmatism. Someone who'd rather remain 'pure' while watching the most vulnerable suffer then be prepared to compromise and help the vulenrable.

    You strike me as the type of belligerent leftie who'd rather spend his whole life shouting from the opposition benches rather than actually ever gaining power.

    Sovereignty isn't for the people though, it is for the government the people elect, I don't see how that is an abstract concept. I agree that the system needs reform, but it is better than a completely unelected european commission. Ad hominems don't help your argument either.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We're not special though.
    Sovereignty is an abstract concept because we, the people, will never have it.
    We get one chance every five year to elect an MP in an undemocratic, unproportional voting system. We don't get more sovereignty, it just makes it easier for Boris Johnson to shred workers' rights.

    Sovereignty is totally abstract. Any trade deal involves giving some away. We live in a globalised world.

    I'd far rather have workers' rights than abstract concepts.
    You strike me as the type of person who'd vote Green in a labour-tory marginal. Someone who'd put idealism over pragmatism. Someone who'd rather remain 'pure' while watching the most vulnerable suffer then be prepared to compromise and help the vulenrable.

    You strike me as the type of belligerent leftie who'd rather spend his whole life shouting from the opposition benches rather than actually ever gaining power.
    You strike me as a patronising idiot who makes false presumptions. I wouldn't vote for Labour and Tory in the previous years, i'd be more inclined to vote UKIP to get to this. This is nothing to do with left or right. And stop using the self fulfilling prophecy rhetoric about what we won't get, it's bs because liberty and democracy have to be faught for, they evolve and adapt over time, you will have less and less ability to do this and more stagnation in the EU, and when you say all trade deals mean giving away sovereignty, this is utter rubbish, this is only the EU's case, their model which is authoritarian, like with the root of all their ideas. No other trade deals mean trading sovereignty or migrants. But you won't help workers or the vulnerable or our own people, and the job of any nation that has not lost it's sanity is to protect it's own national interests and people, with a never ending tide of wage compressed migrant labour, impossible housing situation, all designed to suit the super rich and corporations getting richer and richer while our country becomes a dumping ground and a hotel loved only as convenience for corporations, the rich, and lovers of multiculturalism.

    No, I'd rather not be within a consensus that offers nothing, no vision and total self-destruction and cynicism, I'd rather be in power in a changing country. I'm not leftie, I'm to the left on economics, I don't support mass immigration, unlike you I suspect, and have some socially conservative beliefs. I'd be closer to some past Tories actually, whereas I suspect you are closer to Blair.

    And why are you lecturing me on being the type who'd never want power. That back bencher you talk of--that's how much power we have in the world and Europe, if we remain. The Eu will break up the union of the UK gradually too, which will be increasingly irrelevant anyhow by that point.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So? Sometimes different people politic coalesce over a certain issue, nothing illogical about that, because it's about nuance and complexity. I can't stand knee jerk tribalism because it so frequently misses the point and so frequently can't see the wrong it's doing. A perfect example is how Hijacking of the labour party by economic thatcherites(actually to the right of her on tax, lessening social mobility too) who are perceived as doing more for the poor than the Tories by default. They have damaged democracy and more insidiously created inequality and lack of social mobility over 13 years governance.
    Rupert Murdoch, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove collectively have about the same degree of nuance and complexity about them as a sock with half a brick in it.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We're not special though.
    People with your views who currently, only currently, though it has been a long haul sadly, have the influence in the UK, have been and are determined, totally determined for this to be the case. As to why, I have no idea. I'm convinced there has been a rising tide of spite and self-destruction in the people running this country, and I think many patriotic people are seeing that this is the end of it and something has to change. Yes, I think that people like you want this to be true and hate this country.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Rupert Murdoch, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove collectively have about the same degree of nuance and complexity about them as a sock with half a brick in it.
    That's your view, Gove is much more intelligent and interesting than David Cameron, but besides that it is not a personality contest, differing people are on the same side over one issue, for different reasons, so what really?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    That's your view, Gove is much more intelligent and interesting than David Cameron, but besides that it is not a personality contest, differing people are on the same side over one issue, for different reasons, so what really?
    Yes, I know it's my view. Thanks for reminding me though.

    Please clarify your question. I can see that question mark but have no idea what I'm being asked.
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    Like how the exponential progress of climate change which we are on the brink of now(see the past figures on winter at the poles?) is being ignored too. Can you imagine, if Greece and Southern Spain are like that now, after 10-50 years more climate change. You'll be tying yourself to deserts that might descend into civil wars.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Yes, I know it's my view. Thanks for reminding me though.

    Please clarify your question. I can see that question mark but have no idea what I'm being asked.
    It wasn't really a question, I didn't know why you had raised the individuals, I don't think this issue or my vote will be anything to do with such things.
    Just so what that those people or on that side? Why not just judge the argument not the political views on other issues or what you think of their intellects. It's totally independent.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It wasn't really a question, I didn't know why you had raised the individuals, I don't think this issue or my vote will be anything to do with such things.
    Just so what that those people or on that side? Why not just judge the argument not the political views on other issues or what you think of their intellects. It's totally independent.
    I was just struck by the inference that any of those three had an ounce of subtlety or insight between them. It felt worth commenting on.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Like how the exponential progress of climate change which we are on the brink of now(see the past figures on winter at the poles?) is being ignored too. Can you imagine, if Greece and Southern Spain are like that now, after 10-50 years more climate change. You'll be tying yourself to deserts that might descend into civil wars.
    So you trust the hard right tories on climate change?
    You need to wake up. FFS look at the people you're associating with. The far right and far left really are one and the same.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So you trust the hard right tories on climate change?
    You need to wake up. FFS look at the people you're associating with. The far right and far left really are one and the same.
    Do you trust UKIP, Alternativ fur Deutschland, Front Nationale etc on climate change?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So you trust the hard right tories on climate change?
    You need to wake up. FFS look at the people you're associating with. The far right and far left really are one and the same.
    You've ignored my point, I talked about literally what would happen to southern Europe. China has 1/5 of the worlds population and is buliding coal fired power stations, if we stopped all emissions now you'd still have massive warming, we are so far past the point of being able to say, curb emissions we'll hold it off...it is fantasy. Like everything else, there's is some serious head-burying going on.
    I don't care about the so-called 'far rights' positions on climate change, it makes not an iota of difference to whats going to happen, all so-called centrists believe in fracking and wars for oil, but it's all academic, it doesn't matter where you are on the political spectrum, we will burn all the fossil fuels, and even if we tried to stop it, which is impossible because developing economies with rising populations need them, and our climate is going to heat massively. Even if we stopped all emissions, we'd heat massively over coming decades, and that is impossible, and has absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. Why do yuo keep bypassing fact or logic?Explain to me in concrete terms how EU membership would effect carbon emissions, or climate change when we and even the EU are small percentage of them, and when we are so far down that path? You can't, because it's just another platitude, a non argument shoved down Brexits throat to try and make us look like you have all the answers, dig deeper and there's no logic. Stop calling me far left please, a)It's not relevant to this debate on independence,
    b)it's total nonsense and inaccurate, not to mention a smear thrown about by enthusiastic neoliberals. Thatcher's tax rate on the rich would be extreme economic leftism nowadays, and that is an indisputable fact, that's how far you so-called moderates who claim to care about poverty have sold out, and how insane and indoctrinated we have bcome. So long a gay people marry we can create ghettos and destitute people living off communist style food donations(it's only the left that make people poor, right?) then the modern centrists/centre/left whatever, feel their mission is working.


    You're right, I should look at my associations, I should listen to the American from JP Morgan on 25mil a year when he tells me where my best interests lie.
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    I do not buy the argument that there is someone with a crystal ball saying TTIP will happen regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.
    Its a completely disingenuos statement.
    Lets face it.
    Its a guess. Thats all.
    There is no treaty saying that.

    If we stay in the EU TTIP will be introduced. That Is my guess. There are tens of thousands of corporate lobbyists, who lobby the EU. It will make large insurance companies a mint, and if we are IN the EU, we will not have a voice. At least if we are out, and the Tories suggest fully privatising the NHS, they know they will lose the election and the majority of the country will turn on them.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I was just struck by the inference that any of those three had an ounce of subtlety or insight between them. It felt worth commenting on.
    Ok, I think Gove is thoughtful. Murdoch wants it in his interests, that are different to my reasons, obviously. When I look at Farage, or Galloway, whatever you think of them, and the guy above says far left and far right meet, I think thats untrue, but I will say I see independent brains and people who don't much like being sheep and living in a stifled, thought controlled world of endless consensus that tries to look like it isn't authoritarianism, but that hates freedom. Witness the difficulty of objective argument, outwith the bounds of narrow stricture for acceptable views,the media and political classes treatment of it and the 'knowing best for you' nature of everything that you hear. A purely empirical take ust shows me which side is oppressive, and negative...but I've felt like this about the political class for so long now, and it's not just over Europe. Someone above said in the course of these arguments that authoritarian means to bring about 'liberal ends'(actually social and economic liberalism) makes you a liberal. I think it makes you authoritarian, and it's all I ever see in so many people and in our political class. They don't want objective argument, they want people told. They hate free thinkers. Just watching question time the last god knows how many years is so goddamn depressing. You might get a journalist or writer or actor who shows them how utterly incapable they are of accepting a other argument or uttering a single independent thought. Or it might be a political fringe figure, who has no main party line to tow, although witness how perfectly moderate and rational, principled arguments by them are ignored or discredited by the supposedly independent media, how their characters are smeared as soon as they enter the fray, even though far many more of the public are on their side, the political and media class working continually to tell you it isn't the truth, and get and get you back to believing what you are supposed to. Thought crimes are not quite a literal phenomenon, largely but they are insidiously and subtly implied a lot. This is all compatible with the Eu and Blairism, which had eurocommunist strains, I'm talking independent of tax rates or inequality. He even talked of 'libetarian nonsense' which shows you where he stands, and what he did to liberty is evident, now our politicians, including in Europe, want more of the same, and less and less democracy. Britain did not become great or found the freest countries in the world or reject fascism or abolish slavery because of this tendency to obey authority unconditionally, to give the maverick or eccentric or contrarian no chance, and to revel in stifling conformity, this is a depressing development and in terms of this debate, it's very clear to me which side represents oppression, fear, authoritarianism, and accepting a stifling conformist consensus, one more reason why I will definitely be voting Brexit.
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    (Original post by Rover73)
    I do not buy the argument that there is someone with a crystal ball saying TTIP will happen regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.
    Its a completely disingenuos statement.
    Lets face it.
    Its a guess. Thats all.
    There is no treaty saying that.

    If we stay in the EU TTIP will be introduced. That Is my guess.
    So it is disingenuous to "guess" that some outcome will happen under one condition, but not under another?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    So it is disingenuous to "guess" that some outcome will happen under one condition, but not under another?
    He said that it is disingenuous to argue the point as if we know it is what will happen, when it is just a guess.

    He didn't say it was the guessing itself that was disingenuous.
 
 
 
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