Youths kill 67yr old man. Sentenced to 4 and 3 years. Will serve half that. Watch

Neo
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#161
Report 8 years ago
#161
(Original post by Ech0)
However, there should be an investigation into exactly why it took so long, in light of the fact that the poor family cannot even pursue a case for common assault as their claim would now be over 6 months and thus out of time.

Also, 1 expert(who is now under investigation himself apparently) vs. 2 experts clearly sways the evidence in the favour of the later, however I do accept that one cannot and should not pursue a potentially unsafe conviction.

Oh well, guess the family can always hire a hit man
Some good news I guess.....however small. Hopefully the b*stard will lose his job.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10777287
0
reply
fosforpheasant
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#162
Report 8 years ago
#162
(Original post by thedaveimperium)
a gun is a dangerous weapon. a slap is considered 'minor' (whatever the hell that means). murder dosen't have to be planned.
Maybe learn the difference between the force of two consecutive powerful punches, and the likely potential damage they may cause to an elderly man standing on concrete pavement and a slap?
0
reply
fist of the south star
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#163
Report 8 years ago
#163
When they say life sentence the only time scum like that should be leaving the prison is in a coffin. I wonder how many more people will get pointleslly slaughtered before the law changes. Maybe when a group of punks push an old lady in front of a train 'for a laugh'?
0
reply
RamsFanNo1
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#164
Report 8 years ago
#164
This is what happens when you live in a country run by morons. Things will only get worse I hate to say!! It is for reasons like this why the death penalty should be introduced and I know there will be a load of do gooders saying the people who did this have rights. No they don't, they lost them when they decided to commit such a awful crime and our country has no time for people like that.
0
reply
Neo
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#165
Report 8 years ago
#165
(Original post by RamsFanNo1)
This is what happens when you live in a country run by morons. Things will only get worse I hate to say!! It is for reasons like this why the death penalty should be introduced and I know there will be a load of do gooders saying the people who did this have rights. No they don't, they lost them when they decided to commit such a awful crime and our country has no time for people like that.
Try reading this whole thread through and then you can start trying to argue for the death penalty ok schmukums?
0
reply
jimmy19
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#166
Report 8 years ago
#166
I've seen the clip... absolute scum of the earth. Aboloshing capital punishment is one of the worst things this country has done.
0
reply
RamsFanNo1
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#167
Report 8 years ago
#167
(Original post by Neo)
Try reading this whole thread through and then you can start trying to argue for the death penalty ok schmukums?
What are you actually on about? I'm guessing you are a do gooder who doesn't agree with capital punishment and believes in serving minimal sentences in what we call jails (more like butlins apartments) just to be let out.Take the baby p case? You think its right for those sick human beings to still be alive and well in this country?!?!?!?!?!?!
0
reply
Neo
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#168
Report 8 years ago
#168
(Original post by RamsFanNo1)
What are you actually on about? I'm guessing you are a do gooder who doesn't agree with capital punishment and believes in serving minimal sentences in what we call jails (more like butlins apartments) just to be let out.Take the baby p case? You think its right for those sick human beings to still be alive and well in this country?!?!?!?!?!?!
How many times have you been in jail? And yes I do think it is right for them to still be alive because I don't believe in the death penalty.
0
reply
machiavelli123
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#169
Report 8 years ago
#169
(Original post by D.R.E)
I never said this case was benign. What I said was, the law will never be able to stop people from fighting with their fists, something which is very common and usually leads to negligible outcomes. The defendants here, did attack the victim, but were both were horribly unlucky for it to end in the way it did. As for the victim's age; that is a good point, but you have to look at the nature of this crime. It is just some kids doing something very stupid, which is what kids do.
You are focusing on the nature of the assault. If they had attacked the man using knifes, would your stance on the matter be different? One could also argue that the law will never be able to stop people from fighting using knives.

You say that kids do stupid things sometimes. This is true. However, people are meant to learn that they should not do such things. People regardless of age do stupid things, it's just something they do. Ignorance cannot be used as a defense in court. Thus ignorance of the consequences of their actions cannot be used as defense.

I fail to see how we can write off their offense as 'just one of the stupid things kids do', along with kicking footballs through windows or carving their names into desks at school.


Since no 2 crimes are the same, would it be fair to give disproportionate punishments to certain offenders just because you want to make a point? This is not how the law works. You are making an emotional judgement, fortunately, the judges we have know better than to do as such.
I am not arguing for disproportionate punishments to make a point. I am arguing for a proportionate sentence that would (if you read my post properly) deter these particular boys from reoffending. I am not making an emotional judgement. Please enlighten me as to exactly where I said: 'OMGGZZZ!!! dey shud b hung!!!!1'

Right. I'm glad you mentioned this. The 2 defendants are both very young and arguably, have ample opportunity to be turned into productive assets to society. This is the reason people under 17 are not sent to prisons. If these kids were sent to prison for 15 years, they would come out of prison having learned how to be better criminals, got more contacts and most importantly, no skills which are useful in the job market. Now do tell, what 'business' sector are they likely to end up in?
I highly doubt a 2 year spell in a young offenders institute is likely to turn these boys into pillars of the community. I would not think it audacious to suggest that there is a high probability that after their short sentence they will still fail to get much further in the job market than they would if they had been behind bars for 15 years. I doubt these boys will gain any valuable skills if not sent to prison. Furthermore, if you look at reoffending rates for those coming out of young offenders institutions, you might find that they are higher than you expect.

You argue that they have the potential to turn their lives around if not sent to prison. I would argue that if they have the mentality that they would like to improve themselves and perhaps gain manual skills/A-levels, they would be just as likely if not more likely to do this inside prison, where it is free and there are numerous resources devoted to an inmate's education.

Sentences for youth crimes are not as simple as just considering the custodial period, usually they are also given extra conditions to fulfil that the press always conveniently neglect to mention.
Conditions that are all too often broken. Venables is a perfect example.

The fact that you are so focused on the deterrent element shows, quite frankly, a profound lack of understanding of how the law works. Judges aren't there to mete out retribution on behalf of the victim and their family. They are there to give a balanced view and hopefully issue a sentence that fits the crime and also allows the criminal, if reformed, to live on as a human being. Unless of course, to you, criminals are just mindless machines that need eradicating from society?
The problem is that the sentence generally does not fit the crime. The situation is this. Prisoners in general are not reformed ater being in prison. It often makes them better at commiting crimes in future. If we solely sentence people in the way that is most likely to reform them, we would be having to hand out corporal punishments.

If someone is caught shoplifting, the most effective way of stopping them carrying out the same crime would be either to cut off their hands or to kill them, not to give them a small fine. I am not arguing for a second that we should start cutting off offenders limbs, but my point is that the sentence is not entirely about stopping them reoffending, or if it is, then it is not carried out in the most effective way.

Criminals are not just 'mindless machines' to me, if you belive that, you do not fully understand my sentiments on the issue.My stance is that I do not believe it is likley that this sentence will dissuade the boys effectvely from reoffending. It is not an emotional judgement, it is looking at the issue in a practical way.

There was so such inference in my words, all I said was the facts; they really did only just punch the victim. How you deemed this an endorsement of criminal behaviour is beyond me.
You would agree I'm sure that you are suggesting that the crime is less serious by the use of 'only' would you not? I'll try to demonstrate the point:

1) I kicked Dave

2) I only kicked Dave

1) is objective. I am stating a fact that I kicked Dave. 2) implies that kicking is not that serious and by doing so becomes at least partly subjective.



This is just an emotional diatribe.

NB: There is a debate to be had here, but you are making it extremely difficult with these emotionally charged posts which don't actually provide any real points. I agree that there are many things wrong with our criminal justice system, but I also think the judge sitting handle this case very well and to the fullest extent that was necessary.
If anyone is guilty of looking at this in an emotional way, it is yourself. By making gross generalisations regarding 'the stupid things kids do', you fail to look at the incident from an objective position. You draw upon your own experiences perhaps rather than looking at the incident in question. I am merely pointing out my opinion that the sentences are unlikely to be effective in preventing the defendants reoffending. Forgive me if this is emotional diatribe.
0
reply
MTR_10
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#170
Report 8 years ago
#170
(Original post by RamsFanNo1)
What are you actually on about? I'm guessing you are a do gooder who doesn't agree with capital punishment and believes in serving minimal sentences in what we call jails (more like butlins apartments) just to be let out.Take the baby p case? You think its right for those sick human beings to still be alive and well in this country?!?!?!?!?!?!
Surely it's better for the future to take a step back from all of this and ask ourselves why somebody would randomly assault an old guy in the street in front of his 3 year old daughter? That person must be seriously screwed up. So let's just kill him??!! What does that solve? How does that prevent this happening in the future? We have to find out why and how somebody can do that. Find out what the problem with this 'culture' is and resolve that, not just kill them for their crime because that cycle will just continue.

It's time like this that I really feel ashamed of this country and how something like this can happen.

I read an article about this in the Evening Standard last night. Was so shocked. Feel sorry for his grandaughter having to witness that.
0
reply
The1truebelieber
Badges: 0
#171
Report 8 years ago
#171
(Original post by Jingers)
Whilst you need intent for GBH, it's that it can lead to death, so the death of the victim is always in your mind.

Read the links.



No, so long as you have the gbh intent it's all you need. Also, I don't need to read the links.

I think you should read up on R V. Vickers.:rolleyes:
reply
Ministerdonut
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#172
Report 8 years ago
#172
Their skin colour means nothing to me, as their colour was mentioned in this thread,I can only see this country getting worse, as the powers that be refuse point blank to not only protect the public but punish properly.I have been hearing today from a just retired probation officer, who thinks the coaltions wish to focus more on rehabilitation is a joke.,This coming from a probation officer and a lefty. He is massively disillusioned with what is going on in the justice system.

Both of them should be sent down for twenty years. They may not have intended to kill him,which is why Iam talking about a prison sentence. If they had intended they should be hung.They took a life by using violence ,intended or not These two cockroaches have destroyed a family, and now we the mug public have to watch them get a pathetic sentence and leave shortly to commit more crime. I think people will start taking the law into their own hands.I don't care how much the leftys wring their hands, if the state was taking care of these people there would be no need.

And yes if it was a member of my family,if it had been my Grandfather, The Police would have found them in bits, I'd have paid someone and sent the Police the mobile phone footage, with deliberate irony. because to me, that is no punishment.
0
reply
Ministerdonut
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#173
Report 8 years ago
#173
(Original post by MTR_10)
Surely it's better for the future to take a step back from all of this and ask ourselves why somebody would randomly assault an old guy in the street in front of his 3 year old daughter? That person must be seriously screwed up. So let's just kill him??!! What does that solve? How does that prevent this happening in the future? We have to find out why and how somebody can do that. Find out what the problem with this 'culture' is and resolve that, not just kill them for their crime because that cycle will just continue.

It's time like this that I really feel ashamed of this country and how something like this can happen.

I read an article about this in the Evening Standard last night. Was so shocked. Feel sorry for his grandaughter having to witness that.
These people are subhuman. Hugs and a cup of tea would be a waste of your time. You are going to get a small minority of people that should be exterminated . These are two.

And what do you mean ,by trying to find out the problem with this 'culture'? I'll tell you the problem, being poor is no excuse,mentally ill? neither of these two were mentally ill,this was a planned assault , , what these people are, are scum, societys offal, and are just here to cause mayhem.

Rather than waste time understanding such people,wouldn't it be better to protect the public ? It may not seem like it,but they are a small minority who cannot function in this society.
0
reply
MTR_10
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#174
Report 8 years ago
#174
(Original post by Ministerdonut)
These people are subhuman. Hugs and a cup of tea would be a waste of your time. You are going to get a small minority of people that should be exterminated . These are two.

And what do you mean ,by trying to find out the problem with this 'culture'? I'll tell you the problem, being poor is no excuse,mentally ill? neither of these two were mentally ill,this was a planned assault , , what these people are, are scum, societys offal, and are just here to cause mayhem.

Rather than waste time understanding such people,wouldn't it be better to protect the public ? It may not seem like it,but they are a small minority who cannot function in this society.
Nobody is 'subhuman'. The only solution to this problem is to find out what caused this instead of just writing them off as scum or 'subhuman'. Look into their lives and backgrounds. What culture have they lived in? Brought up in? Why do some people turn out like this? This is not to suggest that I am sympathising with them in anyway, but a long term solution would be to solve the root of the problem no? Without getting too political about all of this, something must change in UK society and culture.

There is an underlying problem that means people can get together, attack helpless people, film it and then laugh whilst watching it. That problem must be addressed. To punish those who commit the crimes (which are only end product of the problem) is not the solution. The problem lies in the way those people view other human beings. Why is that? What is it only in British culture (this type of thing rarely happens elsewhere in Europe) that this happens?

So you are saying that it is their destiny to cause mayhem. They were born to kill somebody were they? No, they were born normal just as everyone else is. Something changed these people into what they are today and until we find out what that is, the cycle will continue.

Surely to understand the problem is to protect the public?
0
reply
Ministerdonut
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#175
Report 8 years ago
#175
(Original post by MTR_10)
Nobody is 'subhuman'. The only solution to this problem is to find out what caused this instead of just writing them off as scum or 'subhuman'. Look into their lives and backgrounds. What culture have they lived in? Brought up in? Why do some people turn out like this? This is not to suggest that I am sympathising with them in anyway, but a long term solution would be to solve the root of the problem no? Without getting too political about all of this, something must change in UK society and culture.

There is an underlying problem that means people can get together, attack helpless people, film it and then laugh whilst watching it. That problem must be addressed. To punish those who commit the crimes (which are only end product of the problem) is not the solution. The problem lies in the way those people view other human beings. Why is that? What is it only in British culture (this type of thing rarely happens elsewhere in Europe) that this happens?

So you are saying that it is their destiny to cause mayhem. They were born to kill somebody were they? No, they were born normal just as everyone else is. Something changed these people into what they are today and until we find out what that is, the cycle will continue.

Surely to understand the problem is to protect the public?
There is a minority who are born with a few brain cells missing like it or not .

And unfortunately 'understanding the problem', often means little justice for the victim and their family and also tends to mean putting the public at risk, because the people doing the understanding develop attachment and sympathy to the subhuman class.

So you are saying until we 'understand the problem ' this will continue? .Wrong.What if you never 'understand the problem' ,what if you dislike the answer you get? While all this understanding is going on,people are being killed.

No there is a far more simple way to deal with a small number of people.You either lock them away indefinately if you can't stomach hanging or shooting them, or you kill them. The only understanding that should happen ,is allowing scientists to study their brains after death.
0
reply
Advanced Subsidiary
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#176
Report 8 years ago
#176
They should be put in prison and shouldn't be fed - That'll keep the costs down. It will at least send a warning to people in this country, that you should only kill someone if you're happy to die yourself. I'm sure nobody wants that.
0
reply
MTR_10
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#177
Report 8 years ago
#177
(Original post by Ministerdonut)
There is a minority who are born with a few brain cells missing like it or not .

And unfortunately 'understanding the problem', often means little justice for the victim and their family and also tends to mean putting the public at risk, because the people doing the understanding develop attachment and sympathy to the subhuman class.

So you are saying until we 'understand the problem ' this will continue? .Wrong.What if you never 'understand the problem' ,what if you dislike the answer you get? While all this understanding is going on,people are being killed.

No there is a far more simple way to deal with a small number of people.You either lock them away indefinitely if you can't stomach hanging or shooting them, or you kill them. The only understanding that should happen ,is allowing scientists to study their brains after death.
Scientific proof?

Look, my point is that there is clearly something which is wrong with our society which means this type of thing happens. Shouldn't we try to find out what that is for the long term benefit (and safety) of everyone in the UK?

To label somebody 'subhuman' is a dangerous thing to do. Perhaps it is that ignorance (which expresses itself through other avenues of life) that is doing the harm. Rejecting people early in life. Neglecting people. Society unable to support the amount of people within it. The sad fact remains that these people somewhere along the line have been influenced or otherwise treated in a way to make them into this. I believe for what it is worth that we live in a society which can no longer support itself, hence the race to the top so to speak. People showing aggression through quite different channels, everyone of us 'competing'. The result here is that there is always people who lose out. Isn't it about time to pause and reflect on what our society/ culture is and the effect it is having.

and yes I do believe it is possible to work with offenders without becoming attached to them. If you don't then you create a dangerous distance between the 'classes'. Surely in a modern world, there should be no class system?

Justice is not about killing somebody as a punishment for a crime. Why use Brutality to punish crimes and what does it gain? Surely this case should be looked at as a symbol of the culture we live in, not as an argument for punishment. Punishment by its very nature is at the end of the chain, shouldn't we be looking further up the chain to find the root? The culture which enables this type of thing to happen is one which cannot support itself. People are excluded in this race to the top. That neglects people, pushes them to the edge of society and this case, like many previously is just the end result. This is why we really need to look at our society and ask ourselves some key questions. For example, can we support the lifestyle of everyone in this country equally? Are certain people excluded? Is there more to life than making a lot of money and getting ahead of somebody? I see a massive class division in London in particular. Why? Is it necessary to have this division? Or do we need to prioritise what our country is?

Ultimately this country/ government needs to ask itself if the country can carry on the way it is or if something needs to change so that everyone is giving an equal opportunity in life. That's not to say these people didn't but there is clearly something wrong with how these people have been raised and the type of culture they have grown up in.

There is nothing wrong with their brains. You are looking for a scientific answer to a cultural problem.
0
reply
MTR_10
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#178
Report 8 years ago
#178
(Original post by Advanced Subsidiary)
They should be put in prison and shouldn't be fed - That'll keep the costs down. It will at least send a warning to people in this country, that you should only kill someone if you're happy to die yourself. I'm sure nobody wants that.
Brutality to punish brutality.... and what exactly does that solve?
0
reply
Jingers
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#179
Report 8 years ago
#179
(Original post by HDS)
No, so long as you have the gbh intent it's all you need. Also, I don't need to read the links.

I think you should read up on R V. Vickers.:rolleyes:
cool
0
reply
Iron Mike
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#180
Report 8 years ago
#180
(Original post by MTR_10)
Brutality to punish brutality.... and what exactly does that solve?
Crime?
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Brexit: Given the chance now, would you vote leave or remain?

Remain (1463)
79.6%
Leave (375)
20.4%

Watched Threads

View All