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Homosexuality - how to explain it to children watch

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    (Original post by benm)
    Thanks, it's an interesting link.

    Wouldn't such conclusions suggest that homosexuals were essentially feminine, considering that the interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus are smaller in females.
    No, not really. Homosexual males still have a y chromosome and produce lots of testosterone. Eaven if this one feature may be more similar to females it doesnt mean that a homosexual is feminine as a large number of other features could very well be much more masculine than among the average male.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    the gene is believed to influence the path formed by synapses during thought processes, so it is quite feasible a gene can be the majority factor. although a choice would have to be made in whether to accept or deny it.
    No, that is wrong. Eaven if environmental factors did affect the outcome it doesnt imply that the person makes a choice. That something is not genetic does not mean that it is chosen. I never chosed to be born in Sweden, yet it is certainly not any gene that causes peopel to get born in sweden. Get my drift? A choice implies that the person has deliberately made a decision. An environmental factor may influece your mental state without you being able to chose it. A person could become gay from environmental factors without ever having the possibility to chose another path which would make him/ her heterosexual.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    ********! Sex among humans have far more purposes than reproduction. This should be quite obvious given that human females, in contradiction to females among most other species, have sex eaven when they are not ogulating. Humans belong to a small group of animals (also including dolphins, whales and chimps ) who have sex for reasons other than reproduction.
    I assume you mean ovulating:

    Again, I affirm that I was not merely arguing that because the sex does not lead to procreation it is unnatural, but that it is unnatural because the 'sexuality' and the desire for sex with people of the same sex actively prevents procreation from taking place.

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    What are these other reasons then? Well, firstly it strengthens several body functions ( among them the imunity system), and secondly it helps keeping the species together as a group.
    Please eplain how sex keeps the species together as a group and how it strengthens the immunity system.

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Furthermore, homosexuality is more than simply wanting to have sex with a member of the same gender. A homosexual will actually fall in love with people of the same sex ( No, love and physical atraction is not the same thing).
    People 'fall in love' with people they are physically attracted to. I don't want to talk about love though as this involves too many other cognitive functions, I am talking about homosexuality being the causation of not wanting sex that could lead to procreation

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Another great problem with the idea that homosexuality is unatural is that it is so frequent. Roughly 1 out of 30 people is homosexual. Had homosexuality been a problem (from an evolutionary point of view) one would expect this ratio to be much smaller. If homosexuality was a great disadvantage ( from an evolutionary point of view) then why does it remain this frequent eaven after several tens of thousands of years of human evolution? The only possible explanation will have to be that there is no great advantage for teh human species to have a smaller ratio of homosexuals. Homosexuality is a consequence of the way humans develop and it is therefore natural.
    I thought homosexuality was genetically pre-determined at birth, are you arguing that homosexuality occurs during development?

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    If homosexuality was not natural, it would have to be artificially caused by some distinct features of our society. However, if homosexuality were caused by society, the particular society would surely affect the rate of homosexuality.
    I guess it is more fitting to my argument that homosexuality is a 'mental disease' instead of 'unnatural', as my inferrences that it is 'unnatural' is not an attempt to imply homosexuality is determined by society.

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    So far there is no evidence sugesting that rates of homosexuality should be different in other societies and cultures. In fact, homosexuality appears to occur with about the same rate, regardless of culture. This further weakens the idea that homosexuality is not caused by natural factors.
    Interesting, do you have any links?
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    I love how people like to cite studies that are not widely accepted and considered controvercial at best. Considering what is known about the genetic coding, which is very little despite what some would like for you to believe. Moving foreward, true the choice isn't completely conscious, but niether is which tie i put on in the morning. Yet i did go out and purposefully put myself in an environment where ties could be bought. I exposed myself to the key stimuli which was to look at ties in the first place, and i ended up becoming a member of the tie wearing public. The idea is that certain real choices limit and predict possible choices in the future. An uncomfortable teen chooses to relate with other uncomfortable teens, they find something in common, this choice limits new people they are to meet, they develope close bonds with their friends... and eventually there is a feeling that
    "i was gay all along" might not be true for all, but in the last four years i have been conducting interviews and working on my thesis on just this issue. and for men at least, this is the most prevelant pattern by far. People seek out similars, they like to be around others who make them feel normal. Furthermore if the threory of the doting mother and distant father stand up it makes perfect sense that these men would be seeking Male approval and affection. but hey, personal experience counts for nothing when you can rely on a few guys sitting all alone in a lab all day trying to make sense of why the guy next to them looks better and better every day....
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    (Original post by mcspence)
    I love how people like to cite studies that are not widely accepted and considered controvercial at best. Considering what is known about the genetic coding, which is very little despite what some would like for you to believe. Moving foreward, true the choice isn't completely conscious, but niether is which tie i put on in the morning. Yet i did go out and purposefully put myself in an environment where ties could be bought. I exposed myself to the key stimuli which was to look at ties in the first place, and i ended up becoming a member of the tie wearing public. The idea is that certain real choices limit and predict possible choices in the future. An uncomfortable teen chooses to relate with other uncomfortable teens, they find something in common, this choice limits new people they are to meet, they develope close bonds with their friends... and eventually there is a feeling that
    "i was gay all along" might not be true for all, but in the last four years i have been conducting interviews and working on my thesis on just this issue. and for men at least, this is the most prevelant pattern by far. People seek out similars, they like to be around others who make them feel normal. Furthermore if the threory of the doting mother and distant father stand up it makes perfect sense that these men would be seeking Male approval and affection. but hey, personal experience counts for nothing when you can rely on a few guys sitting all alone in a lab all day trying to make sense of why the guy next to them looks better and better every day....
    This could make sense if it were not for the extremely high suicide rate amongst young gay men, the existence of gay animals etc... If it were simply a matter of choice (sub-conscious or conscious), then we wouldn’t be debating the subject.
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    (Original post by benm)
    I thought homosexuality was genetically pre-determined at birth, are you arguing that homosexuality occurs during development?
    Yes you think a lot of things. Could you please explain why, if homosexuality was determined genetically at birth, a gay person could very well have a non-gay identical twin? Basicly all you have done so far is to say that homosexuality means a person does not want to have heterosexual sex, and therefore you say its unatural. Your entire argument rests on the idea that it is unatural not to want to do something that may decrease your chance of reproducing. Well, heres a question for you. A bee dies directly after stinging an animal because its back gets torn to pieces. This surely prevents that bee from reproducing. Is that also unnatural behaviour? Is it unnatural for bees to sting ?
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Yes you think a lot of things. Could you please explain why, if homosexuality was determined genetically at birth, a gay person could very well have a non-gay identical twin? Basicly all you have done so far is to say that homosexuality means a person does not want to have heterosexual sex, and therefore you say its unatural. Your entire argument rests on the idea that it is unatural not to want to do something that may decrease your chance of reproducing. Well, heres a question for you. A bee dies directly after stinging an animal because its back gets torn to pieces. This surely prevents that bee from reproducing. Is that also unnatural behaviour? Is it unnatural for bees to sting ?
    I like your style.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    This could make sense if it were not for the extremely high suicide rate amongst young gay men, the existence of gay animals etc... If it were simply a matter of choice (sub-conscious or conscious), then we wouldn’t be debating the subject.
    I disagree, people like to debate.... furthermore, in the animal kingdom homosexuallity is not exclusive, bi sexuality is a better term if we are going to go there. In addition it tends to be used as a form of dominance and aggression? that and i tend to think we are little more advanced then dogs chimps and maybe even dolphins.
    as for suicide rate, that makes perfect sense if you are talking about people not comfortable with themselves to begin with. I really fail to see how that goes against my logic??? If the gay gene is also the i want to kill myself gene then well..... there is a problem. please explain that one further cause i really want to know where you are going with it.

    and for the record i have already conceded that the choice is not purely cognitive and that genes to influence, i am just searching for an answer that is not so easy.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Could you please explain why, if homosexuality was determined genetically at birth, a gay person could very well have a non-gay identical twin?
    because the 'genetics' would only increase the risk, not be a direct causation.

    and BTW, i agree entirely with the "bee sting" natural argument.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Yes you think a lot of things. Could you please explain why, if homosexuality was determined genetically at birth, a gay person could very well have a non-gay identical twin? Basicly all you have done so far is to say that homosexuality means a person does not want to have heterosexual sex, and therefore you say its unatural. Your entire argument rests on the idea that it is unatural not to want to do something that may decrease your chance of reproducing. Well, heres a question for you. A bee dies directly after stinging an animal because its back gets torn to pieces. This surely prevents that bee from reproducing. Is that also unnatural behaviour? Is it unnatural for bees to sting ?
    i like the logic.... good imagery... but only the queen can reproduce anyway, and all others are working along the premis that she must be defended....
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    because the 'genetics' would only increase the risk, not be a direct causation.

    and BTW, i agree entirely with the "bee sting" natural argument.
    thank you, i have been trying to put that into words all along...
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    (Original post by mcspence)
    and for the record i have already conceded that the choice is not purely cognitive and that genes do influence, i am just searching for an answer that is not so easy.

    I agree
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    (Original post by mcspence)
    i like the logic.... good imagery... but only the queen can reproduce anyway, and all others are working along the premis that she must be defended....
    Still it shows quite brutally that acting in a way that prevents you from reproducing doesnt mean you are acting unnaturaly. The entire argument that homosexuality is unnatural because it disfavours reproduction is based on a very flawed interpretation of darwins theory of evolution. People need to understand that long run survival of the species is not merely a question of reproducing as quick as possible.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    because the 'genetics' would only increase the risk, not be a direct causation.

    and BTW, i agree entirely with the "bee sting" natural argument.
    I was writing in response to bemn who claimed that homosexuality was pre-determined genetically at birth. I do recognise that genetics can affect your sexuality, I was merely pointing out that it is undoubtly also a question about nevironmental factors.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    I was writing in response to bemn who claimed that homosexuality was pre-determined genetically at birth. I do recognise that genetics can affect your sexuality, I was merely pointing out that it is undoubtly also a question about nevironmental factors.
    ..it's all swings and roundabouts, as the other 9 (??) threads would probably confirm
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    no it doesn't..... the drone is completely unable to reproduce.... not a factor in its genetic make up..... so it is completely irrelevant. Better examples would be a prarrie dog taking off to attract the attention of a hawk, often dying so that the young and others could retreat to safetly... oh wait that is the exact opposite of the point because it leads to preservation of offspring...

    all i am saying is don't use a creature who can't have sex or reproduce to begin with as a model for peoples actions....

    a much better examply is masturbation..... that sure as hell serves no viable reproductive purpose....
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    (Original post by mcspence)
    a much better examply is masturbation..... that sure as hell serves no viable reproductive purpose....
    Wrong again... Masturbation causes old sperm to be ejaculated so that new can take its place. It keeps the fruit fresh to put it that way...
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    (Original post by mcspence)
    no it doesn't..... the drone is completely unable to reproduce.... not a factor in its genetic make up..... so it is completely irrelevant. Better examples would be a prarrie dog taking off to attract the attention of a hawk, often dying so that the young and others could retreat to safetly... oh wait that is the exact opposite of the point because it leads to preservation of offspring...

    all i am saying is don't use a creature who can't have sex or reproduce to begin with as a model for peoples actions....

    a much better examply is masturbation..... that sure as hell serves no viable reproductive purpose....

    Well regardless if the only reason for homosexuality to be considered as unnatural was that it doesnt favour long term genetic prevalence, then you get a problem explaining why evolution hasnt gotn rid of it. 1 out of 30 peopel are gay. Had it been an evolutionary disadvantage it would be remarkably surprising that this ratio was so large.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Wrong again... Masturbation causes old sperm to be ejaculated so that new can take its place. It keeps the fruit fresh to put it that way...
    there is a more 'natural' method of keeping the 'fruit fresh', which involves changing the sheets.
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    homosexuality aside.... I tend to think the non-reproductive arguement tends to deal more with a fear of commitment and desire not to pass on your issues tot he next generation.
    yet you have to see that this is an issue non the less. if we are going to look to genetics.... i would tend to say that the "gay gene" would serve more as a genetic kill switch. possibly there are self checking functions in developement, we know in some cases a mother will miscariage, upon examination there are defects in developement. Possibly somewhere along the way the developing fetus realizes a defect and puts a command into action made to prevent passing on this gene?
    how do you like that..... i think that bridges the gap on why a natural gene would interfere with the need to pass itself on.... not the most politically correct view though.... just an idea.
 
 
 
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