Thousands, "up to a million" march to US Capitol against 'Obama the socialist' Watch

punktopia
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#161
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#161
(Original post by wilko1991)
Your the same person who wants to ban smoking on the street. You are not an "anarchist". Socialism and anarchism are on the opposite in the political spectrum.
You don't understand basic concepts, so no point talking to you.
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punktopia
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(Original post by Collingwood)
The people who organise and attend these marches broadly are against state education &c. on principle. Unless you're rather wealthy it's quite difficult to actually avoid using these state services because not only do you have to pay twice, but the "free" alternative have destroyed the middle and low budget markets. In some cases (eg. roads) it is simply impossible to use private alternatives because the state claims de-facto ownership of all the land they could be built on through zoning/planning laws. (The NHS does have a "death panel", btw: it will stop treating you when you cost more than £30,000 per quality adjusted life year. And in fact this system has led to a number of scandals in Britain as well, eg. the poor provision of cancer and alzheimer's drugs).



That's not a landslide. This is a landslide:




On the basis that you favour policies that expand state power over those that reduce it. In my experience this is the key difference between left anarchists and anarcho capitalists: ancaps actually want to destroy the state, whereas left-anarchists want to build it up into a totalitarian monstrosity, educate everyone as to their Best and Correct way of living, and then remove the state only when its coercive powers are no longer necessary to ensure obedience. This idea is as impractical as it is inconsistent.


A good number of anarchists have been grownups, and a good number of dictators have been children.
I could go into why free-market capitalism is evil, but I've done it so many times before it gets boring. I honestly believe that there would be more freedom under a socialist government than this capitalist pseudo-democracy.
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faber niger
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#163
(Original post by punktopia)
I could go into why free-market capitalism is evil, but I've done it so many times before it gets boring. I honestly believe that there would be more freedom under a socialist government than this capitalist pseudo-democracy.
No government (or lack thereof) can give us the amount of freedome we desire. Being constrained is being human.

We can certainly do better than laissez-faire capitalism though.
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Ayla Phoenix
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#164
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#164
(Original post by jismith1989)


I'm with you on the general point though.
Emergency services*
:ninja:
Now I can't go back and innocuously edit my first post because you've quoted me.
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snipex
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(Original post by herzblut)
If they think socialism is so bad maybe Obama should forget the whole free healthcare thing. I mean seeing as the people are so against socialised public services.

Oh, and while he's at it he should get rid of all the other evil socialised public services, like public libraries. And public transport. Don't forget evvvilll public schools! The US postal service too!
Don't forget that the US government subsidises American farmers - stop eating all food now, it's communist!
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punktopia
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(Original post by jismith1989)
No government (or lack thereof) can give us the amount of freedome we desire. Being constrained is being human.

We can certainly do better than laissez-faire capitalism though.
So humans didn't exist before government?
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faber niger
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#167
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(Original post by punktopia)
So humans didn't exist before government?
No, but we were certainly constrained by all kinds of things before government, as we are now -- no one has ever had absolute freedom, or anything like it.
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punktopia
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(Original post by jismith1989)
No, but we were certainly constrained by all kinds of things before government, as we are now -- no one has ever had absolute freedom, or anything like it.
Even cavemen?

Are you talking about human restrictions, or things like, say, gravity?
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faber niger
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(Original post by punktopia)
Even cavemen?

Are you talking about human restrictions, or things like, say, gravity?
Well, both (although maybe not as evident and all-encompassing as gravity). Surely the lives of cavemen would have been hard, brutish and short? They may well have been on constant look-out for attack from fellow cave-folks as well as having to starve, if they couldn't find enough food -- or if someone stole their food.
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punktopia
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(Original post by jismith1989)
Well, both (although maybe not as evident and all-encompassing as gravity). Surely the lives of cavemen would have been hard, brutish and short? They may well have been on constant look-out for attack from fellow cave-folks as well as having to starve, if they couldn't find enough food -- or if someone stole their food.
In all honesty we can't really know how cavemen lived. But there are cases of altruism and collectivism within the animal kingdom. I don't think human beings are born to be restricted, or incapable of experiencing freedom (unless we're going to go all metaphysical and/or spiritual). I believe society creates restraints, rules, borders - and - even if it doesn't create aggression itself, it certainly encourages it... capitalism of course being particularly guilty of this.
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Collingwood
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#171
(Original post by punktopia)
I could go into why free-market capitalism is evil, but I've done it so many times before it gets boring. I honestly believe that there would be more freedom under a socialist government than this capitalist pseudo-democracy.
Well, I am not an apologist for democracy or 'the status quo', nor do I think that this is an untenable position. I just don't think it's compatible with anarchism.
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Shadowplay
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I like that photo of Obama elections and Reagan/Bush elections. I guess America has made some progress in the last 30 years. Just another 30 years and everyone will actually be thinking clearly, not pointing fingers yelling "communist" at everyone who wants a more just country :rolleyes:
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az1992
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haha,

its not just some americans who are ignorrant though,

there is a tsr user who in his sig, compares Obama to Lenin, Stalin and Castro with the purpose of portraying Obama's ideas as communist.

Seems like this particular individual doesnt know the difference between communism and socialism which are two COMPLETELEY different ideas
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Tuki2ki2
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#174
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'You want socialism? Go to Russia!'
honestly are they idiots?? Russia isnt even communist anymore....
American's are such idiots!!!
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Philosopher-of-sorts
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WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

* Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.
* Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.
* Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.
* Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.
* A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.
* Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.
* A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.
* A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

* Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.
* Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.
* A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.
* Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.
* Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.
* An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

* Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.
* An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.
* The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

* A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.
* The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.
* The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.
* A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

* State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.
* Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.
* Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
* Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.
* Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

* Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

* An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.

At least read what's actually in the bill before calling it socialist. And to those saying there is a 'public option', there largely isn't, except for the temporary program available until 2014 until the exchange opens, so there isn't even that excuse for calling it supposedly 'socialised'.
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Lord_Farquad
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#176
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Amen. **** Obama and **** all you dirty socialists on TSR.

I can't wait until you lot actually start earning money and then start *****ing about how the government steals from your pay checks, maybe then you tards will wake up and smell the ****.
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thunder_chunky
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Well I don't see anything wrong with them protesting if they have a lack of faith in what he is suggesting and implementing and if they have a lack of faith in the President.

I can't even begin to imagine how hard Obama has been hit in the polls after this.

(Original post by KirstyK)
Thankfully there are still some Republicans thinking and breathing! :woo:
Fail
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coffee&cigarettes
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i honestly don't understand this.

is their view actually "what obama's doing - with giving people FREE healthcare instead of our ridiculous system where you get a bill upon leaving the hospital if you're rushed from a car accident or are having a heart attack - is WRONG and he should be stopped?"

have i misunderstood? wtf?
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meowmeowmutiny
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#179
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(Original post by Lord_Farquad)
Amen. **** Obama and **** all you dirty socialists on TSR.

I can't wait until you lot actually start earning money and then start *****ing about how the government steals from your pay checks, maybe then you tards will wake up and smell the ****.
Some of us are capable of earning money without complaining about help given to those less fortunate than us. I may not appreciate the scale of the benefits system but public schooling and healthcare are a different matter.
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L i b
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#180
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(Original post by a_t)
Americans are retarded.

They seem to think the left wing goes hand in hand with totalitarianism
Quite right too.



(Original post by coffee&cigarettes)
i honestly don't understand this.

is their view actually "what obama's doing - with giving people FREE healthcare instead of our ridiculous system where you get a bill upon leaving the hospital if you're rushed from a car accident or are having a heart attack - is WRONG and he should be stopped?"

have i misunderstood? wtf?
There's no such thing as 'free' anything if someone is being paid for it. As one of the placards read: 'you think healthcare is expensive? Just wait till it's free'.

Anyway, I don't think you - or indeed anything but a tiny minority of British people - understand the American healthcare system at all.

I fully agree, however, that people should generally pay for their own medical treatment, just as they are expected to pay for everything else they want.
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