Criticism of Islam is not a hate crime, nor racist, nor enophobic

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    (Original post by jake4198)
    What did you "foresee"?

    Where have I "changed the subject"?

    How have I "proposed hypothetical whataboutery"?

    I'm simply asking you to provide evidence for the things you write, because unfortunately, 'ALevelStress' is not a credible source and I can't have a cogent and rational conversation about issues which you bring up if you don't provide evidence for me to go off.

    You are the one who is making unacceptable accusations and misquoting what has been said by the likes of Donald Trump and UKIP. Yes, Donald Trump did imply that "some" illegal Mexicans who crossed the border were rapists, druglords and criminals. However, he did not imply that "all" illegal Mexicans were. The former is true - and provable. The latter is not true - hence why he didn't say it. There is also no evidence - either from top UKIP officials or in the UKIP manifesto - that UKIP want to mass deport "foreigners".
    I provided evidence, and you deny it, even when it is staring you in the face, as I predicted.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I provided evidence, and you deny it, even when it is staring you in the face, as I predicted.
    :yawn:
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    There's your evidence; your own words.

    White supremacist groups have flocked to Trump because they think that he will look out for their interests and an unacceptable number of Trump supporters think that Abraham Lincoln make the wrong decision to free slaves, that the South should have won the civil war and do not disagree that White people are the superior race. Is it time to start being "tough" on them to force them to assimilate?
    Muslims do hold capricious and hateful beliefs - and it's proved by research and fact.

    In the United Kingdom, over 50% of all Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal, with nearly 40% believing that a woman should always obey their husband and nearly 25% believing the UK should introduce Sharia law as part of its judiciary system.

    Research conducted by TruthRevolt shows that an estimated six hundred million Muslims hold views and beliefs which would be considered extreme and radical in the western world, this includes the prosecution of gays and the stoning of women for adultery.

    Muslim majority countries - with the exception of a few states in sub-Saharan Africa - are the only countries not to sign up to the UN's nondiscrimination against the LGB+ community, with Albania and Bosnia being the only exceptions.

    According to Pew Research, 14% of Nigerians; 11% of Malaysians; and 9% of Pakistanis all say they support Islamic State, with only 28% from Pakistan saying that they have unfavourable views towards them. In the Middle-East, South Asia, South East Asia and Africa - with the exception of Tunisia, Chad, Tanzania and Giunnea Bissau - over 50% of all Muslims in the aforesaid countries believe in the introduction of Sharia Law.

    So, unless you have evidence, not gross generalisations and heinous assumptions, stop saying that Trump supporters are white supremacists or that Trump supporters believe "Abraham Lincoln was wrong to free the slaves". An "unacceptable number" you say, well where's your evidence? How do you know it's an unacceptable number when I assume your only research into the matter is a few pathetic comments over a YouTube video.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I provided evidence, and you deny it, even when it is staring you in the face, as I predicted.
    How old are you? You provided me with no evidence whatsoever. I'd ask for evidence of your evidence, but I know I won't get any.
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    Criticism of Islam is fine, criticism of Muslims (the people) is a completely different thing. As long as you don't cross the line then you should be fine. However in reality there may be segments of people who are highly offended anyway and won't respond productively, which is a sad truth today.


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    (Original post by jake4198)
    How old are you? You provided me with no evidence whatsoever. I'd ask for evidence of your evidence, but I know I won't get any.
    He's a cocky kid who thinks he's a big man.
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    That said however, the politicisation of Islam is becoming a major issue in Europe and is already a fatal issue in the Middle East. Islamism as I like to call it is fueling extreme beliefs. The idea that Islam should govern a country or society is dangerous and widespread. We all have to double-down on our commitment to secularism.


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    (Original post by jake4198)
    Muslims do hold capricious and hateful beliefs - and it's proved by research and fact.

    In the United Kingdom, over 50% of all Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal, with nearly 40% believing that a woman should always obey their husband and nearly 25% believing the UK should introduce Sharia law as part of its judiciary system.

    Research conducted by TruthRevolt shows that an estimated six hundred million Muslims hold views and beliefs which would be considered extreme and radical in the western world, this includes the prosecution of gays and the stoning of women for adultery.

    Muslim majority countries - with the exception of a few states in sub-Saharan Africa - are the only countries not to sign up to the UN's nondiscrimination against the LGB+ community, with Albania and Bosnia being the only exceptions.

    According to Pew Research, 14% of Nigerians; 11% of Malaysians; and 9% of Pakistanis all say they support Islamic State, with only 28% from Pakistan saying that they have unfavourable views towards them. In the Middle-East, South Asia, South East Asia and Africa - with the exception of Tunisia, Chad, Tanzania and Giunnea Bissau - over 50% of all Muslims in the aforesaid countries believe in the introduction of Sharia Law.

    So, unless you have evidence, not gross generalisations and heinous assumptions, stop saying that Trump supporters are white supremacists or that Trump supporters believe "Abraham Lincoln was wrong to free the slaves". An "unacceptable number" you say, well where's your evidence? How do you know it's an unacceptable number when I assume your only research into the matter is a few pathetic comments over a YouTube video.
    It's not a "gross generalisation", it is a fact. Just as how misogyny and homophobia is an issue among Muslim communities which needs to be tackled, racism, bigotry and homophobia is an issue among Trump supporters which needs to be tackled. More than 30% did not disagree that White people are the superior race, 38% think that the South should have won the civil war, nearly 20% disagreed with Lincoln's decision to free slaves, 17% wanted to ban LGBT people from entering the US and 74% wanted to ban Muslims.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/up...ance.html?_r=1

    But that is not enough, nor are Trumps bigoted lies that he saw thousands of Arabs celebrating on rooftops in New Jersey on 9/11, nor is the fact that members of the KKK, Stormfront, Pioneer Little Europe and several other White Supremacist groups have voiced their support for him. You all will still remain in denial that it is a campaign that festers hatred.

    You lot can be seen as a group that holds hateful beliefs the same way Muslims can be. So in that sense it is not prejudiced and contrary to civil liberties if a government started to be "tough" on Trump supporters.

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    (Original post by jake4198)
    How old are you? You provided me with no evidence whatsoever. I'd ask for evidence of your evidence, but I know I won't get any.
    I did provide evidence, maybe you disagree with me thinking it isn't 'evidence', but unlike on the topic of Islamophobia and bigotry, 'evidence' has a pretty concrete definition.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    *You lot can be seen as a group that holds hateful beliefs the same way Muslims can be. So in that sense it is not prejudiced and contrary to civil liberties if a government started to be "tough" on Trump supporters.
    well, it all depends on what being "tough" * exactly means

    the opinion that Islam is (in general terms) incompatible with representative democracy is by no means an extravagant or unsupported conclusion : people who hold this opinion are not necessarily advocating the end of US civil liberties

    the US has lived through all of this in the forties and fifties, with Communists ... there is clearly some sort of reasonable middle path to be followed, equally far from McCarthyism and "benign neglect"*
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    well, it all depends on what being "tough" * exactly means

    the opinion that Islam is (in general terms) incompatible with representative democracy is by no means an extravagant or unsupported conclusion : people who hold this opinion are not necessarily advocating the end of US civil liberties

    the US has lived through all of this in the forties and fifties, with Communists ... there is clearly some sort of reasonable middle path to be followed, equally far from McCarthyism and "benign neglect"*
    Well of course, but if it's a case of tackling domestic abuse, polygamous marriages, homophobia and the like then I disagree that this would count as being "tough" on Muslims, as none of these things should be treated as acceptable in any community. Nothing that infringes on the rights of others should be.

    But when people talk about being "tough" on Muslims, I have a feeling that this entails more than that.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    That said however, the politicisation of Islam is becoming a major issue in Europe and is already a fatal issue in the Middle East.
    I would talk of re-politisation of Islam, rather than simply politisation of it. Islam was born as a State with religion attached in Medina and Mecca, and has considered itself as a potentially universalist State until very recent years. The troubling development is that the trend towards secularisation of Islam, evident in the second half of the 20th century, has dramatically reversed
    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    dIslamism as I like to call it is fueling extreme beliefs. The idea that Islam should govern a country or society is dangerous and widespread. We all have to double-down on our commitment to secularism. *
    very true : however, now Islam is tied to an increased search for identity, coupled with historical frustrations and age-old recriminations

    Islam is surfing on a wave of both identity politics and national frustrations, rather than on purely religious considerations : and this development is not something which will disappear soon *
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    In my view, conservatives and UKIP supporters hold 'capricious and hateful beliefs on many social issues'.

    But should we ignore that because they're not foreign?
    So now you are saying that it is ok to criticise individuals because of their beliefs.
    That's a bit of a U-turn! (But not entirely suprising)
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    Hillary Clinton did say that "50% of all Trump supports belong in a basket of deplorables", not "some", she said "50%".
    That's probably a conservative estimate.
    Although I'm not entirely sure what a "basket of deplorables" is.
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    "They don't like to be generalised but love generalising others."

    Have you got any evidence of this, or are you generalising?
    That's the trouble with TSR users, they always generalise.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    It's not a "gross generalisation", it is a fact. Just as how misogyny and homophobia is an issue among Muslim communities which needs to be tackled, racism, bigotry and homophobia is an issue among Trump supporters which needs to be tackled. More than 30% did not disagree that White people are the superior race, 38% think that the South should have won the civil war, nearly 20% disagreed with Lincoln's decision to free slaves, 17% wanted to ban LGBT people from entering the US and 74% wanted to ban Muslims.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/up...ance.html?_r=1

    But that is not enough, nor are Trumps bigoted lies that he saw thousands of Arabs celebrating on rooftops in New Jersey on 9/11, nor is the fact that members of the KKK, Stormfront, Pioneer Little Europe and several other White Supremacist groups have voiced their support for him. You all will still remain in denial that it is a campaign that festers hatred.

    You lot an be seen as a group that holds hateful beliefs the same way Muslims can be. So in that sense it is not prejudiced and contrary to civil liberties if a government started to be "tough" on Trump supporters.
    It is a fact? Well, let's interrogate the data.

    The first promulgation you made was that Trump supporters are white supremacists. According to the data provided by P.P.P, 16% of Donald Trump supporters believe that whites are the superior race. In other words, 84% - or an overwhelming majority of Donald Trump supporters - do not believe that whites are the superior race. I don't know where you got "more than 30%" from.

    The second promulgation you made was that "an unacceptable number" of Trump supporters believe that Lincoln was wrong to free the slaves. According to the New York Times, 20% of Trump supporters believe Lincoln was wrong. However, this is not verifiable. Even though the Times are claiming 20% of Trump supporters disagree with Lincoln's emancipation proclamation, the YouGov data neither confirms nor denies these claims. In fact, the only data YouGov provides on the matter is that 13% of all Americans either strongly or somewhat disapproved of it. Breakdown by demographics, age and political affiliation were not provided - and given the New York Times' liberal bias - the claim is therefore unverifiable.

    The third promulgation you made was that "38% [of Trump] supporters believe that the South should have won the Civil War". However, this question is very broad and doesn't define the context, hence why the number of people replying as "don't know" is higher than those who agreed and disagreed for all the Republican Primary Candidates. According to research conducted in Alabama, over 60% of correspondents said that the American Civil War was more about states' rights as oppose to giving rights to the slaves. This trend isn't just of relevance in Alabama, however; according to Pew, over 48% of all Americans believe the Civil War was more about states' rights than it was about slavery, so therefore saying you believe the South should have won the Civil War is not the same as saying you support slavery, the enslavement of blacks or the oppression of blacks.

    The fourth promulgation you made was that "17% of Trump supporters believe in banning the LGB+ community from entering the US". I don't know how this compares to places like Saudi Arabia which sentences gays to death, or the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries which imprisons its own people for having same sex relations, but if it fits your narrative then fine. Nevertheless, once again, the overwhelming majority of Republicans do not believe in disallowing LGB+ persons from entering the United States.

    The final promulgation you made was that "74% of all Trump supporters believe in banning Muslims". This is not true. According to the data 80% of Trump supporters believe in banning Muslims from entering the United States, but this is not the same as saying they want to ban all Muslims - or Islam. The notion to ban Muslims' entry into the United States was proposed by Donald Trump in order to ensure the protection of US citizens - as vetting procedures Trump argues are not sufficient.

    Much of the data you provided does not compare with the abhorrent abuses and heinous views which are pertinent in the Islamic Community. While I'm not going to say that there isn't racism among Trump supporters, the racist elements of his movement represent a small minority of his overall campaign. If you look at black Trump supporters over YouTube, and don't submit yourself to calculated bias, the reception they receive from so-called white supremacists is unanimously positive. Indeed, Milo's interview with Diamond and Silk was an indictment to how inclusive the Republican movement has become.

    So yes, maybe there are KKK members, hysterical southern rednecks and genuine racists who associate with Donald Trump. However, they do not define the movement and the incessant need to paint Trump supporters as closet racists is unfounded. The data might show some uncomfortable truths, but on the whole, they account for a minority. Islam is more of a problem because the data I provided actually had some fruit behind it. Whereas "17% of Trump supporters" might believe in banning LGB+ persons from entering the US, that does not correlate to over 50% of British Muslims believing against homosexuality - and the imprisonment, prosecution and execution of gays in many Muslim countries around the world.

    You have used data, that of which you provided, to paint a misconstrued and false picture of Trump supporters as a collective. However, the data you provided disproves your prejudice. Again, although there were some uncomfortable readings from the report, they represent - on the whole - the minority. The reason Islam is of particular interest is because the aforesaid vehement views existent in the Islamic community are not commonplace among a select few, but rather an overwhelming majority.
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    stop saying that Trump supporters are white supremacists or that Trump supporters believe "Abraham Lincoln was wrong to free the slaves". An "unacceptable number" you say, well where's your evidence? How do you know it's an unacceptable number when I assume your only research into the matter is a few pathetic comments over a YouTube video.
    While I agree with your points about not ignoring the unacceptable beliefs of many Muslims (or rather Islamists*), if even one Trump supporter believes that Lincoln was wrong to free slaves, that is an "unacceptable number".

    (* Muslims who are fully aware of the contents of the Quran and sunnah, and still insist that it is perfect, immutable and universal.)
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    (Original post by QE2)
    While I agree with your points about not ignoring the unacceptable beliefs of many Muslims (or rather Islamists*), if even one Trump supporter believes that Lincoln was wrong to free slaves, that is an "unacceptable number".

    (* Muslims who are fully aware of the contents of the Quran and sunnah, and still insist that it is perfect, immutable and universal.)
    Maybe from an idealistic perspective having one Trump supporter believing Lincoln was wrong to free the slaves is an unacceptable number, but from stance of realism, you are always going to get morons who degrade and embarrass any movement by submitting to political views which are utterly unacceptable. Nevertheless, unless the aforesaid represent a notable proportion of the overall movement, their relevance and notability should be dismissed and ignored.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Criticism of Islam is fine, criticism of Muslims (the people) is a completely different thing. As long as you don't cross the line then you should be fine. However in reality there may be segments of people who are highly offended anyway and won't respond productively, which is a sad truth today.


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    Criticism of a large and diverse group may well be unacceptable, but criticism of individuals on the basis of expressed beliefs is reasonable and justified. Any Muslim who claims that they have read all the Quran and are aware of the content of the sunnah and classical tafsir, and then insists that it is all perfect, unchangeable and universal, is open to criticism on the basis of their expressed views.

    No one would claim that you could criticise National Socialism but not those Nazis who supported every idea in Mein Kampf and viewed Hitler as the perfect role model because it would be displaying bigotry. A quite ridiculous concept!
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    (Original post by WBZ144)

    **** me! I can't believe how high the figures are for Clinton supporters!
 
 
 
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