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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Communism is the correct way forward for humanity. Few would agree with me, at least not to this extremity, but I can assure you that it is. Please feel free to discuss this - it is very close to my heart.
    It's not, just look at Cuba. It's an example of how communism does not work. Where trained Medical Doctors end up working as taxi drivers because the pay is better. The state pays waged so low that the small amount taxi drivers earn via private business seems like a jackpot to even intelligent skilled workers.

    Socialism is the best way to go !
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    I'm not so sure it's dangerous, but I'd agree that it's unattainable. Ultimately, any true free-market capitalist society inevitably becomes corporatist because it's in the interests of those at the top of the food chain to conspire to their own benefit, and a free-market economy affords them the ability to do this. But then, I'm not advocating free-market capitalism; I'm simply opposed to communism.

    One of the biggest problems with communism is a mirror image of the problems of free-market capitalism. Because just as free-market capitalism all but inevitable leads to corporatism, communism almost certainly requires a totalitarian regime to enforce it. I mean, what do you do if in your communist society some genius brain surgeon decides to start selling his service instead of offering it to everyone as he should? What if all the brain surgeons decide that they aren't going to work for the same pittance than some courier is getting paid? The only way to deal with this in a communist state is to force them to work, and hey presto, we've got ourselves a dictatorship.
    That's why a prerequisite for successful communism is for everyone to consider the greater good a higher incentive than their own personal gain. It seems outlandish but why not at least experiment with whether children are born greedy? If they were brought up to support each other perhaps communism could work and poverty be ended.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Communism is the correct way forward for humanity. Few would agree with me, at least not to this extremity, but I can assure you that it is. Please feel free to discuss this - it is very close to my heart.
    Consider this:

    Communism itself does not erase the class struggle, as it proclaims, but keeps it going. It does this because it is a government: there must be a group of people in charge, and it’s likely that this group enjoys its power. By maintaining their power, the leaders of a Communist state separate the population into at least two classes: themselves as the upper class, and preferably everyone else in the lower class.Communist states have generally not featured a middle class—and its absence allowed for the Russian Revolutions of 1905 and 1917; the Chinese of 1949, the Cuban of 1953-59, and a host of others. All of these revolutions ended with the rise of a Communist state—and all of them were the ruin of their respective nations, because the Communists themselves became the very same brand of elitist upper class they had deposed.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Communism is the correct way forward for humanity. Few would agree with me, at least not to this extremity, but I can assure you that it is. Please feel free to discuss this - it is very close to my heart.
    Marx’s doctrine is fraught with faulty logic, loopholes, and unsolved problems. His idea of economics is based on the labor theory of value, which asserts that a car, for example, should cost more than a TV, because more labor is needed to produce it. But this is an oversimplification of the market.Sam’s Choice Cola tastes almost identical to Coca-Cola, but costs half as much. The labor is the same, but people are happy to pay twice as much for the only difference: the brand name. The same holds true with medicine.

In the same way, tennis shoes can cost over $200 in the US, despite being made in China or Taiwan for only about $3–10. Why do they cost so much? Because the industries that own them sell them based on how highly they are in demand by the public. That’s why they have athletes endorse their products: to make them more desirable to the athletes’ fans.This is expressly why Marxist Communism has caused the utter collapse of so many national economies: it thinks in broad strokes, and fails to tell one subtlety from another. This, first and foremost, is because Communism is not grounded in reality.

    *not own words
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    That's why a prerequisite for successful communism is for everyone to consider the greater good a higher incentive than their own personal gain. It seems outlandish but why not at least experiment with whether children are born greedy? If they were brought up to support each other perhaps communism could work and poverty be ended.
    Even if you could prove that greed isn't inherent - which I disagree with, as evolution necessitates a desire to prosper; natural selection doesn't work if we all want the best for each other - that still doesn't solve the issue. There is no way you could stop every single person from having any desire for personal wealth. Even if you could remove most peoples' greed, there would always be some who harboured personal ambition. And in a society of people with no such ambition, these greedy people would inevitably rise to the top. You've got the same problem again. Either these greedy people gain enough power to bring an end to communism, or the government has to forcibly deal with these people.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Consider this:

    Communism itself does not erase the class struggle, as it proclaims, but keeps it going. It does this because it is a government: there must be a group of people in charge, and it’s likely that this group enjoys its power. By maintaining their power, the leaders of a Communist state separate the population into at least two classes: themselves as the upper class, and preferably everyone else in the lower class.Communist states have generally not featured a middle class—and its absence allowed for the Russian Revolutions of 1905 and 1917; the Chinese of 1949, the Cuban of 1953-59, and a host of others. All of these revolutions ended with the rise of a Communist state—and all of them were the ruin of their respective nations, because the Communists themselves became the very same brand of elitist upper class they had deposed.
    Class and power don't necessarily correlate. Just because a governing body might be endowed with more power doesn't mean that they will be more wealthy.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Marx’s doctrine is fraught with faulty logic, loopholes, and unsolved problems. His idea of economics is based on the labor theory of value, which asserts that a car, for example, should cost more than a TV, because more labor is needed to produce it. But this is an oversimplification of the market.Sam’s Choice Cola tastes almost identical to Coca-Cola, but costs half as much. The labor is the same, but people are happy to pay twice as much for the only difference: the brand name. The same holds true with medicine.

In the same way, tennis shoes can cost over $200 in the US, despite being made in China or Taiwan for only about $3–10. Why do they cost so much? Because the industries that own them sell them based on how highly they are in demand by the public. That’s why they have athletes endorse their products: to make them more desirable to the athletes’ fans.This is expressly why Marxist Communism has caused the utter collapse of so many national economies: it thinks in broad strokes, and fails to tell one subtlety from another. This, first and foremost, is because Communism is not grounded in reality.

    *not own words
    But surely you agree that branding is ridiculous, for something to be 'worth' more because it has a black tick on it, despite identical utility?
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    I have studied economic thought closely. After reading Adam Smiths "Wealth of Nations" I feel his version of capitalism which is set up to benefit society is the best way to set up an economy. However Smith acknowledged that without any laws in place to enact the rules he set out in order to protect workers pay, naturally capitalists will start acting in a selfish way that harms society. Equally I strongly agree with where Marx is coming from and many of his sentiments. But he is too idealistic and his policies are not grounded in reality.

    Therefore I came to the conclusion: a balanced economic view (centralist) which leans left is the absolute best way to go.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    I have studied economic thought closely. After reading Adam Smiths "Wealth of Nations" I feel his version of capitalism which is set up to benefit society is the best way to set up an economy. However Smith acknowledged that without any laws in place to enact the rules he set out in order to protect workers pay, naturally capitalists will start acting in a selfish way that harms society. Equally I strongly agree with where Marx is coming from and many of his sentiments. But he is too idealistic and his policies are not grounded in reality.

    Therefore I came to the conclusion: a balanced economic view (centralist) which leans left is the absolute best way to go.
    I can respect that
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    "Communism is a perfect system for an imperfect species"
    Or something like that.... I second this quote.

    But Scandinavian style capitalism seems to work very well in the real world.
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    "Communism is a perfect system for an imperfect species"
    Or something like that.... I second this quote
    It's a nice quote but why accept imperfection and not strive for what is perfect?
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    But surely you agree that branding is ridiculous, for something to be 'worth' more because it has a black tick on it, despite identical utility?
    No, I don't.

    I buy Nike trainers, as opposed to some that look the exact same that are from China.

    Why?

    Because I know that I can trust the quality of Nikes materials, I can trust each shoe will be quality checked, I can trust Nike has researched into the newest technologies for improving trainers. With the other brand I know they haven't.

    According to Marx's Labour Theory of Value both trainers - having taken an equal amount of time to make - should cost the same. But I know that I would be willing to pay more for the Nikes than for the others due to the Brand. So would others. Naturally the price of the Nikes should be higher. Wouldn't you agree?

    So thats where the Theory is too simple.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    It's a nice quote but why accept imperfection and not strive for what is perfect?
    Because we'll always be selfish/greedy as a species. It's the way we are and I don't think we can change that.
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    But Scandinavian style capitalism seems to work very well in the real world.
    Actually its rather surprising that it is working so well. Thing is that it was implemented in a mature and stable society (no wars, no coups, no natural disasters) which developed excellent, but rigorous work ethic. Doesn't have to be the case for all countries, look how Greece ended up.

    I think the optimal level of welfare varies between countries. Some can go socialist and maintain high productivity, in others this would cause corruption and lead to public debt. One thing that remains a necessity is the existence of a free market.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    No, I don't.

    I buy Nike trainers, as opposed to some that look the exact same that are from China.

    Why?

    Because I know that I can trust the quality of Nikes materials, I can trust each shoe will be quality checked, I can trust Nike has researched into the newest technologies for improving trainers. With the other brand I know they haven't.

    According to Marx's Labour Theory of Value both trainers - having taken an equal amount of time to make - should cost the same. But I know that I would be willing to pay more for the Nikes than for the others due to the Brand. So would others. Naturally the price of the Nikes should be higher. Wouldn't you agree?

    So thats where the Theory is too simple.
    Well all the research and quality control counts as labour as well - thus they require more labour. If that's your reason for buying them then you haven't disproved the labour theory of value at all.
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    Because we'll always be selfish/greedy as a species. It's the way we are and I don't think we can change that.
    Your not thinking it doesn't constitute proof I'm afraid.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Your not thinking it doesn't constitute proof I'm afraid.
    really the fact that you want proof that we're selfish as a species is just hilarious.
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    (Original post by Mathematising)
    Well all the research and quality control counts as labour as well - thus they require more labour. If that's your reason for buying them then you haven't disproved the labour theory of value at all.
    OK, my analogy, I can see, is flawed. However, I have another analogy to prove the labour theory of value does not work.

    Analogy:

    Empire Tea has been around for 100 years. Its Britain's first and best loved tea brand. People love it because they have grown up with it. It holds sentimental and nostalgic value.

    Suddenly, Bio Tea comes along. A new hot shot. Its teas take more labour because they are scientifically enhanced, using GMO tea leaves and a bunch of other baloney.

    According to (not Marx as previously said) but David Ricardo's Labour Theory of Value. Its his not Marx's. I knew this I was just being forgetful.

    The Bio Tea should be much much more expensive.

    But the British people love Empire Tea. They have nostalgia, it holds sentimental value.

    They are willing to pay more for Empire than for Bio Tea.

    This is how David Ricardo's Theory is idealistic and over simplified.

    Marx's work works on this theory.

    Don't get me wrong, id love to live in a world where Ricardo's theory was possible and implementable. But thats not how it is.

    I have other ways in which it is flawed too.
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    Communism works in theory, but fails abysmally in practice.

    It is the political ideology responsible for the worst kinds of poverty, deprivation and famine, not to mention the most deaths.

    Communism is degenerate.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    really the fact that you want proof that we're selfish as a species is just hilarious.
    I want proof that we are innately selfish.
 
 
 
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