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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Islam is more about justice. As a woman I can't be ignorant and say we should be absolutely equal to men, and vice versa. If I do then I expect no gender segregation at all, not even the toilets. Also with clothing.
    You obviously aren't aware of the increasing number of unisex toilets in public places.

    Also, there is a difference between providing separate facilities and enforced segregation.

    The "Oh, if we allow women to pray at the front, then men and women should be made to wear the same shoes, or it would be sexual inequality" agument is just ridiculous.
    Men and women can (and do) wear the same shoes - if they want to. And if they don't want to, they don't have to. Why can the same not apply to praying at the front (for example)?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I think it is best if you do go talk to a scholar or imam

    So it is better to go ask someone knowledgeable
    And if you think that the Nazis were a bit naughty, just ask Joseph Goebbels, he'll put you right.
    And not keen on Stalin? Just ask a Communist Party Political Commissar. All doubts dealt with by someone who knows the truth.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    So...if you were a soldier....you would take a slave or it would be ok to take a slave?
    Nope and see that's where morality comes into play - i personally wouldn't feel comfortable owning a slave 1400 years ago it was fine just like 400 years ago owning a black slave was too.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Salaam

    There is much to comment on here but the main thing I can comment on is that you have the wrong approach to religion but you haven't realised. A person does not agree or disagree with a religion based solely on subjectively moral issues, rather they affirm that the basis of the religion is correct or incorrect first before you look at rules.

    Let's look at the time of revelation: the Prophet (SAW) spent the majority of his years in Mecca preaching Tawheed (the oneness of God) and the foundations of belief - this meant people's hearts softened to the message of Islam, and they developed the the understanding of reliance upon Allah and submitting to whatever He decreed and whatever the Prophet commanded thereby.
    After they moved to Madinah, that is when the Islamic community had grown and their hearts were fertile soil to develop the rules and regulations of the Muslims - in the Quran, the verses which often mention rules state "Ahayu aladheena amaanu" - "O you who have believed" - showing that the rules are for those who were already firm in faith.

    What I subsequently advise is you affirm the foundations of your belief - be confident that God exists, be confident that Islam is the religion of God, be confident that the Quran is the word of God, and when you are convinced that it is from Allah, then you don't need to worry if the finer rules are sexist or not or whatever. All of the topics you mention in the OP do not affect if Islam is the truth, rather they are topics that you just dont feel comfortable with, but they do not make Islam any less true. If these topics of subjective morality define whether you believe or not, then you have already conceded your belief in that you think your logic, understanding and personal morals are greater than those of your Creator who has rules in place because He is All Wise.

    Build your faith from the bottom up (with the foundations), don't destroy it from the top down (with stuff that comes after belief like rules). May Allah guide you and us all.
    Or to put your argument another way - once you are a true believer, you can justify any atrocity and barbarity, as long as you have convinced yourself that it is sanctioned by god.

    Which, ironically, is exactly the justification ISIS usees, and the argument some Muslims on TSR use for supporting slavery, stoning of adulterers, etc.

    Or to put it yet another way, killing all them Jews was just fine because the Nazis genuinely believed in Hitler and his message.

    You do realise that all you have done is justify Islamist extremism?
    Or perhaps that was your intention?
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    (Original post by sulaimanali)
    I don't care what Buddhism is or was. Islam is the religion of peace. Period.
    Yeah. Except it isnt.
    You should read the Quran.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Are you a troll or not because you seem to be disregarding responses to you...
    Exactly.
    "Fair" =/= "Islamic fair"
    "Merciful" =/= "Islamic merciful"
    "Just" =/= "Islamic just"
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    (Original post by Paniniception)
    But loads of scholars are wahabbis from Saudi who are misogynistic, even their female clerics are! I'm Shia Muslim and we are a bit different
    But the clear permission to use captives for sex is from the Quran and sunnah, not from the writings of Mohammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Islam acknowledges that men and women are different and therefore Allah, out of His wisdom, has allocated specific roles and responsibilities (and therefore different rights) for each gender which best fits with the inherent nature of most men and women. Where you have an issue with 'inequality' is essentially a matter of you assuming men and women are the same in every single way in their most basic nature, therefore any differences in rights, roles and responsibilities you find to be a deviation from this innate equality, but the reality is that our most basic nature we are different.

    I will give a very very simple example:

    On the whole, men tend to be naturally more agressive and stronger than females (obviously there are exceptions, but this is the norm). As a result men are predisposed to assuming more responsibility when it comes to warfare and protection; how are men and women truly 'equal' to start with? The answer is that fundamentally there are innate differences between men and women, and sure there are innate similarities or times when men can exceed in a quality that women are predisposed to be better in, and women can exceed in quality that men are predisposed to be better in, but this is not the norm; one might claim Spartan women are equal to the men for example, but the men are still stronger even if the women have made up for the shortfall in their basic strength.



    There are no 'contradictions' that cannot be reconciled with understanding. The verse means that one cannot force someone to become Muslim; are you familiar with the comparison between publicised apostasy/rebellion in an Islamic state and treason? In such a case, punishment for treason does not in itself contradict a lack of compulsion in religion. In any case, a person can leave a religious state if they so strongly disagree with the religion - it's what I would do, and I wouldn't care so much that I would have to leave my family behind, not because I don't love them but because truth comes over blood ties and memories.



    This is a rather emotional objection (rather than one of reason) by you, and I think the vast majority of Muslims have enjoyed music at some point (and perhaps still continue to); however if you really reflect on the matter, its general prohibition makes a lot of sense. Music is generally a distraction which people spend hours listening to - imagine how many years of their lives will have been wasted with music by the time they die? That time could have been spent more productively in acts of ibadah or in better things in the dunya... But let's ignore those who listen to music at the moment, let's focus on those who make it: they waste so much more of their time practicing and learning how to play instruments and songs, and then they distract others. Imagine a person spent their whole time gambling until they had mastered card-counting for example, therefore maximising their chances of winning and minimising their losses. This gambler seldom loses and only ever makes money on most days. He gives the money directly to his friends who know very well where the money came from, but does this make it halal? Obviously not. Similarly a musician spends all their time practicing (thus making negligent use of their time), then they give their music to others for them to enjoy/distract them - does this suddenly make it the music halal to listen to because the listener doesn't waste as much time as the musicians themselves? Obviously not... I can go into why even religious music (with instruments) is prohibited also if you wish, but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited.

    About the second part, those who believe in Islam and are firm in faith know that there is the hereafter and therefore it does not dishearten them so much that they cannot enjoy the haram of this life; you appear to be wavering in faith at the moment so that is why you are unsure of the rules - I think it is because you are too converned with the dunya at the moment.
    Even dr.nakir, TSR saviour agrees that sex slaves are permissible, I just watchec his video on YouTube. Don't you consider that rape? Why would God allow such a thing? How is that peaceful? Why are there so many contradictions, we can't even agree on a date for Eid. [/quote]

    Sex with slaves is permissible (although rape is not). Slaves are prisoners of war in Islam, and I would argue that slaves in Islam 1400 years ago were treated better than prisoners of war over the last 100 years. I have not known modern prisoners of war to be permitted the same quality of clothing and food as their captors, allowed to have spouses, allowed to be incorporated into society, be treated respectfully, allowed to have position of authority even over free people etc; instead modern POWs are given a jumpsuit, cramped cells, lesser quality food (than that of those who have captured them), kept away from society, segregated from the opposite gender, treated as bags of meat and bone instead of as human beings etc. Now I am not saying that slavery in Islam is all rosey, as indeed it can still be difficult upon the enslaved, but I think people just see the word 'slave' and get some social warrior complex and have to try to denounce Islamic slavery as barbaric when I would argue that it isn't as morally and logically bad as they make out - the label of 'slave' is worse than POW; the conditions of a POW are worse than a slave...



    I am not sure what this has to do with Islam itself and your objections to it - rather that shows a flaw within the people themselves which I agree with you on. People should strive to understand the Quran.



    The main reason the Quran highlights that the non-Muslims give the angels female names is because the Quraysh used to say that the angels were the daughters of Allah, yet many people would loath having daughters themselves, and some would bury them alive. This objection is therefore saying that they believe daughters are good enough for God but not for themselves, therefore it is a disgusting shame on them and hypocrisy for believing that.

    Again my advice is to go to basics and understand how the religion itself is truth before you delve into the finer rules, because it appears that you don't have firm foundations, so pushing the walls of a building with weak pillars will only cause the building to collapse on you.[/QUOTE]



    Oh boy what a load of tosh.


    So firstly sure men and women have differences and that is not a bad thing nor should it be ignored, but you have to remember that These differences do not warrent Women wearing veils women not having sex before marriage, not being allowed to go out without a male escort or not being able to drive cars, this is pure sexism and is pretty vile.

    You have the moronic leaders saying that women cannot drive due to seatbelts hurting their wombs and ovaries, this is a load of *******s and only a idiot would say this. They talk about how women should not go out as it is dangerous, you see how these idiotic leaders try and spin everything to be "oh we are doing it for the best as it is helping women"


    So yes lets talk about those vile evils of..... Music. Music is something that brings people together and has done many wonders for the world. but no its evil as it distracts people, do you know what else distracts people for a long time. praying 5 times a day. and yes people do listen to music but if you think loads of people go ok I am going to sit here with some music on and do nothing then you are crazy, most people do it while doing other things, Driving the car, pop the radio on, doing the dishes, cleaning cooking writing or just as some ambience. And music makes many people happy, something allah does not like, people having fun.

    and those musicians who are "wasting" their time normally do it because they enjoy it and make millions of other people happy and many musicians donate money to charity and good causes. and your idea about gambling sure gambling is not the best thing to do but now and then it is fun and as long as you know your limits it is fine, and card counting does not take too long to learn, I know how to count cards and it took me less than 2 months to get good at it, granted I am not the best at it, and for many gambling is a bit of fun, once again something the big guy in the sky does not like.


    and sure things can take over peoples lives much like how Religion can ruin and take over peoples lives and both are bad, but many people are not obsessed with music or gambling so your point is invalid. and you think that sitting in a room praying is a more valuable use of time. pff

    "but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited"

    No no it is not it is completely irrational




    Now I do not care what someone says about sex slaves being fine He is wrong slavery in all kinds in wrong and no your prisoners were not treated how you suggest and far worse than today.

    "(than that of those who have captured them), kept away from society, segregated from the opposite gender, treated as bags of meat and bone instead of as human beings etc"
    I am glad prisoners are treated better than women in islam




    SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    That isnt the point I was making. Rather I meant was that some people have read the Quran in arabic without ever understanding what they recite, therefore they don't benefit from the Quran or learn anything, instead taking knowledge from elders and Imams rather reading for themselves (even a translation) and developing a basic understanding.
    i think the points been made before tho, that the qurans been translated millions of times and inteprated even more than that over the centuries, with various narratives, analysis and and theories of hundreds of claimed experts. you are saying they should just read it and understand it- clearly that isnt possible. its not really been written in a way thats easily to follow for a non-arab native
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Islam acknowledges that men and women are different and therefore Allah, out of His wisdom, has allocated specific roles and responsibilities (and therefore different rights) for each gender which best fits with the inherent nature of most men and women. Where you have an issue with 'inequality' is essentially a matter of you assuming men and women are the same in every single way in their most basic nature, therefore any differences in rights, roles and responsibilities you find to be a deviation from this innate equality, but the reality is that our most basic nature we are different.

    I will give a very very simple example:

    On the whole, men tend to be naturally more agressive and stronger than females (obviously there are exceptions, but this is the norm). As a result men are predisposed to assuming more responsibility when it comes to warfare and protection; how are men and women truly 'equal' to start with? The answer is that fundamentally there are innate differences between men and women, and sure there are innate similarities or times when men can exceed in a quality that women are predisposed to be better in, and women can exceed in quality that men are predisposed to be better in, but this is not the norm; one might claim Spartan women are equal to the men for example, but the men are still stronger even if the women have made up for the shortfall in their basic strength.



    There are no 'contradictions' that cannot be reconciled with understanding. The verse means that one cannot force someone to become Muslim; are you familiar with the comparison between publicised apostasy/rebellion in an Islamic state and treason? In such a case, punishment for treason does not in itself contradict a lack of compulsion in religion. In any case, a person can leave a religious state if they so strongly disagree with the religion - it's what I would do, and I wouldn't care so much that I would have to leave my family behind, not because I don't love them but because truth comes over blood ties and memories.



    This is a rather emotional objection (rather than one of reason) by you, and I think the vast majority of Muslims have enjoyed music at some point (and perhaps still continue to); however if you really reflect on the matter, its general prohibition makes a lot of sense. Music is generally a distraction which people spend hours listening to - imagine how many years of their lives will have been wasted with music by the time they die? That time could have been spent more productively in acts of ibadah or in better things in the dunya... But let's ignore those who listen to music at the moment, let's focus on those who make it: they waste so much more of their time practicing and learning how to play instruments and songs, and then they distract others. Imagine a person spent their whole time gambling until they had mastered card-counting for example, therefore maximising their chances of winning and minimising their losses. This gambler seldom loses and only ever makes money on most days. He gives the money directly to his friends who know very well where the money came from, but does this make it halal? Obviously not. Similarly a musician spends all their time practicing (thus making negligent use of their time), then they give their music to others for them to enjoy/distract them - does this suddenly make it the music halal to listen to because the listener doesn't waste as much time as the musicians themselves? Obviously not... I can go into why even religious music (with instruments) is prohibited also if you wish, but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited.

    About the second part, those who believe in Islam and are firm in faith know that there is the hereafter and therefore it does not dishearten them so much that they cannot enjoy the haram of this life; you appear to be wavering in faith at the moment so that is why you are unsure of the rules - I think it is because you are too converned with the dunya at the moment.

    Oh boy what a load of tosh.


    So firstly sure men and women have differences and that is not a bad thing nor should it be ignored, but you have to remember that These differences do not warrent Women wearing veils women not having sex before marriage, not being allowed to go out without a male escort or not being able to drive cars, this is pure sexism and is pretty vile.

    You have the moronic leaders saying that women cannot drive due to seatbelts hurting their wombs and ovaries, this is a load of *******s and only a idiot would say this. They talk about how women should not go out as it is dangerous, you see how these idiotic leaders try and spin everything to be "oh we are doing it for the best as it is helping women"


    So yes lets talk about those vile evils of..... Music. Music is something that brings people together and has done many wonders for the world. but no its evil as it distracts people, do you know what else distracts people for a long time. praying 5 times a day. and yes people do listen to music but if you think loads of people go ok I am going to sit here with some music on and do nothing then you are crazy, most people do it while doing other things, Driving the car, pop the radio on, doing the dishes, cleaning cooking writing or just as some ambience. And music makes many people happy, something allah does not like, people having fun.

    and those musicians who are "wasting" their time normally do it because they enjoy it and make millions of other people happy and many musicians donate money to charity and good causes. and your idea about gambling sure gambling is not the best thing to do but now and then it is fun and as long as you know your limits it is fine, and card counting does not take too long to learn, I know how to count cards and it took me less than 2 months to get good at it, granted I am not the best at it, and for many gambling is a bit of fun, once again something the big guy in the sky does not like.


    and sure things can take over peoples lives much like how Religion can ruin and take over peoples lives and both are bad, but many people are not obsessed with music or gambling so your point is invalid. and you think that sitting in a room praying is a more valuable use of time. pff

    "but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited"

    No no it is not it is completely irrational




    Now I do not care what someone says about sex slaves being fine He is wrong slavery in all kinds in wrong and no your prisoners were not treated how you suggest and far worse than today.

    "(than that of those who have captured them), kept away from society, segregated from the opposite gender, treated as bags of meat and bone instead of as human beings etc"
    I am glad prisoners are treated better than women in islam
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Personally I don't believe in the Hadith that Aisha was 6 years old when she got married due to it's inconsistencies and contradictions (which are A LOT) with other Hadiths, even though it's sahih, I still think it needs to be thoroughly examined.
    Hold on just a minute!

    You don't believe several hadith because they contradict some lesser records*.
    But you do believe the lesser records, despite them being contradicted by several sahih hadith?
    That doesn't sound right. :confused:

    * The argument from sister's ages and dates, etc is not even based on hadith, some of it is from later, biographical material.
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    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    @Anonymous #108
    Not the best response bro, there are times to be strong but also times to be subtle.
    She's on the verge of leaving islam so it should be handled with abit more empathy towards her case right?
    Wassalam
    Yeah, don't be too honest bro, just say whatever it takes to stop her leaving. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, inshallah.
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    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    What i meant was:
    Those rules are valid, for now and forever.
    But the thing is - i am not using them in todays day and age because it says it's permissable for you to take a slave after war - but i don't see any war coming within my lifetime??
    That's what i meant by "those rules will never be used in my life time" and btw they're not compulsory like i have to pray salah 5 x
    But where Muslims are involved in conflict, you support their god given right to take slaves and have sex with them. Like waht ISIS are doing.

    See, there's the problem. You pretend to condemn it when in reality, you are condoning it.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Yeah, don't be too honest bro, just say whatever it takes to stop her leaving. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, inshallah.
    Lmfao i won't even bother with you 😂
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    (Original post by QE2)
    But where Muslims are involved in conflict, you support their god given right to take slaves and have sex with them. Like waht ISIS are doing.

    See, there's the problem. You pretend to condemn it when in reality, you are condoning it.
    It's sad that you and so many others believe isis are muslims just because they kill in the name of allah. I wouldn't spit on them - frankly they're backwards, barbaric and have nothing to do with islam...
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    No, most evidence points to the fact that she was around her late teens at the least. You obviously didn't research my statement one bit and assumed she was still pre-pubescent to fit your view on this topic of child marriages people keep blabbering about on the internet.
    Wrong. There is absolutely no "evidence" (in the Islamic sense) that she was in her late teens. The only explicit evidence of her age is from several sahih hadith (some actually narrated by Aisha herself) that clearly state that she was 6 at marriage and 9 at consummation.
    Remember that one of the arguments given by apolohists for her being chosed by Allah as a bride for Muhammad was her remarkable memory.

    Your "evidence" relies on inferals and calculations based on a variety of sources, none of which are as reliable or authentic as the sahih hadith and all of which need to be more reliable in order for the argument to be valid.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I like how all the non-muslims/atheists come running to bash islam but when it is about another religion no one cares and can't be bothered even criticising it. I have noticed the muslims don't take on that behaviour thankfully. Shows quite a lot about them.
    Criticising Christianity has been done to death, and it has been through its reformation and enlightenment. You just don't find Christians on TSR claiming that the more unpleasant verses of the Old Testament still apply today.

    However, on TSR, we have Muslims claiming that slavery, sex slaves, wife beating, etc are all acceptable because they are permitted in the Quran.

    And of course, we have the constant "But Islam is teh Religion of Peace" *******s. It is our civic duty to correct that every time we see it.

    If you want to see less criticism of Islam, then I would quote Homer...
    "If you're gonna get mad at me every time I do something stupid, I guess I'm gonna have to stop doing stupid things".
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    (Original post by Khizer.M)
    Nope and see that's where morality comes into play - i personally wouldn't feel comfortable owning a slave 1400 years ago it was fine just like 400 years ago owning a black slave was too.
    so you saying modern morality should superceed the quran as a muslim?
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    The main reason the Quran highlights that the non-Muslims give the angels female names is because the Quraysh used to say that the angels were the daughters of Allah, yet many people would loath having daughters themselves,
    Evidence for this? The Quran only mentions female infanticide caused by necessity through poverty, not a dislike of daughters.

    and some would bury them alive.
    And yet, there were still more women than men (remember that Muhammad restricted polygamy to 4 wives, before that Quraysh could have any number of wives).
    How could this be if daughters were regularly killed?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Wrong. There is absolutely no "evidence" (in the Islamic sence) that she was in her late teens. The only explicit evidence of her age is from several sahih hadith (some actually narrated by Aisha herself) that clearly state that she was 6 at marriage and 9 at consummation.
    Remember that one of the arguments given by apolohists for her being chosed by Allah as a bride for Muhammad was her remarkable memory.

    Your "evidence" relies on inferals and calculations based on a variety of sources, none of which are as reliable or authentic as the sahih hadith and all of which need to be more reliable in order for the argument to be valid.
    But you're forgetting how contradictory some of these hadiths are with her age. It just doesn't add up. I think scholars really need to sit down and re examine these 'Sahih' hadiths.

    Examination of the various narrations of the ‘six-nine’ hadith confirms that the numbers are approximations.

    For example, al-Bayhaqi reports that Aisha said, “The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) married me…when I was six or seven years old…”

    Ibn Sa`d relates from two of the leading authorities on Aisha’s hadith narrations, al-Zuhri and Hisham ibn `Urwah, who both said that she married the Prophet (peace be upon him) when she was nine or seven years of age.

    This shows that even the narrations from Aisha are not consistent, and the age at which the betrothal took place varies between six, seven and nine years of age. The Arabs’ conceptualisation of numbers was primitive, and the single units, i.e. one, two, three…nine, were closer to their understanding.

    Aisha is unlikely to have known her age, and her intention was to emphasise that she was young at the time of her marriage, as is clear from the context of her speech. In mathematically-naive societies, numbers were often not used in a precise numerical sense, but as adjectives. The most primitive numbers, one and two, still take the grammatical form of adjectives in Arabic to this day.
 
 
 
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