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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I thought racism implies the idea "I am better than you because of my race" (whatever race is, that is technically hard enough to define). I think it is a bit of a strong assumption to say "well anyone who thinks group X are incapable of a functioning democracy, must do so because of race". Personally I don't think it has anything to do with race. Look at Russia, they are white, well slavic I guess, and I wouldn't call them democratic at all.
    "the soft racism of low expectations" is hardly ever spelt out in clear , explicit terms

    quite often, it takes the form of progressive-sounding, tolerant statements

    so, soft racists will never say "well, what else could you expect from a bunch of primitive negroes"

    they will say, rather "we should respect local traditions and structures. Democracy is ill adapted to tribal societies, and our human rights cannot apply where conditions are different, due to different developments since millennia and bla bla bla, so we should not judge xyz by our standards"

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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I like the way he said it in such a matter-of-fact way, as if it's completely normal to think that
    If women didn't obey their husbands, things would get out of hand.

    How would you like it if your four wives forced you to do the dishes?
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I like the way he said it in such a matter-of-fact way, as if it's completely normal to think that
    Yup with the lol at the start.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    So a woman that doesn't wear a burqa is immodest?
    Well,if they come from a particularly strict Muslim background they would likely be shunned from their families and communities. Serves them right, the harlots.........

    (Original post by Josb)
    What the hell do you mean?
    He's doing that stupid thing that some people do: trying to compare the treatment of Muslims in Europe today with that of Jews in Nazi Germany. Not only moronic, but insulting to the Jews of the time who - unlike Muslims today - faced actual persecution.

    (Original post by h333)
    No idea what you are talking about, burqa is a way of showing modesty from women in Islam to the highest level but it is optional.

    Ok thanks.
    He's obviously talking about your implication that women who do not wear burqas are immodest. But you knew that and now you're playing dumb
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Lol so obeying your husband is seen as a bad thing? Oh dear, no wonder this country has so many failed marriages.
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    (Original post by h333)
    No idea what you are talking about, burqa is a way of showing modesty from women in Islam to the highest level but it is optional.

    Ok thanks.
    There is nothing modest about wearing a burqa in the West. You are deliberately wearing an item of clothing that is jarring and unsettling to the majority of people, and is tied to a wider ideology that a great many consider antithetical to our own culture and values.

    That is NOT being modest.
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    My notifs for quotes are not working but I was quoted by many here lol.

    Let me put it out there in ISLAM women are supposed to wear the hijab and burqa is an option. I follow this way of life so I also willingly agree to wear a hijab for many reasons you may already know. If a woman chooses to follow the way of Islam then so be it, you can't tell her she is being oppressed if she chooses to cover up because of it.

    Ok fine by what I am reading, I am apparently or the women that choose to cover up this way are oppressing themselves without them actually knowing they are oppressing themselves..or something like that... I did not know oppression would mean I am happy.

    I am expecting a lot of hate/diasagreement or whatever but guess what I will still follow Islam and am proud and wear a hijab so no problem :smile:
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    (Original post by h333)
    My notifs for quotes are not working but I was quoted by many here lol.

    Let me put it out there in ISLAM women are supposed to wear the hijab and burqa is an option.
    No, most translations of the Quran don't mention the hijab (as the current head covering), and none mentions the burqa.

    Among the generally accepted translations given by this site: http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/31/only 8 on 29 translations refer to "head-covering", the other say "veils" or "shawls", etc.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Muhammed Assad:
    And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof; hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.

    M. M. Pickthall:
    And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms

    Shakir:
    And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):
    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty

    Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty

    Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
    And say to the females, ones who believe to lower their (f) sight and keep their (f) private parts safe and show not their (f) adornment but what is manifest of it. And let them (f) draw their head coverings over their (f) bosoms

    Wahiduddin Khan
    Say to believing women that they should lower their gaze and remain chaste and not to reveal their adornmentssave what is normally apparent thereof, and they should fold their shawls over their bosoms.

    T.B.Irving
    Tell believing women to avert their glances and guard their private parts, and not to display their charms except what [normally] appears of them. They should fold their shawls over their bosoms

    [The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
    And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast their shawls over their cleavage.

    Abdel Haleem
    And tell believing women that they should lower their glances, guard their private parts, and not display their charms beyond what [it is acceptable] to reveal; they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines

    Abdul Majid Daryabadi
    And say thou unto the believing women that they shall lower their sights and guard their private parts and shall not disclose their adornment except that which appeareth thereof; and they shall draw their scarves over their bosoms

    Ahmed Ali
    Tell the believing women to lower their eyes, guard their private parts, and not display their charms except what is apparent outwardly, and cover their bosoms with their veils

    Aisha Bewley
    Say to the mumin women that they should lower their eyes and guard their private parts and not display their adornments — except for what normally shows — and draw their head-coverings across their breasts.

    Ali Ünal
    And tell the believing women that they (also) should restrain their gaze (from looking at the men whom it is lawful for them to marry, and from others’ private parts), and guard their private parts, and that they should not display their charms except that which is revealed of itself; and let them draw their veils over their bosoms

    Ali Quli Qara'i
    And tell the faithful women to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts, and not to display their charms, except for what is outward, and let them draw their scarfs over their bosoms

    Hamid S. Aziz
    And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their modesty, and display not their ornaments, except those which are obvious from the outside; and let them pull their veils over their bosoms

    Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
    And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms

    Muhammad Sarwar
    Tell the believing woman to cast down their eyes, guard their chastity, and not to show off their beauty except what is permitted by the law. Let them cover their breasts with their veils.

    Muhammad Taqi Usmani
    And tell the believing women that they must lower their gazes and guard their private parts, and must not expose their adornment, except that which appears thereof, and must wrap their bosoms with their shawls

    Shabbir Ahmed
    And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and guard their modesty. That they should not display their beauty and ornament beyond what is decently and spontaneously apparent in daily lives. Hence, let them cover their bosoms with their sash (Dupatta).

    Syed Vickar Ahamed
    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty (and looks) and protect themselves and privacy (from illicit sex): And that they should not display their beauty and jewels except what (may usually) appear; That they should draw cover over their bodies and bosoms

    Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
    And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests

    Farook Malik
    Likewise enjoin the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; not to display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; let them draw their veils over their bosoms

    Dr. Munir Munshey
    Ask the believing women to lower their gaze, guard their chastity, and not leave bare their beauty and charm, except that which becomes apparent by itself. Ask them to pull their veil-cloths down across their bosom

    Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
    And direct the believing women that they (too) must keep their eyes lowered and guard their chastity, and must not show off their adornments and beautification except that (part of it) which becomes visible itself. And they must keep their veils (and head-coverings) drawn over their chests (too)

    Dr. Kamal Omar
    And advise the Believing females that they restrain their eyes and guard their private sexual parts; and (that) they do not make evident their beauty except what became apparent thereof, and that they extend their head-coverings (also) over their bosoms (and hide the prominence).

    Talal A. Itani (new translation)
    And tell the believing women to restrain their looks, and to guard their privates, and not display their beauty except what is apparent thereof, and to draw their coverings over their breasts

    Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
    And say to the believing women, that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty, that they should not display their ornaments, except what seems appropriate to her, that they should draw their garments over their bosoms

    Maududi
    O Prophet, enjoin the Believing women to restrain their gaze and guard their private parts. and not to display their adornment except that which is displayed of itself, and to draw their veils over their bosoms

    [The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
    And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage.
    Anyway, even with the 8 translations that implicitly or explicitly mention head-coverings, the main point is to cover women's breasts, not the head.



    (Original post by h333)
    I follow this way of life so I also willingly agree to wear a hijab for many reasons you may already know. If a woman chooses to follow the way of Islam then so be it, you can't tell her she is being oppressed if she chooses to cover up because of it.

    Ok fine by what I am reading, I am apparently or the women that choose to cover up this way are oppressing themselves without them actually knowing they are oppressing themselves..or something like that... I did not know oppression would mean I am happy.

    I am expecting a lot of hate/diasagreement or whatever but guess what I will still follow Islam and am proud and wear a hijab so no problem :smile:
    You haven't answered the question about whether you think that women who don't cover are immodest.
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    (Original post by Josb)

    Among the generally accepted translations given by this site: http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/31/only 8 on 29 translations refer to "head-covering", the other say "veils" or "shawls", etc.
    Anyway, even with the 8 translations that implicitly or explicitly mention head-coverings, the main point is to cover women's breasts, not the head.
    true
    e.g. if women should "wear their head-coverings over their bosoms" this seems to imply uncovering their head

    actually, this whole "cover everything except face, hands and feet" comes from the ahadith, not the Quran

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    in any case, the main function of this entire covering business was most likely about status, not morality. It was designed so as to make free Muslim women easily recognisable, "so that they are not annoyed" (33:59)

    in contrast, the awrah (part of the body which should be covered) of a slave woman is limited to the same area that a male must cover (navel to knee) plus stomach and back, but not including the breasts

    check e.g. http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7730

    So, all this talking about "modesty" "morality" etc seems vastly overplayed : why should a slave woman's modesty be considered as less important than a free woman"s ?
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    (Original post by h333)
    My notifs for quotes are not working but I was quoted by many here lol.

    Let me put it out there in ISLAM women are supposed to wear the hijab and burqa is an option. I follow this way of life so I also willingly agree to wear a hijab for many reasons you may already know. If a woman chooses to follow the way of Islam then so be it, you can't tell her she is being oppressed if she chooses to cover up because of it.

    Ok fine by what I am reading, I am apparently or the women that choose to cover up this way are oppressing themselves without them actually knowing they are oppressing themselves..or something like that... I did not know oppression would mean I am happy.

    I am expecting a lot of hate/diasagreement or whatever but guess what I will still follow Islam and am proud and wear a hijab so no problem :smile:
    Just sad.

    Exactly why Islam does not belong in the West. People just came here for the better life, but have no meaning to integrate.
 
 
 
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