Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#1641
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#1641
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
YES.
But I haven't.


You've put forward information from various unreliable sources and I've just pointed you in the direction of more reliable sources that question the validity of you're argument.

Your not really banned, banned youtube footage that has miracously been banned but not been banned, but is told by various internet sources that need to be portray Scots as Victims to gain support say it's been banned.

It's not a new trick with Nationalist movements. Goebells used it to great effect in the Sudetnland in the 30's. But even that wasn't new. It was mastered by a guy called Edward Bernays. You're trying to portray the electorate as victims here by spreading untruths. You are either lieing or slightly unbalanced with paranoid tendencies. Remember it was the SNP who wants a positive case, yet it keeps getting its supporters to spread untruths on the internet.
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MatureStudent36
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#1642
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#1642
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
YES.
You can't answer a question starting with 'How have I......' with Yes. It just doesn't make sense.
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Maths Tutor
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#1643
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#1643
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You can't answer a question starting with 'How have I......' with Yes. It just doesn't make sense.
For once you are right. But YES, you have been caught out lying.
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MatureStudent36
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#1644
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#1644
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I know you suffer from acute myopia, but did you not see the message on youtube itself:

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Better Together"

Next you will tell me youtube is an SNP propaganda tool.

With that I am going to stop discussing with a LIAR.
I saw the You tube clip with somebody posting a comment underneath it saying they've tried to ban it. But it's still there. Nationalism needs to have victim hood attached to it to thrive. I'm no victim, neither are the majority of the electorate.

I watched a Youtube clip the other day about Aliens in the Falklands and there were plenty of comments on that comments section that said it was real........I chose to not believe the commments though.
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MatureStudent36
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#1645
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#1645
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
For once you are right. But YES, you have been caught out lying.
Again. How have I been caught out lying.
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cowsforsale
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#1646
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#1646
(Original post by Laozi)
Because the youth are easily susceptible to propaganda and misinformation which is exactly what the SNP are relying on.
Yet, the very same "youth" are leaving school and deciding on matters such as what and where to continue their studies, or what field of work they might want to head into instead. Similarly, are all middle aged/elderly folk well reasoned and straight thinkers?

You make it sound like as if all other news sources are impartial.


All I see is;

'The English are horrible tyrants, William Wallace was right. If we leave then we'll be so much richer, happier and better off and so much more Scottish. Life will be heaven.'

Please specifically quote pro-indy people saying those words?

It's been the ruk people on this thread who have appeared much more confrontational imo.

Anyway, please read this and that and tell me Westminster really do have Scotland's best interest at heart? Not to mention, HS2 and West Ham United, London Olympics.. etc and planned welfare cuts and the bedroom tax.

Regardless, seems like you've chosen a side of the argument, and will seek all the hits and neglect all the misses just to suit your bias (and I doubt you have actually read the thread).
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stemitchell91
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#1647
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#1647
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
As the UK government is refusing to get a definitive answer, we will have to wait till Day 1 of Independence to find out who was lying.
As has already been covered, it is not up to the UK government to find out such things; that would be the responsibility of the future Scottish government (hopefully it won't come to that though). The only thing anyone really knows about us joining the EU, is that no one knows anything about it. I don't see how blindly charging into independence when there is so much we don't know could ever be a good idea.

And I made a few more points than that in the post you quoted.
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MatureStudent36
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#1648
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#1648
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Yet, the very same "youth" are leaving school and deciding on matters such as what and where to continue their studies, or what field of work they might want to head into instead. Similarly, are all middle aged/elderly folk well reasoned and straight thinkers?

You make it sound like as if all other news sources are impartial.





Please specifically quote pro-indy people saying those words?

It's been the ruk people on this thread who have appeared much more confrontational imo.

Anyway, please read this and that and tell me Westminster really do have Scotland's best interest at heart? Not to mention, HS2 and West Ham United, London Olympics.. etc and planned welfare cuts and the bedroom tax.

Regardless, seems like you've chosen a side of the argument, and will seek all the hits and neglect all the misses just to suit your bias (and I doubt you have actually read the thread).
And the McCrone Report comes out for starters. The suppressed, Secret cabinet briefing papers made up from readily available information at the time...........But it sounds better if there was something more sinister behind. Remember the Mantra. I MUST, I MUST, I MUST PORTRAY MYSELF AS A VICTIM.

Infact, let hear from Mr McCrone himself on that one.





Yes, the London Olympics were held in London. Grimsby 2012 doesn't have the same ring to it.

But you'll have to explain the HS2 bit to me and West Ham.
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Maths Tutor
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#1649
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#1649
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I saw the You tube clip with somebody posting a comment underneath it saying they've tried to ban it. But it's still there.
You just don't get it.

It is still there because 'Bitter Together' TRIED SEVERAL TIMES to get it banned but were THWARTED by new links being posted on youtube itself and on numerous other sites.

Your myopia means you regard everything said on a pro-independence site as lies and everything said on an anti-independence site as the truth.
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Laozi
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#1650
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#1650
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Yet, the very same "youth" are leaving school and deciding on matters such as what and where to continue their studies, or what field of work they might want to head into instead. Similarly, are all middle aged/elderly folk well reasoned and straight thinkers?
Why have you quoted youth? As if it's some fake term we're using. It's very known among humanity that young people are more susceptible to passion and adventure and nationalism - these things are what the SNP are pushing forward. The SNP are only in power because the amount of students who vote for them because of free university.

Answer me these questions;

How are you going to pay off half of the national debt?
How are you going to survive when the oil revenue you generate won't cover public health?
How are you going to afford a standing army or defence force?
Do you know that English taxpayers pay £1600 for every Scot in Scotland?
Why do you want indepedence from Westminister when you're just going to be ruled from Brussels in the EU?

And you can go to hell and back if you think you're keeping the pound sterling after leaving the Union. Good luck with the Euro because you'll probably be the next Greece.

You're acting as if you're some abused country who's been raped by England of all her resources. :rolleyes:

Go and watch Braveheart again (you do know none of it's historically accurate right, just in case..)
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MatureStudent36
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#1651
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#1651
(Original post by Laozi)
Why have you quoted youth? As if it's some fake term we're using. It's very known among humanity that young people are more susceptible to passion and adventure and nationalism - these things are what the SNP are pushing forward.

Answer me these questions;

How are you going to pay off half of the national debt?

It'll only be 8.6% of the national debt

How are you going to survive when the oil revenue you generate won't cover public health?
The SNP haven't explained this to us yet, so I'm thinking that the pro seperation supporters won't be able to explain that either. Interestingly enough though there was a leaked SNP document the other week highlighting a U turn post seperation on spending.
http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf

There's obviously been the issue of a second oil boom for the North Sea that has recently been de bunked.

There's also issues with Defence, pensions etc
.

How are you going to afford a standing army or defence force?

I think the SNP policy is to let somebody else foot the bill as although we aspire to be in NATO and like Norway, we won't be willing to act like Norway. infact, defence policy appears to have been drawn up on the back of a fag packet.

Do you know that English taxpayers pay £1600 for every Scot in Scotland?

That's not English Money. That's British Money.

Why do you want indepedence from Westminister when you're just going to be ruled from Brussels in the EU?

I think that's where the SNP leadership want to go for the lucrative salary and pension.


And you can go to hell and back if you think you're keeping the pound sterling after leaving the Union. Good luck with the Euro because you'll probably be the next Greece.

We can use the Pound if we want to. But it depends on who backs it. Many countrys use the US$, but the Fed won't back them. It's an informal curreny union. But you're right. Somebody needs to ask the RUK electorate on that one.

You're acting as if you're some abused country who's been raped by England of all her resources. :rolleyes:


Nationalism does need to be portrayed as a victim to gain strength, But you're right. You're average SNP supporter hasn't quite twigged on that what's happening in Scotland is happening throughout the UK. There's a high degree of Navel Gazing. But please do remember that they're in a minority.

Go and watch Braveheart again (you do know none of it's historically accurate right, just in case..)

Interestingly enough I remember when the film came out and SNP activists were handing out leaflets in Cinema's. It would appear from polling figures that it was just after Braveheart that they gained most of their support.........but that tailed off.

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MatureStudent36
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#1652
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#1652
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
You just don't get it.

It is still there because 'Bitter Together' TRIED SEVERAL TIMES to get it banned but were THWARTED by new links being posted on youtube itself and on numerous other sites.

Your myopia means you regard everything said on a pro-independence site as lies and everything said on an anti-independence site as the truth.
No it wasn't. It appeared for the first time with the comment that they tried to ban it..........but they didn't. I can't really explain it any more straight forward than that.
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stemitchell91
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#1653
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#1653
(Original post by cowsforsale)

Anyway, please read this and that and tell me Westminster really do have Scotland's best interest at heart? Not to mention, HS2 and West Ham United, London Olympics.. etc and planned welfare cuts and the bedroom tax.
Westminster has to act in the best interests of the entire country, not just Scotland. The McCrone report was (as mentioned by MatureStudent) entirely made up of freely available information; if nationalists at the time had wanted to know the potential impact of the oil industry they could easily have worked it out themselves. In addition, that first link you provided describes a situation in which revealing the contents of the McCrone report could have gone a great way towards tearing the country apart, of course the government didn't go waving it around in public. Not to mention that the whole, "It's our oil, only ours and should only benefit us." thing is really very selfish, we can't expect to receive all of the advantages of political union while still keeping all of our resources to ourselves.


(Original post by Laozi)



How are you going to pay off half of the national debt?
Do you know that English taxpayers pay £1600 for every Scot in Scotland?

And you can go to hell and back if you think you're keeping the pound sterling after leaving the Union. Good luck with the Euro because you'll probably be the next Greece.
There is no way that Scotland would be given as much as half of the UK's debt. While we would certainly have to take up some share of it if we became independent, 50% is entirely unreasonable.

Please don't try to claim that English tax payers somehow subsidise Scotland, of all the regions of the UK Scotland contributes at least as much as it receives.

As for, "going to hell and back", Scotland would actually be quite entitled to maintain the Pound Sterling upon independence. Doing so would however be an incredibly bad idea.
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Midlander
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#1654
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#1654
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I am still waiting for YOU to substantiate your NUMEROUS posts attacking the SNP for not spending funds it had not even received.

I answer questions on the point being discussed. YOU change the subject every time you are caught out LYING.

Do you still stand by your claim: "Anglophobia is widespread in Scotland?
I maintain that the extra funding I referred to was given in 2010/11, not the amount just recently planned to be given. You haven't given a convincing answer to the SNP's historical stance on reduced voting ages, and ignore any talk of Salmond's dishonesty.

As for Anglophobia-of course I do; just watch the Irn Bru advert I posted up last week.
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MatureStudent36
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#1655
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#1655
(Original post by stemitchell91)
Westminster has to act in the best interests of the entire country, not just Scotland. The McCrone report was (as mentioned by MatureStudent) entirely made up of freely available information; if nationalists at the time had wanted to know the potential impact of the oil industry they could easily have worked it out themselves. In addition, that first link you provided describes a situation in which revealing the contents of the McCrone report could have gone a great way towards tearing the country apart, of course the government didn't go waving it around in public. Not to mention that the whole, "It's our oil, only ours and should only benefit us." thing is really very selfish, we can't expect to receive all of the advantages of political union while still keeping all of our resources to ourselves.




There is no way that Scotland would be given as much as half of the UK's debt. While we would certainly have to take up some share of it if we became independent, 50% is entirely unreasonable.

Please don't try to claim that English tax payers somehow subsidise Scotland, of all the regions of the UK Scotland contributes at least as much as it receives.

As for, "going to hell and back", Scotland would actually be quite entitled to maintain the Pound Sterling upon independence. Doing so would however be an incredibly bad idea.
Well said.

I'm often thinking how much of this narrow mindedness is actually the result of a strained economy. I often think back to a film showing Russian prisoners fighting over a few potatoes thrown to them. Amazing how friends and comrades react when they're feeling selfish.

Oil is a good thing. As is Lancashire Shale Gas, the Aerospace and car Industries, the financial sector, pharmaceuticals, tourism, gin and whiskey, Irish Linen et al. You know. All of the things that we all share in a diversified, equally distributed manner to minimise risk.

You're right about spending in Scotland. I do find it odd however that the SNP have singled out London and teh South East as teh bad guys in this when they're actually paying their way. Why aren't they pointing accusatory fingers at North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

I'm confused as to you're Pound Sterling idea though. Any chance of explaining?
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MatureStudent36
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#1656
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#1656
(Original post by Midlander)
I maintain that the extra funding I referred to was given in 2010/11, not the amount just recently planned to be given. You haven't given a convincing answer to the SNP's historical stance on reduced voting ages, and ignore any talk of Salmond's dishonesty.

As for Anglophobia-of course I do; just watch the Irn Bru advert I posted up last week.
Midlander. The Irn Bru advert was funny and was tongue in Cheek.

Although this may help you.

http://www.cjscotland.co.uk/2012/12/...910-published/

Again though. It's not a Scottish problem. There's retards everywhere.
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Midlander
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#1657
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#1657
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Midlander. The Irn Bru advert was funny and was tongue in Cheek.

Although this may help you.

http://www.cjscotland.co.uk/2012/12/...910-published/

Again though. It's not a Scottish problem. There's retards everywhere.
The stereotype that all English people bang on about '66 to anyone who'll listen is played upon all the time in Scottish advertising. It's not the first time Irn Bru have used it either.
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Midlander
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#1658
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#1658
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Well said.

I'm often thinking how much of this narrow mindedness is actually the result of a strained economy. I often think back to a film showing Russian prisoners fighting over a few potatoes thrown to them. Amazing how friends and comrades react when they're feeling selfish.

Oil is a good thing. As is Lancashire Shale Gas, the Aerospace and car Industries, the financial sector, pharmaceuticals, tourism, gin and whiskey, Irish Linen et al. You know. All of the things that we all share in a diversified, equally distributed manner to minimise risk.

You're right about spending in Scotland. I do find it odd however that the SNP have singled out London and teh South East as teh bad guys in this when they're actually paying their way. Why aren't they pointing accusatory fingers at North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

I'm confused as to you're Pound Sterling idea though. Any chance of explaining?
Because the Midlands and northern England had their industries destroyed by Thatcher who put everything into financial services in London. Just as she destroyed industry such as shipbuilding on the Clyde.
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MatureStudent36
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#1659
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#1659
(Original post by Midlander)
Because the Midlands and northern England had their industries destroyed by Thatcher who put everything into financial services in London. Just as she destroyed industry such as shipbuilding on the Clyde.
Those industries were dead. UK industry couldn't adapt to change. Thatcher didn't kill anything off, she just stopped subsidisying them
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Midlander
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#1660
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#1660
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Those industries were dead. UK industry couldn't adapt to change. Thatcher didn't kill anything off, she just stopped subsidisying them
Try explaining that to the countless unemployed it left-Coventry had 3 coal mines as well as being the base of the British motor industry; it has barely recovered. Still, manufacturing has entered a bit of a resurgence under the Tories with car manufacturers generating a surplus for the first time in decades.
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