intellectual snobbery? Watch

This discussion is closed.
Comp_Genius
Badges: 4
Rep:
?
#141
Report 10 years ago
#141
(Original post by jismith1989)
:p: What people think is rarely indicative of the truth. Though you may, indeed, be; I'm in no position to judge.

What I do want to say, however, is that the two institutions of Oxford and Cambridge are given much more esteem by the public at large than they perhaps deserve, and this, I believe, may create a dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy, thereby diminishing the efforts of those at other universities, less illustrious. When I applied for Oxford (I didn't get an interview, as my attained grades weren't up to it, but I was insubordinate nonetheless) my family were so excited at the prospect that I could be going to... Oxford. However, they showed little enthusiasm when I was finally given offers at other universities (some with perhaps 'better' reputations than my chosen university of Manchester). Such a prejudice, I believe without having done a representative survey, is held by a large swathe of the population. This selfsame swathe will to some extent include employers, and thus oftentimes, or sometimes, prejudice (rather than true, objective judgement, which I advocate) may afflict hard-working students at other universities.

Of course, I recognise that the teaching quality at Oxbridge is of a quality rarely surpassed, with the such resources as the tutorial system at hand, as well as the wide range of high-quality extra-curricular activities on offer. However, the work of a university student is, to a large extent, independent in its nature. And as such one's university can only dictate one's academic standing to a very vicarious and peripheral degree.

I accept that there are most probably a great many more students who revel in academia at Oxbridge than at supposedly lesser institutions. But what we should remember is that roughly 90% of Oxbridge students come from a middle-class background, 50% from private schools: this is highly representative of society at large. I do not want to get into a debate regarding the hypothesised (not by myself, though) superior potential of the middle class. What I shall say, though, is that these statistics tacitly show that Oxbridge is not attainable for everyone who is of the intelligence perhaps to achieve well there, for a great many reasons. And thus a position that Oxbridge -- and by association all students thereat -- is absolutely at the top of the academic hierarchy is not a very tenable one. I recommend that we should accept the very real achievements of those at these two universities; we should not, however, judge these achievements by a scale different from that of others students. There are a great many ambitious students out there, as there are a great many with little or no ambition, and we should not create an educational apartheid, based on aristocratic undertones.

(Wow, that was quite an essay! )
the point is, we should all be judged by the same standard: standards at oxbridge are considerable higher than other universities - most getting 2:2's would be getting 1st's and top 2:1s without much difficulties. (but people might argue against that)

This would also stop people being prejudiced against other universities. Obviously there are inferior minds at Oxbridge - but if we all sit national exams - then it's fair for everybody, whether at oxbridge or not.
0
faber niger
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#142
Report 10 years ago
#142
(Original post by Comp_Genius)
the point is, we should all be judged by the same standard: standards at oxbridge are considerable higher than other universities - most getting 2:2's would be getting 1st's and top 2:1s without much difficulties. (but people might argue against that)

This would also stop people being prejudiced against other universities. Obviously there are inferior minds at Oxbridge - but if we all sit national exams - then it's fair for everybody, whether at oxbridge or not.
Without coming from a good position to argue, I wouldn't think that was the case: maybe a 2.1 but not a 1st -- a first supposedly requires high levels of knowledge and original thought at most universities, I wouldn't think that this would be analogous to an Oxbridge 2.2. Anyway, as you say, that's an argument not worth getting into.

I'd happily accept your proposals though. Maybe we could have different 'tiers' so that those who feel they would like to take an easier exam could (so as not to discriminate against people who just aren't quite up to the very highest standards), and those who feel that they are up to the highest can be judged on a standard equivalent to all those taking the same exam, no matter their university. Good idea.
0
asdfghjkl123456789
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#143
Report 10 years ago
#143
right, i'm not going to read through all the replies, but here's what i think.
butterfly girl should get over herself. her grammar and spelling are nothing to boast about, and she really doesn't come across as particularly intelligent.
here's what really happens when she sees her poor friends:
butterfly girl's friends are having really in-depth discussions about literature, which go well beyond Emma and critical theory. Butterfly girl plonks herself down at the table with "Emma" and says:
"hmmmm.....hmmmmmmm......sssssss ss......hhhhmmmmmmmm.....ahhhhhh hhhhhhhh......well...........hmm mmmmmmmm"
her friends, in the middle of a super-complex literary discussion sigh and ask her:
"what is it now butterfly girl?"
butterfly girl continues:
"hmmmmmmmm.......critical....... ...hmmmmmmmmmm.......yes.....ahh hhhhhh.......not........critical ........ummmmmmmm.......uncritic al, you might say.......hmmmmmmmm.....the name Jack.......a...clever choice.....you might say......4 letters..........all in the first half of the alphabet.....hmmmmmmm" she then stares off into the distance for effect.
her friends, very bored because they now have no intellectual stimulation apart from butterfly girl sighing, get glazed eyes. they decide any conversation is better than butterfly girl sighing. being the nice, loyal friends that they are, they decide to pitch their conversation at a level which butterfly girl can understand. they resort to gossip in this week's hello magazine, which they buy regularly, to keep butterfly girl happy:
her friends:
"did you read about Brad Pitt this week, butterfly girl.
butterfly girl sighs and rolls her eyes:
"no"
her friends smile pityingly at her and say:
"yeah, well...i'll tell you....suposedly he's not happy with 5 million dollars for the new film, he wants 6 million"
butterfly girl (thinking to herself "these guys is so boring...they HATES my academemic discussion "):
"that's a lot of money"
her friends:
"yes........."
there is an awkward silence.
her friends look to each other for support. they want to keep butterfly girl entertained. they hand her a chupa chup. her favourite flavour. she sighs, looks despairingly at her friends and says:
"thanks"
they all wait for butterfly girl to finish her lolly. her friends are silently debating how to escape from her, so they can get back to talking about the novel they have all read.
too late. butterfly girl screams and starts crying:
"you...you guys....is....borrring.....don't you want to talk about my book"
her friends look pityingly at her copy of Emma. they read it when they were eight- there was very little to it. they respond with:
"yeah.....good story.....i liked it"
butterfly girl looks at them with frustration and squeaks:
"C.O.M.E..... O.N........there's more to Emma than that......Don't you see the tricks.....the name Jack?....huh?......the name Emma?.....Huh?.....don't you see the sybolllitarionismarysignoficaneo frtly?"
her friends pick up:
"what did you say? that sounded interesting"
butterfly girl smiles and says:
"sybolllitarionismarysignoficane ofrtly, it's really very simple"
her friends get out their encartas from their bags. it's not there. they go to the school library to check online. it's not there.
they ask her:
"where did you hear that word butterfly girl?"
she says:
"ehhhhhh.....ahhhhhhh......d on't know..........was it............CRAP"
she has realised that it was a word which she heard in her dream about critical theory.
her friends sigh. it's not the first time. they attempt to recover the conversation:
"butterfly girl, what's even better than Emma?....HELLO......"
they look like they're close to tears:
"YES....HELLO....BRAD....AND.... ..ANGELINA........JENIFFER...... ...PHWOAR..."
butterfly girl bursts into tears, and looks at her friends in despair:
"fair enough....you're not interested in my most academic discussion...don't blame you.....mortals...."
the rest is history
0
faber niger
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#144
Report 10 years ago
#144
(Original post by asdfghjkl123456789)
right, i'm not going to read through all the replies, but here's what i think.
butterfly girl should get over herself. her grammar and spelling are nothing to boast about, and she really doesn't come across as particularly intelligent.
here's what really happens when she sees her poor friends:
butterfly girl's friends are having really in-depth discussions about literature, which go well beyond Emma and critical theory. Butterfly girl plonks herself down at the table with "Emma" and says:
"hmmmm.....hmmmmmmm......sssssss ss......hhhhmmmmmmmm.....ahhhhhh hhhhhhhh......well...........hmm mmmmmmmm"
her friends, in the middle of a super-complex literary discussion sigh and ask her:
"what is it now butterfly girl?"
butterfly girl continues:
"hmmmmmmmm.......critical....... ...hmmmmmmmmmm.......yes.....ahh hhhhhh.......not........critical ........ummmmmmmm.......uncritic al, you might say.......hmmmmmmmm.....the name Jack.......a...clever choice.....you might say......4 letters..........all in the first half of the alphabet.....hmmmmmmm" she then stares off into the distance for effect.
her friends, very bored because they now have no intellectual stimulation apart from butterfly girl sighing, get glazed eyes. they decide any conversation is better than butterfly girl sighing. being the nice, loyal friends that they are, they decide to pitch their conversation at a level which butterfly girl can understand. they resort to gossip in this week's hello magazine, which they buy regularly, to keep butterfly girl happy:
her friends:
"did you read about Brad Pitt this week, butterfly girl.
butterfly girl sighs and rolls her eyes:
"no"
her friends smile pityingly at her and say:
"yeah, well...i'll tell you....suposedly he's not happy with 5 million dollars for the new film, he wants 6 million"
butterfly girl (thinking to herself "these guys is so boring...they HATES my academemic discussion "):
"that's a lot of money"
her friends:
"yes........."
there is an awkward silence.
her friends look to each other for support. they want to keep butterfly girl entertained. they hand her a chupa chup. her favourite flavour. she sighs, looks despairingly at her friends and says:
"thanks"
they all wait for butterfly girl to finish her lolly. her friends are silently debating how to escape from her, so they can get back to talking about the novel they have all read.
too late. butterfly girl screams and starts crying:
"you...you guys....is....borrring.....don't you want to talk about my book"
her friends look pityingly at her copy of Emma. they read it when they were eight- there was very little to it. they respond with:
"yeah.....good story.....i liked it"
butterfly girl looks at them with frustration and squeaks:
"C.O.M.E..... O.N........there's more to Emma than that......Don't you see the tricks.....the name Jack?....huh?......the name Emma?.....Huh?.....don't you see the sybolllitarionismarysignoficaneo frtly?"
her friends pick up:
"what did you say? that sounded interesting"
butterfly girl smiles and says:
"sybolllitarionismarysignoficane ofrtly, it's really very simple"
her friends get out their encartas from their bags. it's not there. they go to the school library to check online. it's not there.
they ask her:
"where did you hear that word butterfly girl?"
she says:
"ehhhhhh.....ahhhhhhh......d on't know..........was it............CRAP"
she has realised that it was a word which she heard in her dream about critical theory.
her friends sigh. it's not the first time. they attempt to recover the conversation:
"butterfly girl, what's even better than Emma?....HELLO......"
they look like they're close to tears:
"YES....HELLO....BRAD....AND.... ..ANGELINA........JENIFFER...... ...PHWOAR..."
butterfly girl bursts into tears, and looks at her friends in despair:
"fair enough....you're not interested in my most academic discussion...don't blame you.....mortals...."
the rest is history
Was I not even a footnote in the history of this thread? :p:
0
Zoedotdot
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#145
Report 10 years ago
#145
(Original post by asdfghjkl123456789)
right, i'm not going to read through all the replies, but here's what i think.
butterfly girl should get over herself. her grammar and spelling are nothing to boast about, and she really doesn't come across as particularly intelligent.
here's what really happens when she sees her poor friends:
Most of what you've said is unfounded and unfair. Even just from what I've read here she comes across as worried that how she is will affect her friendships and doesn't want this to happen, so to base this personal attack on her social interactions is just cruel. She's always seemed like a nice person to me and I would say she is intelligent - it's not all about grammar and spelling. If you're worried about that, try using some capitals once in a while :rolleyes:
0
|>|Imagine|<|
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#146
Report 10 years ago
#146
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
Does anyone find they are accused of this/worry they are guilty of this/find this widespread in the 'oxbridge' culture?

I notice with a lot of my friends that even though we share a genuine interest in reading books & literature, when I talk about what I would call 'academic' like using words like intertextuality or narrative structure to talk about a book I like they zone out. and people think im a geek for liking reading books about critical theory

thats fine with me, but what I find difficult is how its a no-go area to say 'youre not interested in academic thinking or looking at or reading literature in an academic way.' even though a lot of people I talk to are dismissive of books or poetry all together because they assume theyre not clever enough or they accuse it of not having an exciting plot/not being written in a way they can understand. my experience of a lot of people my age (18) and young people is they dont try to understand this phenomenon called 'academia' but then form a rather hostile attitude to 'academics' and talk about 'clever' and 'not clever' people in terms of 'us' and 'them'

I have to say, having grown up in oxford I do find something rather self satisfied in academics and self-congratulatoriness (if thats a word) w regards to peoples own intelligence or academic achievement. I worry that I am becoming prone to this sort of snobbery as Ive developped my intellectual abilities- I want to be interested in academia and using critical awareness when reading for its own sake, not to feel selg-important

what do people think?
To be honest, you reek of academic snobbery from here, and I don't even know you.

Who, other than an academic snob; puts their examination results in their signature?. And, from what you have written, you sound pretty self righteous.

I know someone like that, he communicates from his ********, because hes always up there. Additionally, half the stuff that comes out his mouth is pure ****e anyway.
0
princess_sue
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#147
Report 10 years ago
#147
butterfly girl - GET OVER YOURSELF. you sound like a complete *****, coming on here and basically blasting your friends for not wanting to talk about a ****ing BOOK! get a life
0
Sanjetti
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#148
Report 10 years ago
#148
(Original post by Aconite)
This.

Personally, I think you do sound a bit self-congratulatory. Yes, you're probably very intelligent and whatnot, but you seem a bit keen to rub it in people's faces. The more you learn, the more you ought to realise you DON'T know.
Yeh definitely. I used to be really arrogant about my "intelligence", before I realised how much I dont actaully know. It's humbling in many ways
0
adriantrevisan
Badges: 0
#149
Report 10 years ago
#149
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
its not an issue about how I speak or what I do
its an issue of whether there is a tendency for all but particularly oxbridge academics and specifically me- are in fact guilty of being arrogant/ self congratulatory/ self- satisfied/ pretencious/ insincere- the extent to which that is the case, or the extent to which 'other' people- ie those who are often vey interested in culture, literature, art, political debate ect are hostile or dismissive of what they perceive to be arrogance/snobbery ect

---> its clear ur pretty much "happy" to be at oxford/cambridge...remember that the more you try to show off with people...the more they are gonna be mean to you ..Its ok if you are clever and all, but is it useful showing how intellectual you are to "uninterested" people that most probably just want to have a fun chat and all?
..you got to start making differences when taking part in a discussion ...as in "whats the full reason of the discussion itself?"... I love academia myself..but I would never put academia and a real friend on the same scale.


Ad
0
Greatleysteg
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#150
Report 10 years ago
#150
(Original post by |>|Imagine|<|)
To be honest, you reek of academic snobbery from here, and I don't even know you.

Who, other than an academic snob; puts their examination results in their signature?. And, from what you have written, you sound pretty self righteous.

I know someone like that, he communicates from his ********, because hes always up there. Additionally, half the stuff that comes out his mouth is pure ****e anyway.
My ears are burning. :rolleyes: Loads of people put their exam results in their signature, or in spoilers in their signature; do we really need to waste loads more time and energy detailing the reason for it again, just to justify an action to the people whom it offends? No.
0
Master Polhem
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#151
Report 10 years ago
#151
(Original post by princess_sue)
butterfly girl - GET OVER YOURSELF. you sound like a complete *****, coming on here and basically blasting your friends for not wanting to talk about a ****ing BOOK! get a life
Yes because we all know how literature is a completely worthless past time...

Stop being so rude, I takes a lot for me to actually care about appearance on TSR as I epitomize (do you understand this word? Yes I am patronising you) rudeness in its very darkest form.
0
Bornstubborn
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#152
Report 10 years ago
#152
English literature is a joke subject, the people are not learning any real skills and there is no science behind the subject. Just pretentious educated middle class people talking about what they like about poems.
0
|>|Imagine|<|
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#153
Report 10 years ago
#153
(Original post by Greatleysteg)
My ears are burning. :rolleyes: Loads of people put their exam results in their signature, or in spoilers in their signature; do we really need to waste loads more time and energy detailing the reason for it again, just to justify an action to the people whom it offends? No.
It doesn't offend me, and even if it did; that wouldn't mean someone shouldn't do it. I just see no use other than what I outlined before.
0
butterfly_girl_5
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#154
Report Thread starter 10 years ago
#154
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
OP, I think I get what you're trying to say and it's good that you're trying to ensure that you don't come across as snobbish (frustrating as it may be)
...
thankyouß I think youre right
0
butterfly_girl_5
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#155
Report Thread starter 10 years ago
#155
(Original post by ixivxivi)
Oh for gods sake, having an oxbridge offer does not a clever, interested (and this is how I define people I want to talk to - the fact that they're interested in stuff -...

EDIT: Although, I guess your remark was about your specific friends, not perhaps people in general, so massive outburst on my part was uncalled for. Ach well.
well the point I was trying to make by saying that was that Im talking about specifically friends I have that are cultured and interesting even thought they dont have offers from cambridge. I said older people, bc I think its less surprising that 18yr olds arent interested in discussing books/culture or dont like to express themselves in a more intellectual sounding way.

just to explain what I meant
0
faber niger
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#156
Report 10 years ago
#156
(Original post by Bornstubborn)
English literature is a joke subject, the people are not learning any real skills and there is no science behind the subject. Just pretentious educated middle class people talking about what they like about poems.
0
|>|Imagine|<|
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#157
Report 10 years ago
#157
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
well the point I was trying to make by saying that was that Im talking about specifically friends I have that are cultured and interesting even thought they dont have offers from cambridge. I said older people, bc I think its less surprising that 18yr olds arent interested in discussing books/culture or dont like to express themselves in a more intellectual sounding way.

just to explain what I meant
You should realise, That "intelligence" (Have you defined that yet? The only definition you seem to have gave it thus far is "me me me") has no direct correlation with success in Academics.

Worse, You seem to hold "intelligence" and "success" in academia as mutually inclusive.

I've met some seemingly extremely intelligent Taxi drivers in the past, believe it or not. Perhaps even, more clued up than you. Academia Indeed.
0
aspiringlawyer
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#158
Report 10 years ago
#158
Conclusion:
OP is an intellectual snob who, I suspect, while being 'academic' is probably not that intelligent at all.
Next time, don't rely on TSR for people to massage your already oversized ego.

I feel sorry for your so-called 'friends',not only for having to put up with your constant condesencion, but also for being friends with someone who (not so) secretly thinks they are brain dead cretins.
0
butterfly_girl_5
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#159
Report Thread starter 10 years ago
#159
(Original post by aspiringlawyer)
To be honest OP, you have come across as extremely preoccupied with the idea of your intelligence - its almost as if you think your massive intellect is actually becoming a barrier preventing you from being truly understood by the uneducated masses. Unless you're Steven Hawking, I seriously doubt that.

I mean why did you even bother posting this thread in the 'Oxbridge' forum?Your thread had relatively little to do with Oxbridge


The point I'm making is not about the 'rules' of posting in TSR, but rather what your choice of place to air your feelings on this matter says about you. Several other forums would have been far more appropriate (how about Health and Relationships, seeing as your huge IQ is preventing you from forming proper relationships), but you chose the Oxbridge forum.

Why?

I suspect because you feel the need to have your ego massaged and convene with others whilst you bemoan the burden of such massive intelligence. Get over yourself.
well to be fair to you I really didnt explain my case at all well- but in my defence I think the last paragraph does kind of explain why this is in the oxbridge forum. I have grown up in oxford and what I am talking about is a divide between people who are 'academic' and those who are seen or see themselves as 'normal'. I am genuinely concerned that having got a place at cambridge through hard work and come to have a basic understanding of literature and academic thought, I am through arrogance or snobbery isolating my friends by making them feel stupid or just being up myself without realising it. What I wanted peoples opinions on is how far in their experience there is something self-satisfied, arrogant or snobbish about the oxbridge culture, which is more pertinent to me because I live in Oxford and all my friends live here.

So I think this is about oxbridge- and only people who have experience of oxbridge academics will have the relevant experience to answer my question- and that would be people who use the oxbridge forum. The health and relationships forum is more about things like sex,friendship and social life so this doesnt fit any better there, and this isnt about IQ- its about where what I always thought of as an interest is being marred by my arrogance or generally by the tendency towards arrogance in the oxbridge culture

If something I said indicated I think I have a massive intellect then please quote it specifically because I didnt think thats what I suggested- I certainly didnt mean to.

I am preoccupied with my own intelligence because I have realised recently that because I have managed to persevere so quickly in english (really thanks to my teachers), that Im getting ahead of myself or Im starting to become self-congratulatory and become an academic snob (even when I dont really have reason to). I am preoccupied with the difficulty of pursuing a genuine interest in literature which Im lucky to be able to understand in an academic way, and falling into the trap of putting myself above people and just having the pretence of being clever when in fact I dont really understand anything.

I dont really see what opportunity I have to 'have my ego massaged' because Im drawing attention to the fault I have of not being able to recognise how to be considerate and fit in with my friends and the fact Im being arrogant without knowing it- and the point that maybe Im not all that clever anyway- as people have duly pointed out

I might be wrong here- but why would I ask people if Im in danger of being arrogant and snobbish if not to try and 'get over myself'?
0
butterfly_girl_5
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#160
Report Thread starter 10 years ago
#160
(Original post by Captain Biggles)
And you will find people who are hostile towards academics, but only because academics, or those who have a degree under their belt, tend to be the most successful.

I'm gonna sound like a right snob.
no I think you make a good point
I certainly was- or am in danger of setting myself apart from people- and I completely agree with you that as people- cleverness doesnt really come into social skills or peoples emotional capacity
0
X
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

University open days

  • Cranfield University
    Cranfield Forensic MSc Programme Open Day Postgraduate
    Thu, 25 Apr '19
  • University of the Arts London
    Open day: MA Footwear and MA Fashion Artefact Postgraduate
    Thu, 25 Apr '19
  • Cardiff Metropolitan University
    Undergraduate Open Day - Llandaff Campus Undergraduate
    Sat, 27 Apr '19

Have you registered to vote?

Yes! (291)
37.79%
No - but I will (53)
6.88%
No - I don't want to (56)
7.27%
No - I can't vote (<18, not in UK, etc) (370)
48.05%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed