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    (Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
    Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was killed before William the Conqueror took over England, before the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales even began. I hardly think his forays into the Earldom of Mercia would have been much on the minds of the Norman Aristocracy of England when he wasn't even alive at the time.
    If not being alive at the time of these grievances is important, then the Welsh should be quiet about them.


    There isn't a single Welsh monoglot in the whole of Wales. Some can speak Welsh better than they can English, but everyone can speak English. Again, get your facts right before posting; it'd save us a lot of trouble. Welsh is an additional skill, one that is very valuable if you're searching for work in Wales.
    I know that, that's what I'm saying. Nobody only speaks Welsh, so if you're an English speaker you can communicate with everybody.


    Polls of those in Wales have had support for independence hovering at 10-15%, significantly less than in Scotland, and significantly less than the proportion of those in NI who favour reunification. Besides, I'm not sure what we have to be grateful for. Wales is one of the poorest regions in the UK, it doesn't have a single mile of electrified track in the whole country (and shares that honour with only Albania and Moldova in Europe), and has had its industry decimated at the hands of an unfriendly Westminster government. Thanks very much.
    The industry was hardly dismantled, the UK government just found that it was to the detriment of the UK to continue to subsidise the industry any longer. If it was an industry that was contributing anything rather than leeching, as is the way in Wales, then the industries would have continued just fine.

    Come search for work in Wales. See the number of employers who would prefer someone with the ability to speak Welsh. Tell me again its pointless.
    That sums up the problem for me. Someone not speaking Welsh finds it more difficult to find employment in Wales - if the Welsh language wasn't taught in schools then it would become almost extinct, and a lot more people would be able to find work.

    Already told you in my previous post that Wales will be hit harder than any other devolved nation in the UK.
    And I asked for evidence.
    You also seem to be confusing "Wales" with "Plaid Cymru" here, and even then, you're wrong, because it wasn't on the condition that Wales would escape the cuts. It was on the condition that the Barnett Formula be changed from an arbitrary instrument that doles out money on the basis of population to one that doles out money based on need. Wales would, for instance, get £300m more per year were it analysed by the treasury as a region of England.
    So it was to get Wales proportionately more money than England...right. And Plaid Cymru are hardly a fringe organisation are they?

    Please reply again. I'm finding your overtly racist ramblings quite amusing.
    It's not racism, it's ethnic criticism.
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    And Plaid Cymru are hardly a fringe organisation are they?
    No, but they don't represent the views of the majority of Welsh people either. And just because someone supports plaid, does not mean they want indepedance.

    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    The industry was hardly dismantled, the UK government just found that it was to the detriment of the UK to continue to subsidise the industry any longer. If it was an industry that was contributing anything rather than leeching, as is the way in Wales, then the industries would have continued just fine.
    Not true at all. Its true that the coal industry in general wasn't efficient and needed to be subsidised, however certain collieries were certainly profitable when they were shut down. You just need to look at Tower Colliery to see that.
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    (Original post by Dusty12)
    What a disgusting attitude to minority languages you have.
    I have a progressive attitude. I see languages as a way of communicating, the more languages there are, the less this is possible, or at least, the more difficult it is. Languages like Welsh, where almost everyone who speaks them also speaks another, more widespread language, should be phased out as far as I'm concerned. They certainly shouldn't have UK taxpayers money wasted on them.

    I can say with some confidence that the majority don't want Welsh independence. And if the Welsh aren't too grateful to the English, it's not difficult to think of reasons why. e.g. Tryweryn.

    Your posts have a rather unpleasant racist slant to them that I don't like, I'm sorry to say.
    It's not racist, I just think Wales should be independent and stop leeching off England, and I don't like a lot of the backwards policies of the Welsh government.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    No, but they don't represent the views of the majority of Welsh people either. And just because someone supports plaid, does not mean they want indepedance.
    They probably shouldn't support a party who want independence for Wales then.

    Not true at all. Its true that the coal industry in general wasn't efficient and needed to be subsidised, however certain collieries were certainly profitable when they were shut down. You just need to look at Tower Colliery to see that.
    Yup, and Tower Colliery continued on for years because it made economic sense. Most of them were a waste of money though.
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    I have a progressive attitude. I see languages as a way of communicating, the more languages there are, the less this is possible, or at least, the more difficult it is. Languages like Welsh, where almost everyone who speaks them also speaks another, more widespread language, should be phased out as far as I'm concerned. They certainly shouldn't have UK taxpayers money wasted on them.
    Hmm, well I certainly don't agree. But I suppose you're entitled to your own opinion on that,


    It's not racist, I just think Wales should be independent and stop leeching off England, and I don't like a lot of the backwards policies of the Welsh government.
    Some of what you've said seems pretty racist to me. Backwards? At least our government doesn't want us to pay £9000 a year for uni.:rolleyes:

    It's not racism, it's ethnic criticism.
    :erm:
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    They probably shouldn't support a party who want independence for Wales then.
    Right. Because someone can only vote for a party if they agree with every one of their policies? In any case, people voting Plaid because they want the best for wales have nothing to fear about the parties support for indepedance because it simply won't happen.

    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    Yup, and Tower Colliery continued on for years because it made economic sense. Most of them were a waste of money though.
    So you have to ask how many other profit making collieries were shut down because the miners didn't fight the closures. Don't even try to argue against this point. Tower was saved because of the miners determination. Not because it made money.

    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    I don't like a lot of the backwards policies of the Welsh government.
    Because caring about education, the NHS and other public services is so backwards :rolleyes:

    I also strongly disagree with the other stuff you have said. You think Wales should be cut off from the UK because we use UK taxpayers money? What about the rest of the UK that take more government spending that what they pay. Do you want England to just be the greater london area?
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    (Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
    Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was killed before William the Conqueror took over England, before the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales even began. I hardly think his forays into the Earldom of Mercia would have been much on the minds of the Norman Aristocracy of England when he wasn't even alive at the time.


    There isn't a single Welsh monoglot in the whole of Wales. Some can speak Welsh better than they can English, but everyone can speak English. Again, get your facts right before posting; it'd save us a lot of trouble. Welsh is an additional skill, one that is very valuable if you're searching for work in Wales.


    Polls of those in Wales have had support for independence hovering at 10-15%, significantly less than in Scotland, and significantly less than the proportion of those in NI who favour reunification. Besides, I'm not sure what we have to be grateful for. Wales is one of the poorest regions in the UK, it doesn't have a single mile of electrified track in the whole country (and shares that honour with only Albania and Moldova in Europe), and has had its industry decimated at the hands of an unfriendly Westminster government. Thanks very much.


    Come search for work in Wales. See the number of employers who would prefer someone with the ability to speak Welsh. Tell me again its pointless.


    Already told you in my previous post that Wales will be hit harder than any other devolved nation in the UK.

    You also seem to be confusing "Wales" with "Plaid Cymru" here, and even then, you're wrong, because it wasn't on the condition that Wales would escape the cuts. It was on the condition that the Barnett Formula be changed from an arbitrary instrument that doles out money on the basis of population to one that doles out money based on need. Wales would, for instance, get £300m more per year were it analysed by the treasury as a region of England.

    Please reply again. I'm finding your overtly racist ramblings quite amusing.
    Wrong. Moldova has electricity train tracks. Iceland, Ireland, Scotland and Albania have no electric tracks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eu...ication_en.svg
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    (Original post by Dusty12)
    Hmm, well I certainly don't agree. But I suppose you're entitled to your own opinion on that,
    I dream of a world where any man can speak to any other man without a phrase book. Where I can travel to China or to Mexico or to Scotland and speak with them and understand what they are saying without a phrase book or an interpreter. I've got a lot of Irish family, and I'd support that language being phased out as well. It's just wasteful.

    Some of what you've said seems pretty racist to me. Backwards? At least our government doesn't want us to pay £9000 a year for uni.:rolleyes:
    I don't disagree with all of the Welsh Government's policies, and I don't agree with all the British ones. I just resent the UK treasury's money being wasted on teaching everyone a secondary language which perpetuates the problem of poor communication, and the fitting of signs in two languages all over the place, when everyone could understand it if it was just written in English. It's preposterous, but it seems to be a mainstay of Welsh Politics.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    Right. Because someone can only vote for a party if they agree with every one of their policies? In any case, people voting Plaid because they want the best for wales have nothing to fear about the parties support for indepedance because it simply won't happen.
    If I voted for the British National Party I think it's pretty safe to say that I support British Nationalism.

    So you have to ask how many other profit making collieries were shut down because the miners didn't fight the closures. Don't even try to argue against this point. Tower was saved because of the miners determination. Not because it made money.
    Probably quite a few, the majority were obviously loss making though, or the move wouldn't have been made. The Tower Colliery was the exception rather than the rule.

    Because caring about education, the NHS and other public services is so backwards :rolleyes:
    Nope. Not what I'm saying at all.
    I also strongly disagree with the other stuff you have said. You think Wales should be cut off from the UK because we use UK taxpayers money? What about the rest of the UK that take more government spending that what they pay. Do you want England to just be the greater london area?
    I am always hearing how Wales is a separate country, a separate nation, I don't understand why England should continue to subsidise them. Can you explain it to me without reducing it to 'kick everyone out' ?
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    If I voted for the British National Party I think it's pretty safe to say that I support British Nationalism.
    1 - you seriously cannot compare Plaid to the BNP. Totally differnent aims, policies and beliefs.

    2 - I can be a Welsh nationalist (which I am), without wanting independance.

    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    I am always hearing how Wales is a separate country, a separate nation, I don't understand why England should continue to subsidise them. Can you explain it to me without reducing it to 'kick everyone out' ?
    You aren't answering my question. The general idea of taxes is to raise money for the government to spend on public services. The nature of the world we live in is that there will be poor areas, and there will be rich areas. Thus it is obvious that there will be areas that use more money in terms of public services than what they pay in tax, and visa versa. That is the society we live in. I'm assuming you would prefer to scrap all public services and make the individual pay? After all, why should a healthy person subsidise someone who gets ill all the time or is disabled. While the UK is a distinct nation, we are all part of one country (the UK). Thus money raised through taxes in all of the uk is distrubuted around the entire country.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    1 - you seriously cannot compare Plaid to the BNP. Totally differnent aims, policies and beliefs.

    2 - I can be a Welsh nationalist (which I am), without wanting independance.
    So what do you want, as a Welsh nationalist?

    You aren't answering my question. The general idea of taxes is to raise money for the government to spend on public services. The nature of the world we live in is that there will be poor areas, and there will be rich areas. Thus it is obvious that there will be areas that use more money in terms of public services than what they pay in tax, and visa versa. That is the society we live in. I'm assuming you would prefer to scrap all public services and make the individual pay? After all, why should a healthy person subsidise someone who gets ill all the time or is disabled. While the UK is a distinct nation, we are all part of one country (the UK). Thus money raised through taxes in all of the uk is distrubuted around the entire country.
    You're making leaps of logic here. I agree with public services, but within our own nation. I don't feel any connection with the Welsh people, I don't particularly care about Wales any more than any other nation, so I don't want any of my tax money going to that nation.

    If Wales are as you describe, a country which is akin to a sick, diseased person, then it should receive aid worldwide, like third world countries, it shouldn't be down to England to do it all. Wales doesn't deserve England's money.
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    So what do you want, as a Welsh nationalist?

    If Wales are as you describe, a country which is akin to a sick, diseased person, then it should receive aid worldwide, like third world countries, it shouldn't be down to England to do it all. Wales doesn't deserve England's money.
    I want the best for Wales. Independance does not fall under that. One thing it does include however is fairer funding from westminster. As has been said Wales is underfunded to the tune of £300 million.

    I'm not specifically saying Wales is sick or whatever, I'm just saying that we live in a society where tax is spread out on public services and the like no matter of who pays it. It doesn't matter if a specific area pays less tax than another area, they get the same funding because that is how our society works. As I said before, why are you splitting it between England and Wales? Why not say the north of england doesn't deserve Londons money?
    Wales isn't getting Englands money. Its getting money from the UK btw.
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    So what do you want, as a Welsh nationalist?



    You're making leaps of logic here. I agree with public services, but within our own nation. I don't feel any connection with the Welsh people, I don't particularly care about Wales any more than any other nation, so I don't want any of my tax money going to that nation.

    If Wales are as you describe, a country which is akin to a sick, diseased person, then it should receive aid worldwide, like third world countries, it shouldn't be down to England to do it all. Wales doesn't deserve England's money.
    So you don't class England and Scotland as countries?
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    I want the best for Wales. Independance does not fall under that. One thing it does include however is fairer funding from westminster. As has been said Wales is underfunded to the tune of £300 million.
    If England was leeching off Wales I think you would want independence for Wales. I get the impression that the Welsh don't really like the English, would you say that's accurate?
    I'm not specifically saying Wales is sick or whatever, I'm just saying that we live in a society where tax is spread out on public services and the like no matter of who pays it. It doesn't matter if a specific area pays less tax than another area, they get the same funding because that is how our society works. As I said before, why are you splitting it between England and Wales? Why not say the north of england doesn't deserve Londons money?
    Wales isn't getting Englands money. Its getting money from the UK btw.
    Will you stop talking about the north of England? There's no movement to make the north of England independent, it's irrelevant to the discussion. The north of England is part of the same nation as the south east. I'm splitting it between England and Wales because they're different nations.


    (Original post by Lewis :D)
    So you don't class England and Scotland as countries?
    Not really, country is a term which applies more to sovereign states rather than nations within a state.
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    I'm so very glad wales have an assembly.

    If wales can afford this on a limited budget why can't england?
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    If England was leeching off Wales I think you would want independence for Wales. I get the impression that the Welsh don't really like the English, would you say that's accurate?
    No I don't think thats accurate at all.
    A lot of it is just friendly banter.
    Hell, my girlfriend is English and I go to uni in England. You think that would be the case if I didn't like the English?

    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    Will you stop talking about the north of England? There's no movement to make the north of England independent, it's irrelevant to the discussion. The north of England is part of the same nation as the south east. I'm splitting it between England and Wales because they're different nations.
    But the movement for Wales to become independent is so small its essentially irrelevant. Wales is part of the same country as England. Its called the UK.
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    (Original post by Bulletproof!)
    I dream of a world where any man can speak to any other man without a phrase book. Where I can travel to China or to Mexico or to Scotland and speak with them and understand what they are saying without a phrase book or an interpreter. I've got a lot of Irish family, and I'd support that language being phased out as well. It's just wasteful.

    I don't disagree with all of the Welsh Government's policies, and I don't agree with all the British ones. I just resent the UK treasury's money being wasted on teaching everyone a secondary language which perpetuates the problem of poor communication, and the fitting of signs in two languages all over the place, when everyone could understand it if it was just written in English. It's preposterous, but it seems to be a mainstay of Welsh Politics.
    Have you ever been to Wales? Perpetuates the problem of poor communication? What? Welsh people, even if they go to a Welsh school, have to learn English. I don't know of a single Welsh person who has trouble communicating in English; I know a handful of first-language Gaelic speakers too, and they have no trouble communicating in English. The fact that you want to wipe out a specific part of a country's heritage, specifically linguistic heritage, just makes you seem ignorant.

    It's views like this that drive languages to near-extinction. In the last 150 years, the number of first-language Occitan speakers in the south of France has dropped by 75%. Why? Because of ignorant policies like this, about how it's pointless to speak another language when the national language is French and the people of Occitania live under the control of the French government.
    If you want an example closer to home, Cornish was extinct before people started paying attention to it. Why? It died out because nobody enforced it as a first or second language; only in the last hundred years has a reconstructed Cornish been taught.

    You let a language die out, you let a culture die with it...



    ANYWAY, that's just a side note in all of this. Back to the economics at hand!

    Only around £13million is spent on the Welsh language annually. That's small fry. In terms of tuition fees, the subsidising that will occur in order to live up to these plans will cost the Welsh a lot more than £13million a year, I'd wager.
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    Bulletproof - I can say one thing to shut you up instantly.

    You are mocking the Welsh language and how everyone should speak English, yet your country is getting taken over by Muslims and English in some areas is being phased out.

    At least we stand up for our language, a pride of Wales. More than I can say for some English people.

    Also, if we all spoke the same language the world would be extremely boring. Its just your pure ignorance and laziness that means you cannot be bothered to learn a language. Either that or you are too dumb.

    Now, as you are blaming Wales for a lot of things and hardly contributing and being a leech as you put in on the rest of the UK.

    Why is it then that out of £25bn each year in tax avoidance, roughly 87% of it is caused by businesses from England and English people ? Why?

    Thats around £20bn ripped out of the system every year illegally by the English. Thanks for contributing to the United Kingdom's parliament - which the Welsh are part of for your information.

    ITS NOT ENGLANDS MONEY - ITS THE UK'S MONEY - GET THAT FACT INTO YOUR HEAD !!

    NOT 1 OF THE 4 MEMBERS OF THE UK PARLIAMENT WOULD COPE WITHOUT EACH OTHER - PROVEN BY PANORAMA YEARS AGO. THEY WOULD HAVE STUDIED IN DEPTH A LOT MORE THAN YOU.

    Also the Welsh government has based a lot of its parties on the 3 in power. The actual fact is they base their decisions on each issue rather than going with the strict policies of a party. We have a mind and can make our own minds up.

    I find it funny that someone from a country that has been destroyed by Scottish PM's has the cheek to disrespect the Welsh.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    Bulletproof - I can say one thing to shut you up instantly.

    You are mocking the Welsh language and how everyone should speak English, yet your country is getting taken over by Muslims and English in some areas is being phased out.

    At least we stand up for our language, a pride of Wales. More than I can say for some English people.

    Also, if we all spoke the same language the world would be extremely boring. Its just your pure ignorance and laziness that means you cannot be bothered to learn a language. Either that or you are too dumb.

    Now, as you are blaming Wales for a lot of things and hardly contributing and being a leech as you put in on the rest of the UK.

    Why is it then that out of £25bn each year in tax avoidance, roughly 87% of it is caused by businesses from England and English people ? Why?

    Thats around £20bn ripped out of the system every year illegally by the English. Thanks for contributing to the United Kingdom's parliament - which the Welsh are part of for your information.

    ITS NOT ENGLANDS MONEY - ITS THE UK'S MONEY - GET THAT FACT INTO YOUR HEAD !!

    NOT 1 OF THE 4 MEMBERS OF THE UK PARLIAMENT WOULD COPE WITHOUT EACH OTHER - PROVEN BY PANORAMA YEARS AGO. THEY WOULD HAVE STUDIED IN DEPTH A LOT MORE THAN YOU.

    Also the Welsh government has based a lot of its parties on the 3 in power. The actual fact is they base their decisions on each issue rather than going with the strict policies of a party. We have a mind and can make our own minds up.

    I find it funny that someone from a country that has been destroyed by Scottish PM's has the cheek to disrespect the Welsh.
    Well flipping said
    The English people on here are an embarrassment. What good is bashing Welsh students and their culture going to do? Make us look like a load of fools. Of course it isn't exactly fair but at the end of the day, arguing is not going to make a difference. I hate the ignorance regarding the Welsh. It's disgusting really.
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    (Original post by chlobofro)
    Well flipping said
    The English people on here are an embarrassment. What good is bashing Welsh students and their culture going to do? Make us look like a load of fools. Of course it isn't exactly fair but at the end of the day, arguing is not going to make a difference. I hate the ignorance regarding the Welsh. It's disgusting really.
    It annoys me even more that I have actually been protesting on behalf of the English and then they have attitudes like that.

    At least there are English people like you who have common sense.

    I doubt any of those moaning on here have been to a protest. They just come on here with non-intellectual nonsense about the UK's parliament.

    We are all equal, we are all part of the UK and we all deserve the same treatment. That's why, even with the ignorance the small number of English people have displayed in this thread I will still go to the next protest and fight for future English students.

    All you anti Welsh people really want to get your head sorted out. You're all moaning like the little baby that has spat its dummy out. I seriously recommend you think about what you say and gain some maturity.
 
 
 
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