Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#1701
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#1701
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Firstly, where in your first post had you specified that? My questions were PRECISE. You DIDN"T provide PRECISE answers.

Secondly, NOW you have actually answered my first question, I agree with your position.

But I am 100% sure that HE WILL COME HERE TO CAMPAIGN FOR THE NO SIDE. Have you forgotten that 'every fibre in my body', or something like that, comment?

So my second question was, if he comes here to support the No side, will he have any credibility if he refuses to debate with anyone from the Yes side? Answer Yes or No, like in the referendum question.


As he doesn't get to vote in our referendum I don't see why Cameron should be debating in it.

Why's Salmond not debating with the no campaign?

infact I'd like Salmond to answer why his oil revenue projections are so inflated?
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Maths Tutor
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#1702
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Isn't their. I and many many others from throughout the UK would beg to differ on that one.

If you're after a seperate England then can you please set up you're own thread as I've never really met anybpdy living in England who thinks like that unless they're football supporters.
Well you haven't been reading the comments from English posters in the Mail, Telegraph, even the Guardian, on any article relating to Scottish Independence.

They can't wait to get rid of Scottish 'scroungers', Scots living on English money, Scots biting the hand that feeds them etc, etc, etc.

The worrying thing is that as a Scot yourself, you are happy to live with these permanent jibes of Scottish 'scroungers'. Do you not have any self-respect? I would prefer to be poorer than to be called a 'scrounger'.

You want to live in a marriage of convenience just for the outer glory of 'Great Britain'.

The SNP have repeatedly said that they want Scotland and England to be the best of friends and neighbours as Independent nations. That IS the way it should and will be after Independence.
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Maths Tutor
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#1703
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'm not in a paranoid frame of mind though am I?

you do realise your YouTube clip was never banned? It was created and then its creators said it was banned to create a stir. But it wasn't banned was it. You can say it was banned all you like. But the fact is it wasn't
STOP LYING. 'Bitter Together' got it pulled from youtube several times and tried to get it banned, but were thwarted by more and more uploads.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Well you haven't been reading the comments from English posters in the Mail, Telegraph, even the Guardian, on any article relating to Scottish Independence.

They can't wait to get rid of Scottish 'scroungers', Scots living on English money, Scots biting the hand that feeds them etc, etc, etc.

The worrying thing is that as a Scot yourself, you are happy to live with these permanent jibes of Scottish 'scroungers'. Do you not have any self-respect? I would prefer to be poorer than to be called a 'scrounger'.

You want to live in a marriage of convenience just for the outer glory of 'Great Britain'.

The SNP have repeatedly said that they want Scotland and England to be the best of friends and neighbours as Independent nations. That IS the way it should and will be after Independence.

I've read the comments from the English posters. So what we can say is there's a general low level of intellect, tolerance and mis understanding in equal portions between English nationalists and scottish nationalists. As there also is with welsh, Irish, Cornish, Yorkshire and whatever separate grouping if narrow minded ists throughout the world. I try not to get bothered with what some throbber on a keyboard says on a comments page of a newspaper. After all, if I did I'd be getting upset about being called anti scottish or a quisling which is the atypical nat response.

You keep going on about this outer glory comment. Who's telling you to push this line? and I've asked you before about what it means but you've never answered it. In fact you very rarely answer anything. You just keep responding with rhetoric, sound bites and strap lines which leads me to believe you can't actually argue your point effectively.


I know that the SNP have said they want England and Scotland to be the best of friends. But they've said a lot of things that they don't mean. They promised increase spending in public but said in private they'll be cuts. they've said will be straight into Europe but hid those facts from us and they've said much more which is proven wrong.After all they've completely forgotten about Wales and Northern Ireland in all of this. And they can say that they want to be best if friends but when the bill comes in fir this and the negotiating starts then it'll turn into the usual bitter divorce arguments. Everybody's a looser other than a few select politicians who all of a sudden get to secure themselves nice places in books with pensions to go along.
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MatureStudent36
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#1705
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
STOP LYING. 'Bitter Together' got it pulled from youtube several times and tried to get it banned, but were thwarted by more and more uploads.

I'm not though am I. You've even stated that TSR won't allow it to be posted but its still there.

infact the only people who are saying it's banned is the new collective which is a group of artistic luvvies who support the SNP who have set up a website to spread the bullsh1t. Interestingly they claim that they get on line a lot to spread the message. Are you one of them? How's the fundraising going as you don't seem to have moved very far up the target board? Blue Peter appeals are a lot more effective. Maybe they should've collected milk bottle tops instead.

I'd hazard a guess that somebody in your communications department is trying to create a viral hit.. Slight problem though.. Nobody can create one even by saying its banned. Best to try and do something with dancing cats.

in fact. Here it is for you. Enjoy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbwmzcnCF50
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dixie2013
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#1706
I would just like to say a few things but before i go any further, im Scottish and i don't hate the English in the slightest so please no stupid responses.

Scotland is constantly being shafted by the UK government in any way possible and always has (http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf) and a result of Scotland being part of the Union, Scotland can't do nothing about it. For example Bedroom Tax, over 90% of MSP's opposed it but still it is being enforced in Scotland.

Scotland pays its way in the UK and that is a fact even though a lot of people say Scotland scrounges of England.

National debt should be split according to population witch is fair.

The North Sea oil is in Scottish waters so therefor belongs to Scotland as i see it, but West Minster say the fish in the North Sea is yours but the Oil in the North Sea is ours. That makes no sense.

The UK government only cares about making the rich richer and the poor poorer FACT.

Now this is only my point of view but please think of this before commenting. If the coin was flipped, you would want the exact same thing.

I welcome all civilized reply's.
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dixie2013
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If it was the other way about Westminster would be asking for the same things. True.

Now what really annoys me is the personal attacks on people for being Scottish, English, Welsh or NI

Another thing that really gets on my nerves is people saying Scotland scrounges of the rest of the UK. Please if you are going to write false information please do not bother contributing to any discussion relating to this matter because if you cant be bothered to check facts, well whats the point.

With false information and no fact checking you are just feeding more people with misinformation and you end up in silly little arguments that start getting personal.

Thanks
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L i b
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#1708
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
You are in complete denial. You need to get your "myopic insular outlook" cured pretty fast.

PROOF that the 'Bitter Together' anti-Independence Axis DID TRY to get the 'Unionist Myths' video BANNED from youtube can be found here
They got it removed because it infringed their copyright. Which is what thousands of organisations do when copyright infringement occurs on Youtube every day.

"Top 10 Unionist Myths — Debunked — Banned — Re-Debunked"

http://storify.com/national/top-10-u...n-re-debu.html
I encourage everyone to watch that video. It shows precisely the absolute stupidity of the Nationalist argument.
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L i b
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#1709
(Original post by AJ_Moose)
The English have already made it clear we don't want regional assemblies.
England is one nation with one flag and one language last time I checked. The various cultures that make up the national demographic do not detract from the fact we are one people and one nation.
You cannot 'check' what is a matter of subjective opinion. Nations don't actually exist objectively - and when people go around calling something a 'nation' it usually has more to do with their own prejudices than any sort of determinable criteria. This is one of the reasons that nationalism is an ideology which breeds division and conflict.

Yes, the different cultures within England do certainly detract from the English people being somehow unified. If you are going to base your nation on a myth of cultural homogeneity, it is obvious that it will be most clearly debunked by showing that there is no such homogeneity.

George Orwell described nationalism as the "habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects". We have tried so many times in human history to do just that. In the past we saw other terrific examples of this habit. In religion where a myth of commonality which led not only to conflict with other faiths, but of the crazed cleansing of what we labeled as heresy within our own.

In ethnicity and race, we took variations between people and invented a whole pseudoscience around it to show just how different our groups were - when in fact the only real differences were the ones we had created beforehand and used perverted logic to try to justify after the fact.

There is no British nationality. It's ridiculous to keep perpetuating this illusion to prop up the union.
Oh, please. If you're going to be a nationalist, at least be self-aware enough to acknowledge that your Truth on identity is not the only one out there.
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L i b
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#1710
(Original post by AJ_Moose)
Nope. This island is made up of three very different nations that identify with their own countrymen.

No one in Scotland flies the Union Jack apart from Rangers fans.
I wonder if you've ever actually been to Scotland. The Union Jack is widely flown. This isn't the bloody Falls Roads. Indeed, for an example of that you could have walked around any town in Scotland during the Jubilee last year.

No one in Scotland says "I'm British' when you ask them, they say they're Scottish.
I say I'm Scottish in some contexts and British in other. Just like the vast majority of Scottish people.
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L i b
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#1711
(Original post by AJ_Moose)
No I haven't. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. Hence 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Very surprised you don't know that basic fact. Nor is Northern Ireland a nation.
Jesus, we'll be getting the skull-measurement charts out next. Let me say this one thing to you: your classification of what is and is not a nation is nothing more than your own daft prejudices.

Northern Ireland is indeed part of Britain, by any dictionary definition and indeed by almost universal usage. It is not part of Great Britain, which is a term which can mean two things: the island, or - in statute - the entity comprising England, Wales and Scotland.

I disagree.The vast majority of times they describe themselves as Scottish and will waive the Saltire as apposed to the Union Jack.
Oh, so it's now 'the vast majority' rather than 'no-one' in Scotland, eh? By the end of this thread, presumably it will be 'some people'

(Original post by AJ_Moose)
I was talking about Britain in correct terms. The island of Britain with its three nations. I was talking about the British identity within the three nations of Britain hence why I didn't mention Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is province. Nothing I've said is factually incorrect.
Northern Ireland is not a province by any official estimation. It has been officially referred to as a country, but in law is nothing more than a part of the United Kingdom.

As for everything else, you've just made it up.

I see Northern Ireland as occupied land which should be handed back to the Irish from whom it was snatched. I didn't deem it appropriate to include Northern Ireland in a discussion on British identity for those reasons.
Whether you see it as such or not, it is - as a point of objective fact - not. Northern Ireland cannot be occupied as it is an integral part of the United Kingdom.

It's one thing to have opinions, it's quite another to base them entirely on falsehoods that you've never bothered to investigate - or are to blinded by your own partisanship to acknowledge when you see them discredited.
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L i b
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#1712
(Original post by dixie2013)
I would just like to say a few things but before i go any further, im Scottish and i don't hate the English in the slightest so please no stupid responses.

Scotland is constantly being shafted by the UK government in any way possible and always has (http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf) and a result of Scotland being part of the Union, Scotland can't do nothing about it.
Try not reading Scottish nationalist websites and accepting what they say as fact. The "McCrone Report" is frankly a load of made-up rubbish. It was political analysis by a civil servant, which is routinely kept classified. We have no idea who it was circulated to. It relied on estimates about oil production which were not only in the public domain - but which were actually overly optimistic and didn't pan out.

Scotland has received back the oil income and more by its vastly higher level of public spending.

The UK government only cares about making the rich richer and the poor poorer FACT.
Oh, I'm sorry, you're clearly an idiot.

I welcome all civilized reply's.
Try making a civilised observation first.
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AJ_Moose
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#1713
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#1713
(Original post by L i b)
Jesus, we'll be getting the skull-measurement charts out next. Let me say this one thing to you: your classification of what is and is not a nation is nothing more than your own daft prejudices.

Northern Ireland is indeed part of Britain, by any dictionary definition and indeed by almost universal usage. It is not part of Great Britain, which is a term which can mean two things: the island, or - in statute - the entity comprising England, Wales and Scotland.



Oh, so it's now 'the vast majority' rather than 'no-one' in Scotland, eh? By the end of this thread, presumably it will be 'some people'



Northern Ireland is not a province by any official estimation. It has been officially referred to as a country, but in law is nothing more than a part of the United Kingdom.

As for everything else, you've just made it up.



Whether you see it as such or not, it is - as a point of objective fact - not. Northern Ireland cannot be occupied as it is an integral part of the United Kingdom.

It's one thing to have opinions, it's quite another to base them entirely on falsehoods that you've never bothered to investigate - or are to blinded by your own partisanship to acknowledge when you see them discredited.
Learn how to multi quote.

Northern Ireland is not part of the island of (Great) Britain as I made clear that was what I was referring to. Read my posts before you make me repeat things I've already been through.

Here is one source of NI being reffered to as a province: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/no...orporation-tax

Here is the Oxford dictionary definition: http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...hern%2BIreland

When I say 'no one' it is clear I'm generalising unless you suffer from autism and take everything as literal? Like everyone in this thread, they state their views based on their experiences. It is my experience that Scots wave the Saltire and say they're Scottish 9/10 times as opposed to the English who will routinely refer to themselves as British and prioritise the Union Jack over the St. George's cross.

Let me state this one last time:

  • I have been referring to Britain as the island north-west of continental Europe. I have not been referring to Britain as popular short-hand for the entire UK.
  • I have not included Northern Ireland in my statements on British identity because NI is not a nation. The people mainly align themselves with 'Irish' or 'British' identities and very few people talk as if NI is a nation in its self like England or Scotland.


Read it over and over till you understand it before you come screaming in saying I've simply made things up.
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dixie2013
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Yeh im an idiot because my view is different from yours ok then.

Even Mr Cameron's sidekick doesn't trust him and openly admitted it.

Now like i said, The UK government does care about anyone apart from itself and London. This bedroom tax is only "needed" because of the housing problems in London. Housing benefit was designed to pay for normal rent rates like maybe max £400pm but in London they have immigrants are getting mansions and rent has been reduced by council for them to stay in them but the lowered rent is still £1000pm.

Trident - Scotland never wanted this or ANY type of weapons of mass destruction but it still got put on the river Clyde.

Also Scotland pays 9.9% of UK tax with only just 8.4% of the UK's population. Please do the math!
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by dixie2013)
Yeh im an idiot because my view is different from yours ok then.

Even Mr Cameron's sidekick doesn't trust him and openly admitted it.

Now like i said, The UK government does care about anyone apart from itself and London. This bedroom tax is only "needed" because of the housing problems in London. Housing benefit was designed to pay for normal rent rates like maybe max £400pm but in London they have immigrants are getting mansions and rent has been reduced by council for them to stay in them but the lowered rent is still £1000pm.

Trident - Scotland never wanted this or ANY type of weapons of mass destruction but it still got put on the river Clyde.

Also Scotland pays 9.9% of UK tax with only just 8.4% of the UK's population. Please do the math!

The bedroom tax was introduced to help out London? I've heard it all now.

The bedroom tax isn't a tax. It's areduction in benefits to stop people being subsidised for living in over sized houses that are too big for them. It doesn't just benefit London. It benefits people like me. Why am I having to pay for for somebody to live in a big house with spare bedrooms when I can't get that luxury myself.

Trident- Well it's an insurance policy. On the Clyde, or off the Clyde we'll still be getting protected by it as a member of NATO. (if we're let in as the SNPs defence policy is somewhat flawed.)

I pay more in Tax than I get out. Is that fare? Incidentally you're number that you're quoting miss out many things such as the loss of income from being in the UK.
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MatureStudent36
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#1716
(Original post by dixie2013)
If it was the other way about Westminster would be asking for the same things. True.

Now what really annoys me is the personal attacks on people for being Scottish, English, Welsh or NI

Another thing that really gets on my nerves is people saying Scotland scrounges of the rest of the UK. Please if you are going to write false information please do not bother contributing to any discussion relating to this matter because if you cant be bothered to check facts, well whats the point.

With false information and no fact checking you are just feeding more people with misinformation and you end up in silly little arguments that start getting personal.

Thanks

Good. Can people stop quoting NewsNetScotland or the other websites that have sprung up to promote untruths.
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dixie2013
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The bedroom tax was introduced to help out London? I've heard it all now.

The bedroom tax isn't a tax. It's areduction in benefits to stop people being subsidised for living in over sized houses that are too big for them. It doesn't just benefit London. It benefits people like me. Why am I having to pay for for somebody to live in a big house with spare bedrooms when I can't get that luxury myself.
I never said it was to help London, I was giving an example. Referring to things like this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-streets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-trashed.html

Call it what you want but yes i agree with it in a sense but it has not been thought out.

For example, Me, my disabled partner and my 2 sons stay in a 3 bedroom house. Now i am returning to work next month as i am no longer needed to care for my partner after her brain aneurism but we just received a letter saying we have to pay extra because technically we have a "spare" room. Well now looking at the vague quid lines defining living space/floorspace. My smallest room is 1ft bigger that what is classed as a boxroom but the way the room is set out, over 1.5sqm cant be used for anything. So the room should be classed for half a person (Child under 12). My other sons room size is enough for 1 person or 2 children under 12. So i could put my 2 sons in the room even though you cannon put 2 beds in the room or a set of bunk beds in the room as the only place they would fit is at a window with is a safety issue. But if i was forced to do that, how the hell am i meant to sublet a room to a child. Its ridiculous.
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dixie2013
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Good. Can people stop quoting NewsNetScotland or the other websites that have sprung up to promote untruths.
No these are facts. Even the UK gov doesn't dispute this. (talking about anything ive said, not things ive not said)

So basically what you are saying is, anything the YES campaign is saying is lies and anything the NO campaign is the truth.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by dixie2013)
I never said it was to help London, I was giving an example. Referring to things like this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-streets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-trashed.html

Call it what you want but yes i agree with it in a sense but it has not been thought out.

For example, Me, my disabled partner and my 2 sons stay in a 3 bedroom house. Now i am returning to work next month as i am no longer needed to care for my partner after her brain aneurism but we just received a letter saying we have to pay extra because technically we have a "spare" room. Well now looking at the vague quid lines defining living space/floorspace. My smallest room is 1ft bigger that what is classed as a boxroom but the way the room is set out, over 1.5sqm cant be used for anything. So the room should be classed for half a person (Child under 12). My other sons room size is enough for 1 person or 2 children under 12. So i could put my 2 sons in the room even though you cannon put 2 beds in the room or a set of bunk beds in the room as the only place they would fit is at a window with is a safety issue. But if i was forced to do that, how the hell am i meant to sublet a room to a child. Its ridiculous.
Well you did say

This bedroom tax is only "needed" because of the housing problems in London.

I'm sorry for your situation (If it's true) but start having a go at the people who are not disabled ruining it for other people and it's not just in London. It's everywhere as we've created a culture of entitlement. And as you've stated, you're returning to work.

Many of us growing up as Children had to share bedrooms. But then again we all came from families that didn't expect anybody else to foot the bill. And you're not paying extra. It's a case of teh taxpayer having to pay less.

The simple fact is everywhere in the UK lives beyond it's means. Politicians since the ened of the war have got in by promising the electorate more and more freebies. Salmonds great at this. Free this, Free that, Free whatever you want just as long as you vote for me. The problem is that he doesn't have to deliver it. All he has to deliver is a yes vote and nothing else, so you'll forgive me for not buying into the bluster.
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MatureStudent36
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#1720
(Original post by dixie2013)
No these are facts. Even the UK gov doesn't dispute this. (talking about anything ive said, not things ive not said)

So basically what you are saying is, anything the YES campaign is saying is lies and anything the NO campaign is the truth.
I think you'll find that most of the facts on NewsNetScotland are disputed. Disputed by independent sources as well.

If you're thinking Websites that are pushing an agenda can be quoted as fact you may want to start reviewing some of the facts that the BNP, Combat 18 and Islamic fundamentalists websites are pushing. In that case the Holocaust didn't happen, Immigration is the root of all of our problems and Israel is evil.....but that's not really the case is it as we're able to make balanced opinion on all of the facts available.
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