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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Does your ignorance know no bounds?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

    The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

    The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

    A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

    In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."


    If it was one rouge Bishop, then why was it repeated by a senior cardinal and not refuted nor condemned by the Pope? The message from the highest levels of the Vatican, is that they agree with telling Africans that condoms have holes in them which spread AIDS. It's irrefutable, it's disgusting, it's evil.



    Im talking about suicide attacks, not simple terrorism. I provided you with examples also. Now show me an example of a non religious person flying a plane into a building knowing he is about to kill thousands and himself.



    As for scientific study, i will quote you the one i posted earlier, which you ignored. I let it slip but you have shot yourself in the foot by bringing it back up again. It is a study which linked higher levels of religion with higher murder, rape and crime rates. Especially in the bible belt America.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...y-gregory-paul

    and i notice the user above has also quoted the study in the Times case you were going to commit genetic fallacy.



    Science cannot disprove or prove flying space pigs. But a) it suggests their existence is highly improbable and b) there is absolutely no evidence for them.

    The same goes for god. Seeing as you deal in absolutes you surely must believe in the space pigs also? If not you must admit you are a hypocrite for disbeliving the existence of these divine creatures for the same reasons i disbelieve your divine master.

    Also, science and history disprove most of the Bible, including Genesis,Exodus and the majority of the new testament. Why is an apparently smart guy like you (2yy Allowing himself to bellieve fully in these fallacious, inaccurate stories? Surely it's quite insulting to your 'intelligence' to claim these thingss to be true in the face of modern science, logic and reason?

    What is it exactly which causes you to believe in the ancient myths of primitive man?





    This is the stupidest argument you have made yet. You will notice that the reason scientific study was allowed to bloom was because of the renaissance, which was a rejection of the totalitarian power of mother church. If you would take a peek before that revolution of thought and ideas, you would find that christianity sought to stifle scientific and philosophical challenges to it's supreme authority by the most brutal of means, mean which make the Taliban look kind and loving. I believe the pre renaissance christian term for scientist was 'heretic'.




    Just because you can't prove or disprove God's existence, this does not mean that the probability for his existence is equal to the opposite probability. That much is obvious to even a child.




    Says the guy who believes that a being of supreme power created an unimaginably vast universe with him in mind. That he created all biological beings for his use and rule, and that he created him in the image of this hyper complex being no less.

    And you say I have a superiority complex for accepting the reality of our near non-existence on a universal scale?





    Ad Hom!? Who would've expected?

    I said it in my post before and i will say it again. Insults to my intelligence fail when they come from you. If you want to trust the words of bronze age, illiterate peasants(the story of which, it has been widely accepted is a complete fiction), or a "messiah" The like of which was seen countless times in the ancient world, and was nothing new, instead being almost completely unoriginal. Over modern day, scientists, the collective knowledge of whom is infinitely more vast than that of your prophet or messiah. Then be my guest. But accepthow ridiculous you look when trying to be insulting to others.
    The Catholic churches actions are reprehensible then, but it is your fault they have such power and control there. Atheist organisations are more than welcome to go and feed Africa and gain some form of control of information in exactly the same way the Catholic church does, but Atheists do very little.

    I already answered that article; America is based on Christian values - i.e. the freedom for people to do whatever they want. Such a country based on negative liberty and capitalism will always have higher levels of social ills. It is the negative liberty created by Christianity that allows you to freely do almost anything you want, so you should be thankful you are not in a Muslim land yet. Like I said, people could suicide bomb/murder/fight for any reason, and they have; war, politics, power, ideology etc. I'm not really in the habit of defending Muslims to be honest; I will concede that being a Muslim makes your chances of murdering higher for religion than Christianity does, however the murder rates themselves in their states are no where near as high because they are highly controlled, which cancels out.

    I look ridiculous when I insult others? You started it you pleb. You claim to hate religion and fanaticism, as well a love of freedom, yet you plague every Muslim related thread on here with your liberal Guardian fag agenda. If any religion is going to take away what you want it is Islam. Christianity really hasn't changed/had an affect on your life, so I don't get the chip on your shoulder. Furthermore your basic knowledge of science interpreted towards your own beliefs (or lack thereof) is just exactly that, your interpretation, the ramifications of scientific theory are not as cast iron as the science itself, and you could really do yourself some favours by at least admitting you are bias. As far as i'm concerned Christianity encourages me to give more time and money than I otherwise would, and also makes me into a better person because my morals aren't subject to change with my whims/needs.
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    (Original post by roachy1)
    All the reasons i gave were evolutionary beneficial.
    You haven't explained why it's evolutionarily beneficial - you've only explained why it's beneficial.

    You've explained how it might benefit society, but you haven't explained how a particular creature being homosexual gives it a better chance of reproducing before death (which is what evolutionary benefit is).

    We do not need this discussion to disprove God as there are far better disproofs available (firstly there is no evidence for God)).
    "There's no evidence" is not a disproof of God, it's simply a lack of proof for God.

    Furthermore, when you say "there's no evidence", what you really mean is "I haven't personally seen evidence". You can't possibly state with any conviction that not a single shred of evidence even exists, unless you've scoured every nook and cranny of the universe searching for it!

    Homosexuality is clearly a genetic trait. The vast majority of the scientific community agree with that. Only pseudo scientists sponsered by creationist crackpot orgainsations would suggest otherwise. Also there is no flaw in Darwinian evolution, it is close to the perfect theory of life and our existance.
    Maybe you're right - but the two statements you've made are conflicting with each other no less than the idea of God and bisexuality existing simultaneously.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The Catholic churches actions are reprehensible then, but it is your fault they have such power and control there. Atheist organisations are more than welcome to go and feed Africa and gain some form of control of information in exactly the same way the Catholic church does, but Atheists do very little.

    Now you are just being absurd. If you do not even know that the largest charity organisations in the world are secular, like the Red Cross, or amnesty international, then it is no wonder you are doing so badly in this discussion. :rolleyes:

    I already answered that article; America is based on Christian values - i.e. the freedom for people to do whatever they want. Such a country based on negative liberty and capitalism will always have higher levels of social ills. It is the negative liberty created by Christianity that allows you to freely do almost anything you want, so you should be thankful you are not in a Muslim land yet.

    But these people are supposed to be following christian values aren't they? :teehee: Why is it that it is the bible belt, which contains some of the most religious and devout communities in the world, which have such high murder and crime rates? And less of your complete rubbish about free will :rofl: You fail to explain why these abnormalities exist. You can blame capitalism all you want. But the fact remains these people are christians, and devout ones at that.

    So no you haven/t answered that point at all.

    Like I said, people could suicide bomb/murder/fight for any reason, and they have; war, politics, power, ideology etc.
    Still no examples. :nope: I can provide many, all in the name of religion, and not just Islamic. So if these suicide bombings have taken place without religious reasoning and justification, why can't you list them?



    I'm not really in the habit of defending Muslims to be honest;

    Fine then. Lets talk about the Hindu suicide bombers in Sri Lanka, or the Buddhist and shinto priests who recruited the kamikaze suicide bombers who were led to believe their emporer was the 'Golden wheel turning, sacred king'. Which is one of the four manifestations of Buddha.

    I will concede that being a Muslim makes your chances of murdering higher for religion than Christianity does,
    Really?! Are you really going to make that assumption when only 16 years ago there was a genocide in Rwanda carried out by the catholic majority, Hutu people. Who slaughtered en masse the Tutsi minority, they gathered schoolchildren, mothers an babies, who they termed 'cockraoches'. And murdered them all in cold blood. They were led by none other than a Catholic visionary named 'little pebbles' who was supported by the religious establishment and justified his actions with God and the Bible, and the events were preceded by numerous miraculous sightings all grounded in Christianity; Appirations on a hilltop named Kibeho were investigated by the catholic church itself and announced to be reliable.
    During the Genocide many of the Tutsi sought refuge in churches, to their error. The priests and bishops, justifying their actions as gods will contacted the Hutu death squads and betrayed the terrified people to brutal death, rape and torture.

    After the genocide, many priests, bishops and nuns went on trial. Although that didn't stop the church trying to protect it's own. One of the more notable priests who took a great part in the atrocity was smuggled into France and allowed to resume his 'pastoral duties' by the French Church!

    And where was the denunciation from the Vatican of this crime against humanity? You guessed it. There wasn't one, in the same way there was no denunciation of the Churches part in the holocaust or of it's support of Hitler. Absolutely nothing.

    Oh and before you try and worm out of it, with the excuse you use above ie: Thats the catholic churches problem not mine. Remember you are defending religion and the good it does in the world. Not to ention the fact that the catholic church makes up a huge portion of the Christian faith, and justifies it's actions on the same teachings.

    But of course, if you would prefer i could list some protestant or Orthodox travesties, just to be consistent?

    Also, before you accuse me (As you regularly do) of bias towards Islam. On the same continent there was an atrocity being justified by a different book (Qu'ran) In Darfur, where African Muslims were being massacred by Arab Muslims. Although it was not as terrible as the genocide in Rwanda. It was still enabled by the same means and the same God.


    If any religion is going to take away what you want it is Islam. Christianity really hasn't changed/had an affect on your life, so I don't get the chip on your shoulder. Furthermore your basic knowledge of science interpreted towards your own beliefs (or lack thereof) is just exactly that, your interpretation.
    No. You are the one who is making giant leaps of faith not me. Our theories on whether God exists are not equal, as you keep stupidly asserting. If all theories were equally good then there would be no reason to believe anything, since anyone could formulate a theory that it was false. We determine whether theories are good or bad on the basis of what evidence there is to believe them. A theory that you can flap your arms and fly is quickly discredited by the absence of evidence. A theory that if I pinch my leg it will hurt is quickly supported by evidence.

    Of course there are lots of theories we believe in without having direct evidence ourselves, but these are usually fairly plausible, compatible with our other beliefs, and supported by creditable physical evidence. Theories about vast immortal beings that exist everywhere without giving any physical indication of their presence contradict nearly all our other theories about science and the world, and should require extraordinary evidence to support them. Evidence of which the onus is on you to produce.

    As far as i'm concerned Christianity encourages me to give more time and money than I otherwise would, and also makes me into a better person because my morals aren't subject to change with my whims/needs.

    No, your morals are subject to the whims and needs of an immortal dictator you call god. If you follow your teachings then you should follow god above all else. In which case you rever Abraham who was ready to sacrifice his son for god. Or the Israelites who commited genocide against the Amalekites on Gods orders. (Not long after he laid down the comandment 'Thou shalt not kill' :curious:) You should be following the apparent 'son of god' Jesus who ordered you to 'think not of the morrow' Give absolutely no thought to the future because it doesn' matter anyway.

    How do these things make your morals greater than mine? If you truly think they do, then you are truly dense. You assertion also suggests that you believe without god or christianity you would be an immoral raping, baby eater. Maybe you and your religious brethren are just insecure. But i, as an individual and free human being know i don't need a god or a prohpet who claims to be superior to me, to dictate what my morals are.

    But you obviously do. :yy:
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    You got me. I'm just about going to dismiss every statement I did as false and live the rest of my atheist life.

    No, really I feel, it time I stop this madness. In fact, looking back at the last few reposts, of you vs me one can clearly see what game you are playing. Enough to dismiss your stupid debating techniques. See you next thread hopefully.:jebus:

    Another non argument? :rolleyes: Another desperate attempt to avoid admitting that you don't have any answers for my points. I think thats three in a row now.

    Try Harder next time. :yy:
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Large chunks of the bible weren't removed you tool, the only difference post reformation is that everyone could interpret the bible for themselves.
    go look in the king james bible, then at a chatholic one, you'll notice entire books are missing!
    (Original post by Elipsis)
    If every law of physics contradicted with Chrisitianity i'm pretty sure my Christian girlfriend wouldn't be doing a masters in it...She knows more physics than either you or Aeolus will ever know.
    :p: :p: good for her.. provide me with some evidence of god and i'll take what you say into account. Claims made with no eevidence are dismissed without any, damn thats been in my head all day.. DAMN YOU TSR.
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    Allow me to letter these as separate points...

    (Original post by Aeolus)

    A) Oh you mean when Eve bravely disobeyed the tyrannical dictator who had forbidden her from becoming smart, and chucked her and her husband out of the little zoo he had created for them in order to keep himself amused, like a child does with hamsters?

    I always forget how loving your god is. :curious:





    B) So if evil wasn't created by god, it could be said to have power over him, or did it exist before him? Which would stop him being omnipotent and he would cease to be god.





    C) :laugh: I love the christian interpretation of free will. 'You have the freedom to choose, as long as you choose what i tell you to choose.'
    A) No, she was given the free will to do whatever she wanted, and was warned that the tree would bring pain into the world. She was tempted, and she failed to resist the temptation. It's a metaphor, anyway.

    B) If you think that cold has power over warmth, then perhaps. Otherwise... No. Evil is what is there when God isn't. It's only inside people's minds, but that's where it wants to be. I say 'wants', that's like talking about electrons 'deciding' - it's an analogy , OK?

    C) No. We have free will to do whatever we want to do. The only reason we (Christians) obey God is because when you love someone, you want to make them happy, right? Well, I do. I don't know about you. The way to make someone happy is to do what they want you to do. If they love you back, what they want you to do will be good for you. That's why the ten commandments are so foolproof. Plus, I'm pretty certain that you're going to drag the idea of Hell into this argument somewhere, so allow me to pre-empt that (It sort of comes under this point). Hell is where you will go if you have chosen that you would rather live your (after)life without God, makes sense? Well, it's an absence of God. Don't say something silly like "But if God existed, i would want to go to heaven" because if you truly wanted to go to heaven, you would believe. (At this point I realise that I am getting tired, and that the quality of my typing will go steadily downhill from here on). If someone loves you, the one thing you can do above all others to signal that you don't want to spend eternity with them is to refuse to acknowledge their existence. God loves everyone, and wants to give them whatever they want. If they want to spend eternity without Him, then He will give it to them. Not out of spite, but because when you love someone, you do your best to give them what they want.

    I'd better stop typing before I fall asleep on the keys. Sorry i couldn't be more coherent.
    Oh yeah, and one last thing:

    D) I edited the quote of your post because I noticed a couple of typos. You okay with that?
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    (Original post by Sergeant)
    A) No, she was given the free will to do whatever she wanted, and was warned that the tree would bring pain into the world. She was tempted, and she failed to resist the temptation. It's a metaphor, anyway.

    A metaphor, for the consequences of disobeying the glorious leader, you will be punished and marked for eternity with the blame for all evil.

    B) If you think that cold has power over warmth, then perhaps. Otherwise... No. Evil is what is there when God isn't. It's only inside people's minds, but that's where it wants to be. I say 'wants', that's like talking about electrons 'deciding' - it's an analogy , OK?
    But God is omnipotent isn't he?

    C) No. We have free will to do whatever we want to do. The only reason we (Christians) obey God is because when you love someone, you want to make them happy, right? Well, I do. I don't know about you. The way to make someone happy is to do what they want you to do. If they love you back, what they want you to do will be good for you. That's why the ten commandments are so foolproof. Plus, I'm pretty certain that you're going to drag the idea of Hell into this argument somewhere, so allow me to pre-empt that (It sort of comes under this point). Hell is where you will go if you have chosen that you would rather live your (after)life without God, makes sense? Well, it's an absence of God. Don't say something silly like "But if God existed, i would want to go to heaven" because if you truly wanted to go to heaven, you would believe. (At this point I realise that I am getting tired, and that the quality of my typing will go steadily downhill from here on). If someone loves you, the one thing you can do above all others to signal that you don't want to spend eternity with them is to refuse to acknowledge their existence. God loves everyone, and wants to give them whatever they want. If they want to spend eternity without Him, then He will give it to them. Not out of spite, but because when you love someone, you do your best to give them what they want.

    If the all-knowing, all-powerful creator God knows in advance that if he creates mankind with a free will, then this will cause mankind a lot of unnecessary suffering and death, what does this tell us about the God? Is this a God who wishes the best for his creation?

    A good benign God, one who really cared for his puny creations well-being, one should think would create them in such a way that their existence would be as good as possible. Shouldn’t an omnipotent creator God be able to create a mankind with a happy blissful existence even without this unfortunate free will? One seldom misses what one never has known. Or did God Almighty think that the sadistic joy some find in inflicting suffering for others, is more valuable and precious than the misery and pain of their victims?


    D) I edited the quote of your post because I noticed a couple of typos. You okay with that?
    Im not surprised you had to resort to correcting typos with such a weak argument. A strawman was inevitable.
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    Interesting question. You almost had me just before I realised you flaw. The most common of all flaws; a misinterpretation.

    Sex, homosexuality, procreation and mortality are all products of the original sin that created evil in our world. :fyi: evil is the absence of God (just like darkness and light). Evil wasn't created by God. God gave freewill because he wanted his creation to be perfect (and robots aren't perfect, freedom is). Freewill and the temptation lead to the original sin which led to evil. Homosexuality has no more grounds on this then heterosexuality has.

    That simple!
    Surely God knows all the past, present and future. When he was making Adam, he knew he would be tempted by eve. So why not make a Megan instead? or a Kiera, why, even though he knew, still make eve? Also, he knew adam would be lonely so why wait until later? why not make them both at the same time?

    Thanks for any response
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    The better question is: why did god make homosexual and bisexual humans when he supposedly forbids humanity to engage in such acts?
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    Well for a start, I don't thing God made anything. Secondly, What's the big deal if someone or something is bisexual.
    I do however see what you are getting at.
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    Firstly, where is the evidence that god exists?

    Secondly, assuming god exists, where is the evidence that He has a problem with gay or bisexual people? After all, the religions which are traditionally regarded as being anti-gay/bisexual (such as Christianity, Islam and et cetera) have already been pretty much disproven by science.
 
 
 
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