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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Qatar-owned. The same country that's funding ISIS.

    Great source. :rolleyes:





    Qatar send money to Hamas too.
    Fair enough. How about the UN? Will that suffice?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...civilians.html
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    No no, its not about them being Arabs. Al Jazeera has been banned by several Arab countries, an example being Egypt.

    Qatar invests heavily in Islamic extremism throughout the Middle East. For example while Saudi Arabia provides aid to the more secular rebels in Syria, its Qatar funding and arming radical ones. In the case with Israel, they have given hundreds of millions of dollars to Hamas.
    I didn't know that. My bad. The UN claimed this, al jazeera reported it. As did the telegraph and most news outlets
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...civilians.html
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    (Original post by Dhibla)
    Fair enough. How about the UN? Will that suffice?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...civilians.html
    The UN gets its figures from Hamas.

    The Hamas Health Ministry controls everything in Gaza.

    They lied to the UN after Cast Lead about casualty figures which undermined a UN report on the conflict.

    Basically the civilian casualties are shown to the UN and the Hamas casualties are hidden.

    Thereby distorting the picture.
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    I dont doubt the obvious that civilian casualties would and are occurring. What do you expect when Israel is trying to target 30,000 Hamas fighters within a population of 1.7 million? with the number of airstrikes + Hamas intentionally using civilians as human shields, one would expect any other army to have a 99.999999% civilian casualty rate.

    By the way what dyou think of rockets being stored in UNRWA schools in Gaza?
    Look, I'm not here to justify the actions of Hamas. 80% civilian casualty rate is wrong. They should use some other approach to get rid of their security threat so there is a 0% civilian rate. Not bombing everything they see, and 'but we warned you' isn't good enough.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The UN gets its figures from Hamas.

    The Hamas Health Ministry controls everything in Gaza.

    They lied to the UN after Cast Lead about casualty figures which undermined a UN report on the conflict.

    Basically the civilian casualties are shown to the UN and the Hamas casualties are hidden.

    Thereby distorting the picture.
    And you get your source telling you this from? Look I dont care. The UN is reliable, full stop. I see pictures and videos. I read tweets of people there. I hear news reports. And unless you're there first hand to count the people dead, don't argue otherwise.
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    (Original post by Dhibla)
    There were chants shouting shame on the government. Free palestine, was shouting to allow them out of the open air prison the Israeli government were keeping them in and the government taking no notice. The chants that Israel is a terror state was for the government to recognise the fact that Israel's actions are equal to that of terrorists. And please don't condescendingly pity my opinions because you are the one arguing for a country which is killing children, the disabled and elderly which have nothing to do with their problem with hamas. And I'm the one not sane? Do not make this personal, god knows I've been avoiding doing that in my responses to you.
    I'm sorry about it getting personal but your statements are bonkers.

    The chants of "Free Palestine" were not intended to get Britain to condemn Israel. The chants claiming Israel is a terror state were not intended to get Britain to condemn Israel. That is a post-hoc justification and a bad one at that. Why wasn't the protest outside Whitehall if it was aimed at the British government? Why have veiled implied references to the British government. Why no chants of "Condemn Israel" or similar?

    No. The only sane conclusion is that the protests were not about getting Britain to condemn Israel. If you cannot see that then we have nothing more to discuss.
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    As I have stated many times before, it is wrong of Israel to attack Gaza. They should not do it.

    As a Christian, I believe Israel should obey Yeshua's (Jesus') commands to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37). I also believe Palestinians should obey Isa's (Jesus') command love their enemies too. However, not even 'Christian' nations obey Jesus' commands to love their enemies.

    If Israel and Palestine and the USA and all nations would obey Jesus' commands to love their enemies, the world would be a much better and peaceful place.


    The reason imo why no one seems to be obeying this childish rose sweet command of Jesus Christ is that it is impractical in most cases if not all - for if you love your enemy who seeks to destroy you - you will die - or is Jesus a good role model to the death?

    Leave your religion and your preaching out of this because I think its an insult to the innocents being killed in either side. You want no justice in this world of ours..
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I'm sorry about it getting personal but your statements are bonkers.

    The chants of "Free Palestine" were not intended to get Britain to condemn Israel. The chants claiming Israel is a terror state were not intended to get Britain to condemn Israel. That is a post-hoc justification and a bad one at that. Why wasn't the protest outside Whitehall if it was aimed at the British government? Why have veiled implied references to the British government. Why no chants of "Condemn Israel" or similar?

    No. The only sane conclusion is that the protests were not about getting Britain to condemn Israel. If you cannot see that then we have nothing more to discuss.
    It was outside whitehall. And the Israeli embassy. It was about the uk government condemning and us as a people condemning. Are you going to tell me that's anti semitic or insane? Or not 'humanitarian' motivated, because believe it or not, there is only a minority of people which choose time and time again to victimise a state, and sure enough some were with us, and sure enough some were completely politically motivated, but we were there to condemn and to get our government to do the same. Can we stop arguing now?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Israel withdrew from Gaza in almost a decade ago. There is no 'occupation'. By your own explanation the actions of Hamas would not be not self-defence but retribution.
    LOL they withdrew from Gaza? How nice of them!!!!!!11

    What do you mean there is no occupation? Do you seriously believe Palestine = Gaza alone?

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    There has to be a time-scope, otherwise the UK might aswell invade Italy in retalitation for the Roman conquest. Before the kidnappings there was relative peace. Now there is conflict. Why did the conflict start- Hamas kidnapped and killed three Israelis. Pretty simple.
    You are completely right, before the kidnapping of 3 Israeli children there was relative peace because the lives of kidnapped Palestinian children on a daily basis wasn't important enough to blast on news stations across the world. So yes, if we ignore the harassment and arbitrary kidnap and detention of Palestinian children prior to to the kidnap of the 3 Israeli children whose lives are so precious then Hamas did start the conflict.

    You seriously can't be that stupid.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Make you mind up, are we discussing international law, English criminal law, or the harsh reality of actual war? Because you keep floating between each one to suit yourself.
    Strawman? I'm happy you view the imprisonment of 200 Palestinian children as the "harsh reality of actual war". At least you consider it harsh despite your lack of argument there and despite there not being a war there. It's an ethnic cleansing. A genocide. An apartheid.
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    (Original post by Dhibla)
    And you get your source telling you this from? Look I dont care. The UN is reliable, full stop. I see pictures and videos. I read tweets of people there. I hear news reports. And unless you're there first hand to count the people dead, don't argue otherwise.
    The UN is not reliable.

    After 2006 with Lebanon, it only emerged in later months that hundreds more Hezbollah had died than was reported.

    After Cast Lead, the UN found that Hamas 'underestimated' their dead by around 600.

    So the UN figure for the ratio of dead civilians to combatants was skewed

    Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces.

    The figure is several times higher than the previous number of fatalities that Hamas claimed it sustained during the operation.

    Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.

    In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.
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    (Original post by Agapelove)

    I agree that Islam advocates fighting, as the Qur'an states to fight. This war is more than just a geographic one; it's a spiritual one as well. Islam wants control of its 3rd holy city (Jersualem), the one they stole from Judaism, since Muhammad claimed to have flown a winged steed from Arabia to Jerusalem. Islam can't bear the thought of Judaism having Jerusalem back as its only holy city.

    As a pacifist unorthodox Christian I guess the notion of right by conquest misses you, especially when you skip the biblical stories of King Solomon and King David and talk about God's sudden change of mind to command us to love our enemies? .Tell me what internationally law or truces or conventions the early Caliphate violated when in "conquered" Jerusalem or rather when Jerusalem yielded? None. Today Israel is the only "nation" on the planet to openly flout international law with the blessings of the US or could be called a terrorist organization like Hamas?

    You make it sound as if Zionism is religious. And that the fight for the Palestinian cause is a jihad for the Holy Land. If the Zionists could obtain it violently ...still I could as well say that the Jews (Zionists) cannot bear the thought of gentiles in the Temple Mount or Jerusalem in Muslim hands. Its hypocrisy, and statements like those shows clearly what side your biased in favour
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    Look at these despicable people pack up and run.


    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=46b_1406060784



    Basic gist:

    BBC rock up to this Israeli town, start broadcasting their pro-palestinian bull. These two citizens ask if they can give their side of events. The BBC refuses.

    The lady rightly lambasts the BBC for ignoring years of rocket attacks and only reporting when Israel starts to retaliate.

    Despicable BBC.



    Definitely my last thread for the day
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    (Original post by Dhibla)
    It was outside whitehall. And the Israeli embassy. It was about the uk government condemning and us as a people condemning. Are you going to tell me that's anti semitic or insane? Or not 'humanitarian' motivated, because believe it or not, there is only a minority of people which choose time and time again to victimise a state, and sure enough some were with us, and sure enough some were completely politically motivated, but we were there to condemn and to get our government to do the same. Can we stop arguing now?
    I think we ought to agree to disagree. You obviously strongly believe that it makes perfect sense to protest against Israel and no one else. I do not agree with that and believe on the contrary that it makes far less sense to protest against Israel than many others.

    What we both agree with, however, is that those who went on that protest feel more strongly about people being killed by Israel than about a much larger number of people being killed by others. And that, in my book, doesn't paint the protestors in a very good light.
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    Their side of events?


    Why is Israel killing civilians?
    Why did they kill 4 children on a beach?
    Why did they bomb the El-wafa hospital?
    Why are they doing nothing about the illegal settlements on the west bank?
    If they are not targeting civilians why have over 340 of them been killed?

    Before any Pro-Israeli supporters come out and say the much regurgitated "but Hamas operates in civilians areas" please check your facts and tell me if there were any Hamas members in El-Wafa or on the beach that day.

    There is not one credible independent report that so much as suggests the use of human shields by Hamas. The only source for such conduct is unsurprisingly from Israel themselves.

    Another much loved response by Pro-Israeli's is that Israel has honoured every seize fire. Wrong. Just look back at the November 2012 seize fire which they violated.

    You can't have a seize fire whilst still invading Palestinian land. You can't have a seize fire until you end the siege on Gaza. You can't have a seize fire until you own up to and stop using white phosphorus and fletchet rounds in civilian populations.

    Just read this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rlier-hit.html

    An unarmed Palestinian civilian who was looking for his family was shot dead by an Israeli sniper. Before you deny it, there is a video.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I think we ought to agree to disagree. You obviously strongly believe that it makes perfect sense to protest against Israel and no one else. I do not agree with that and believe on the contrary that it makes far less sense to protest against Israel than many others.

    What we both agree with, however, is that those who went on that protest feel more strongly about people being killed by Israel than about a much larger number of people being killed by others. And that, in my book, doesn't paint the protestors in a very good light.


    Well what other terrorist organization has embassies around the world?

    The media, the western media, still portrays Israel as the victimized and that's one of catalysts in these protests. What can potentially be achieved in anti-zionism protests is far greater than what can be achieved in say anti-ISIS protests.

    The innocent killing could easily be stopped if Israel stops its massacre. Obama need only a call. Just think of that. A minute of the president's time and we save countless innocent lives. Unfortunately there's no clear way to stop the massacres of other monsters.

    Its also obvious that Israel is continuing its massacre for political motives. The IDF was itching for some pretext to spill Palestinian blood for a long time to appease the hardliners and their fans in Israel and to ensure that Netanyahu's popularity holds.
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    First reply trying to deflect. Ignored.

    The lady rightly lambasts the BBC for ignoring years of rocket attacks and only reporting when Israel starts to retaliate.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Well what other terrorist organization has embassies around the world?

    The media, the western media, still portrays Israel as the victimized and that's one of catalysts in these protests. What can potentially be achieved in anti-zionism protests is far greater than what can be achieved in say anti-ISIS protests.

    The innocent killing could easily be stopped if Israel stops its massacre. Obama need only a call. Just think of that. A minute of the president's time and we save countless innocent lives. Unfortunately there's no clear way to stop the massacres of other monsters.

    Its also obvious that Israel is continuing its massacre for political motives. The IDF was itching for some pretext to spill Palestinian blood for a long time to appease the hardliners and their fans in Israel and to ensure that Netanyahu's popularity holds.
    The same people who protest against Israel also protested against intervention in Libya or Syria and certainly against Iraq. In a strange sort of way you're right but the result is twisted. Israel is vilified precisely because it is better than so many other countries but the people doing the vilification end up believing that Israel is by far the worst.

    As for whether the "massacre" would end. Yes, in the short term. If Israel stopped its operations then Palestinians in Gaza would not die. But would the rockets against Israelis civilians stop? No. So what choice do the Israelis have? Should they have to live with those rocket attacks because the only way to stop them or reduce them necessarily involves the death of civilians?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The lady rightly lambasts the BBC for ignoring years of rocket attacks and only reporting when Israel starts to retaliate.
    Don't get the impression that Hamas threw the first stone, OP!
    Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.


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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    Muslims do control the Temple Mount, and other holy sites as part of Israel's treaty with Jordan. A Jew is not even allowed to pray there, or use their phones there in case theyre actually praying.



    Jerusalem was a sewage under Jordanian rule.
    Well did I say that Muslims are barred from the Temple Mount? Some parts of Jerusalem is in the hands of the Palestinians, but still agapelove says that a religion (Islam?) cannot bear the thought of Jews holding Jerusalem. Yes. The "courtyard" could be given to the use of gentiles but I don't think the entire Temple Mount is free for Muslims. The Jews can have their share but they plan to extend or build up a temple of Solomon that would eat up the Al-Aqsa mosque or so I've heard.

    Fighting over a sewage... That seems probable. :confused:

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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I think we ought to agree to disagree. You obviously strongly believe that it makes perfect sense to protest against Israel and no one else. I do not agree with that and believe on the contrary that it makes far less sense to protest against Israel than many others.

    What we both agree with, however, is that those who went on that protest feel more strongly about people being killed by Israel than about a much larger number of people being killed by others. And that, in my book, doesn't paint the protestors in a very good light.
    Israel has been at the root of nearly every conflict in the Middle East, everyone who protests against it does so because they know it is the cause of all the instability in the Middle East, acting on behalf of the USA.
 
 
 
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