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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    It's about the principle. It's offensive to have a third of your hard-earned income go towards government waste and vanity projects, with just a bit of it spent on useful things.
    So what are you going to cut when you decimate the government's income by cutting the tax rate massively on the rich? Give specifics. military, NHS, pensions, education, scientific research?
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    (Original post by Fred5134)
    https://listentotaxman.com/65000

    They would get 45k. Did you really do 65,000 * 0.6 = 39,000 which completely ignores how taxes work, as well as the personal allowance?
    No youre right I didnt.

    Have you ever heard of hidden taxes?
    "A hidden tax is a tax that is not visible to the taxpayer. These taxes can raise prices of goods and lower salaries for workers. Hidden taxes, although hidden, can decrease the purchasing power of individuals significantly."

    Research shows that the 4th 20% of people pay significantly more in hidden taxes than the bottom 20% do. Meaning the middle classes pay is even more slashed.

    Why dont people understand. We should be diverting our anger towards the Phillip Greens, The Googles, The Amazon's and the other fat cat corporations of this world. They are the greedy few who seek to take everything and give back nothing. Instead we get caught up in squabbling because one or the other is minutely richer and one or the other is slightly poorer.
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    People complaining about taxes... why would you even need that much money? To spend on stupid rubbish?
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    No youre right I didnt.

    Have you ever heard of hidden taxes?
    "A hidden tax is a tax that is not visible to the taxpayer. These taxes can raise prices of goods and lower salaries for workers. Hidden taxes, although hidden, can decrease the purchasing power of individuals significantly."

    Research shows that the 4th 20% of people pay significantly more in hidden taxes than the bottom 20% do. Meaning the middle classes pay is even more slashed.
    So it's not that you don't know how taxes work and it's not that you simply did 65,000 * 0.6 = 39,000; it's that the addition of hidden taxes conveniently give the exact same 39,000 number as that flawed calculation above which you claimed that you didn't use?

    Also the context of the conversation was what people "bring home", so kindly explain how these hidden taxes remove 6.1k from a person's pay check when they are earning 45,100 after tax to give 39,000.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Actually those in the £100-120k range have the highest marginal tax of any income group because that's when the tax free allowance is phased out at a rate of £1 for every £2 more you earn.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Completeley agree. Another reason why our family is finding living so difficult. My dads on £110k a year. A hard working doctor, who even works weekends and privately just to keep life normal. He is hit the hardest by taxes and has a crippling mortgage. We havent been on holiday for 7 years. We have borrowed a car from my grandad for 2 years now. Admittedly we have come out from serious debt. But that dosent take away how hard it is for a "Rich" person. £110 seems a lot but its really not. Taxes at this income are crippling and living costs are huge because as a "Rich" person you are expected to have nice things like a big house and good car.

    Rich is not £100k. Hec no
    Rich is Phillip Green, Rich is Alan Sugar, Rich is £800 - 900k a year !

    Doctors pay hasnt increased in decades !! But Inflation just keeps going up and up and up.
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    Has to be said again:

    We should be diverting our anger towards the Phillip Greens, The Googles, The Amazon's and the other fat cat corporations of this world. They are the greedy few who seek to take everything and give back nothing. Instead we get caught up in squabbling because one or the other is minutely richer and one or the other is slightly poorer.
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    Has to be said:
    We should admit when we are wrong when caught not knowing how taxes work in a tax discussion and not invent numbers in a desperate attempt to avoid admitting error.
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    (Original post by Ladbants)
    If you earn £100000 a year, your take-home pay is only £65467 after income tax and national insurance. So you literally lose more than a third of your income to the government. Surely this is really unfair to those who have worked really hard. I would much prefer it if everyone just paid 20% of their income in tax
    People do, except it's more like 37% rather than 20%, and it isn#t transparently so.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Rich is not £100k. Hec no
    I'm not really surprised that TSRians don't really understand money particularly well. Imagine trying to run a single income family on £100k in many parts of the country - it's not just tax, but pension contributions, student loan deductions and so on too.

    You certainly couldn't walk into a decent family home, you'd struggle to give even one child a private education. £100k is not "rich" in any conventional sense.
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    (Original post by Ladbants)
    If you earn £100000 a year, your take-home pay is only £65467 after income tax and national insurance. So you literally lose more than a third of your income to the government. Surely this is really unfair to those who have worked really hard. I would much prefer it if everyone just paid 20% of their income in tax
    Once again,
    1) are the people earning 100,000 working 5 times harder than the people earning 20,000?
    2) Which programs are going to scrapped so that those with more than everyone else can pay less taxes?
    3) How many jobs will be lost when the government decimates its spending so that those with more than everyone else only have to pay 20%?
    4) Is it really fair that those who have benefited so much from society to the point where they are rich can then ask for their tax bills to be cut in half so that they don't have to pay as much back to the society that made them rich?
    5) The society which made them rich would be irreparably damaged by the massive cuts in spending which would be required to cut their tax rate to 20%

    (Original post by L i b)
    £100k is not "rich" in any conventional sense.
    The average income in the UK is £26.5k
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    (Original post by Fred5134)
    Once again,
    1) are the people earning 100,000 working 5 times harder than the people earning 20,000?
    2) Which programs are going to scrapped so that those with more than everyone else can pay less taxes?
    3) How many jobs will be lost when the government decimates its spending so that those with more than everyone else only have to pay 20%?
    4) Is it really fair that those who have benefited so much from society to the point where they are rich can then ask for their tax bills to be cut in half so that they don't have to pay as much back to the society that made them rich?
    5) The society which made them rich would be irreparably damaged by the massive cuts in spending which would be required to cut their tax rate to 20%

    The average income in the UK is £26.5k
    RE: 1

    You shouldn't consider how "hard" one works but their economic value, somebody who is, hypothetically, economically valueless can work as hard as it is humanly possible to work but would never be employed in a truly free market, or even the pseudo free market we have if we're going to be honest. On the other hand somebody who is incredibly economically valuable due to their skill set, whether that be "natural" skills or taught skills, does not have to work at all hard to still be worth the large sums of money they are paid.

    The other side is suitability for the job, those on the highest incomes are likely in a very elite group when it comes to suitability for the job, largely derived from the second point above, that similarly increases their value, although it should theoretically always be less than their perceived economic value; meanwhile those with few skills are literally not even one of a million, rather than the prior proverbial one in a million, which again devalues them economically. It's the reason eastern Europeans find work so easily, they have the same low skill set as millions of Britons, but their work is economically more valuable.

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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Completeley agree. Another reason why our family is finding living so difficult. My dads on £110k a year. A hard working doctor, who even works weekends and privately just to keep life normal. He is hit the hardest by taxes and has a crippling mortgage. We havent been on holiday for 7 years. We have borrowed a car from my grandad for 2 years now. Admittedly we have come out from serious debt. But that dosent take away how hard it is for a "Rich" person. £110 seems a lot but its really not. Taxes at this income are crippling and living costs are huge because as a "Rich" person you are expected to have nice things like a big house and good car.

    Rich is not £100k. Hec no
    Rich is Phillip Green, Rich is Alan Sugar, Rich is £800 - 900k a year !

    Doctors pay hasnt increased in decades !! But Inflation just keeps going up and up and up.
    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm not really surprised that TSRians don't really understand money particularly well. Imagine trying to run a single income family on £100k in many parts of the country - it's not just tax, but pension contributions, student loan deductions and so on too.

    You certainly couldn't walk into a decent family home, you'd struggle to give even one child a private education. £100k is not "rich" in any conventional sense.
    Reading these is so odd as a person from a household with <£20k income.

    You're worrying about big houses, private education, keeping up appearances? If those are your worries, you're rich in my book tbh, because for the vast majority of people giving one child a private education isn't a "struggle" it's a downright impossibility that's never even considered

    I'd give a lot of things to come home with £65k
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    Someone wrote a related op-ed on the Guardian the other day, which I thought was quite interesting.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lth-super-rich
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    The people complaining about paying tax are probably the same ones who complain about underfunded public services. Not that they'll ever see the irony.

    I also see people keep perpetuating this myth that hard work and wages are intrinsically related.
    A Swedish bus driver is paid fifty times what an Indian bus driver is paid, does that mean he works fifty times as hard?

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    (Original post by Just a Bloke)
    I would say that it's fair that a wealthy person owes a third of his income to maintain the physical, cultural and human infrastructure upon which he built his wealth.
    Seriously piss off you ****
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    (Original post by Lucasium)
    Seriously piss off you ****
    Hey, pleasure to meet you there buddy! Are you quite alright?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm not really surprised that TSRians don't really understand money particularly well. Imagine trying to run a single income family on £100k in many parts of the country - it's not just tax, but pension contributions, student loan deductions and so on too.

    You certainly couldn't walk into a decent family home, you'd struggle to give even one child a private education. £100k is not "rich" in any conventional sense.
    and I'm not really surprised that a TRSian tries to make out that a family on 100k is badly done by. If it is that hard then how about all the other families on much much less? Are they living in slums?

    It certainly isn't "I never have to work again if I don't want to be rich", "I have a large influence on society", "I can buy government" etc but it is way up there in terms of the majority of plebs who work of and make the wealth of the uber rich.

    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    RE: 1You shouldn't consider how "hard" one works but their economic value, somebody who is, hypothetically, economically valueless can work as hard as it is humanly possible to work but would never be employed in a truly free market, or even the pseudo free market we have if we're going to be honest. On the other hand somebody who is incredibly economically valuable due to their skill set, whether that be "natural" skills or taught skills, does not have to work at all hard to still be worth the large sums of money they are paid.Posted from TSR Mobile
    Can you not see the injustice in that?

    Or do you believe in the will of God to place people in their lot in life?

    Equality of opportunity?

    Basically what kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to be happy with that set up? Since it seems to be your version of utopia. I can not see how anyone can be happy with that. The only way I can justify it is that it is the least **** option of structuring society.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Taxes at this income are crippling and living costs are huge because as a "Rich" person you are expected to have nice things like a big house and good car.
    Awwwwwwww............. Poor you. How ever do you cope?

    No one is forcing you to be a slave to debt. If you don't like ti downsize. You don't have to have a big house and big car. If you still can't do that the economy is ****ed and how do you think everyone else copes? Also don't claim that your dad only works as a doctor for the big house and car. If it is that hard he can just become a nurse or something. I'm sure they hardly work at all for their 20k salary (:rofl2:).

    Basically many people are in the same boat but have nothing like 100k salery to make it work with... So if you are going to get angry don't even bother blaming a nurse for paying next to no tax in comparison. Look upwards. Or join the lower ranks of society if they have it so good.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Why dont people understand. We should be diverting our anger towards the Phillip Greens, The Googles, The Amazon's and the other fat cat corporations of this world. They are the greedy few who seek to take everything and give back nothing. Instead we get caught up in squabbling because one or the other is minutely richer and one or the other is slightly poorer.
    You redeemed yourself here somewhat
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    I feel bad now for being mean
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Completeley agree. Another reason why our family is finding living so difficult. My dads on £110k a year. A hard working doctor, who even works weekends and privately just to keep life normal. He is hit the hardest by taxes and has a crippling mortgage. We havent been on holiday for 7 years. We have borrowed a car from my grandad for 2 years now. Admittedly we have come out from serious debt. But that dosent take away how hard it is for a "Rich" person. £110 seems a lot but its really not. Taxes at this income are crippling and living costs are huge because as a "Rich" person you are expected to have nice things like a big house and good car.

    Rich is not £100k. Hec no
    Rich is Phillip Green, Rich is Alan Sugar, Rich is £800 - 900k a year !

    Doctors pay hasnt increased in decades !! But Inflation just keeps going up and up and up.
    I think the issue is found in the phrase 'keep life normal'. As I said before when discussing this idea of 'mo money, mo problems'. Take the basic cost of living (i.e. something around 14-16k - I don't know the exact figure) and account for the different locations you can live (i.e. being in and around London adding x amount). Once you start earning above that figure, the ONLY way you can have cost of living problems, is if you spend all that extra money. You only get a crippling mortgage if you buy a house where the repayments are too high for you to comfortably handle. Taxes are only crippling if you spend the rest of the money. If every time you get more disposable income, you spend it, then you will never have enough - the solution is to stop spending it.

    The idea that you are expected to have x, y and z is laughable. You can not sit there and say "I need a 50k car, because, you know, I'm rich. Oh wait, now I don't have enough money, I need more money so I can continue to be rich and buy a 60k car". While you may say, but I earned that money, I deserve it - I agree, in principle. But if we gave you your tax cut and you had an extra 10k a year, wouldn't that just be spent on the next thing (that car you can't afford) and lo, you're back in the position of having no money again.

    You simply can not argue that being paid 110k generates problems regarding having an acceptable standard of living, you just can't. It's frankly insulting to anyone living on less.

    * I appreciate you mentioned your family coming out of significant debt, however a) you are no longer in that debt and b) we're discussing things in general.

    Doctors pay has most certainly increased. Where on earth did you get that from? When Agenda For Change came out for NHS workers, the consultants negotiated themselves a lovely separate package (~75k - ~110k) which formed part of the contract the government is desperately in the middle of changing (whether you agree with it or not). Besides, Agenda for Change increases every year - by less than inflation I think, but still better than many in the private sector.
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    (Original post by BB8)
    Reading these is so odd as a person from a household with <£20k income.

    You're worrying about big houses, private education, keeping up appearances? If those are your worries, you're rich in my book tbh, because for the vast majority of people giving one child a private education isn't a "struggle" it's a downright impossibility that's never even considered

    I'd give a lot of things to come home with £65k
    I'm not talking about mansions and Eton here, I'm talking about a decent family home and a local independent school. The sort of standard three or four bed homes, and the sort of schools that were the preserve of the upper middle class - not the rich, but the comfortably well-off.

    As I've pointed out previously, even on £100k you will not have a take-home salary of £65k. Deduct pensions contributions - and likely things like student loan debt for younger people - and you're talking about more than £10k off that figure.

    That'll earn you a house a bit above average (once you manage to save up a large deposit), potentially being able to run two family cars and a holiday abroad. We're not talking Rolls Royce money here, we're talking middle-middle class.
 
 
 
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