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    (Original post by jb9191)
    I hope one day you do not need a serious operation because If I was a surgeon and you turned around and told me "students were inept idiotic sheep full of idealistic bull****" then I'd not help you in any way whatsoever.
    I don't think "Illiterate" is a valid criterion for the title "Surgeon" as you must take the hippocratic oath.
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    (Original post by Slab'o'Butter)
    I don't think "Illiterate" is a valid criterion for the title "Surgeon" as you must take the hippocratic oath.
    Oh no you are without a doubt the worst person ever.

    You are trying to avoid the idiotic statements you made.

    Look how many top jobs require a degree - all obtained by people who were once students.

    What is your main gripe with students anyway?

    What are you doing so wonderful for the British economy that allows you to make such absurd generalisations ?
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    (Original post by jb9191)

    What are you doing so wonderful for the British economy that allows you to make such absurd generalisations ?
    I work whilst you clowns make an "acedemia" out of tasks that were once in-house training and quite plainly common sense.

    Oh no you are without a doubt the worst person ever.

    You are trying to avoid the idiotic statements you made.
    Okay.

    Look how many top jobs require a degree - all obtained by people who were once students.
    Like Alan Sugar etc? If you want to be a little lapdog and ***** all your life, continue on your path.
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    (Original post by D.R.E)
    And what do McDonald's do?
    Perhaps googling this one would've been quicker for you

    http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/people/jo...the-team.shtml
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    (Original post by Slab'o'Butter)
    I work whilst you clowns make an "acedemia" out of tasks that were once in-house training and quite plainly common sense.

    I work too and probably will have to whilst in university. Yes because web design, programming, becoming a surgeon, engineering, architecture etc. is all common sense. That's why in the UK we have the best universities in the world and the best graduates coming from those institutions that are highly valued internationally. Yes, nice.

    I bet you're in a pretty poor job and just are moaning about your own epic fail of life.

    Okay.



    Like Alan Sugar etc? If you want to be a little lapdog and ***** all your life, continue on your path.
    I even admitted that some become wealthy without qualifications. The fact is, people with degrees on average do better than those without. Its been proven many times that graduates are far more likely to get employed and stay in work.

    Also Alan Sugar sent his own son to university who dropped out.

    As such, he joins four of the five richest Americans who didn't complete their degrees: Microsoft's Bill Gates, casino king Sheldon Adelson, Oracle's Larry Ellison and Paul Allen, also of Microsoft. In Britain, he is on a par with the 19 of our self-made billionaires who did not go to university. They include Sir Philip Green, Sir Richard Branson, Bernie Ecclestone, Joe Lewis and Charles Dunstone. Another entrepreneur, Sir Alan Sugar, also didn't go near the place.

    The fact is those underlined went on to university and found their own paths in life but they still went in the first place - A lot of the others did not.

    However Bill Gates would have definitely learned skills on his university course that he applied to go his own way and dropped out to put those ideas into practice, just as Zuckerberg did.

    Also, the majority of those on the Forbes Rich List are graduates - yes they attended Harvard, Stanford and so on but the fact is they are still graduates.

    I find your whole view of students pathetic to be honest.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    The statistics prove that graduates on average earn a lot more over their lifetime than someone with a university level qualification. Yes, you do get those without qualifications going on to be very wealthy but the majority do not.

    http://www.myfinances.co.uk/cut-your-bills/news/degrees-boost-earnings-by-160-061-$465323.htm
    Errrrr no, it proves that was the case for a historical sample, it say nothing about the earning premium of students today.

    Here is a more recent statistic to yours (two years later):
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...k-1835911.html

    Here is the same info from a statistic before your link (4 years before)@
    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/w...duates-and-the

    How can you be sure todays graduates or graduates under a new system to be voted on tomorrow will be any better off?
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    Average graduate salary is £25,000.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8504999.stm
    Man you're a sucker for statistics.

    How do ARG members give a representative sample of employers to assess the pay of graduates?

    Almost be definition it doesn't take into account jobs taken by graduates which aren't 'graduate roles'. I hear thats the case with some graduates.

    Then there are graduate roles in companies which don't see the value in paying £360/year (£180 for a company under 250 employees), typically companies like these won't be paying their graduates as high.

    The HSEA survey of graduate destinations found that of those in full time employment salary was £19,677 (2008), you could claim thats now up (unlikely) but it might now be £20k. Then lower it for part time workers, you're well away from a £25k figure for grads overall.
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    (Original post by Doubledog)
    "The three universities most-often targeted by Britain’s top graduate employers in 2009-
    2010 are Manchester, London (including Imperial College, University College and
    the London School of Economics) and Warwick.
    • Three-quarters of employers said they had received more completed graduate job
    applications during the early part of the recruitment season than they had last year.
    More than two-fifths of applicants were recent graduates who had failed to find work
    after leaving university in 2009 or before.
    • Additional research with 1,001 final year university students shows that job hunters
    are even more pessimistic this year about their career prospects than finalists were
    in 2009
    "
    http://www.ljmu.ac.uk/WoW/WOW_Docs/GM10Report.pdf

    edit; also : "Half of finalists believe they’ll have to take any job that they’re offered, a quarter
    say they’ve been forced to apply to employers that they aren’t really interested in
    and many expect to begin work on a lower salary than they were hoping for."
    So you dont have a source to answer #153...?

    Trying to answer another question doesn't wash.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    So you dont have a source to answer #153...?

    Trying to answer another question doesn't wash.
    The increasing uselessness of many degrees for the purpose of getting a better salary has been featured in the national press for years.
    "The expansion of university education has reduced the value of some degrees to zero, as more young people join the workforce as graduates, research suggests. Recent male graduates in arts and humanities are earning no more than those who left education after A levels, a study from the Institute of Education has found."
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle2403006.ece
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    (Original post by Doubledog)
    The increasing uselessness of many degrees for the purpose of getting a better salary has been featured in the national press for years.
    "The expansion of university education has reduced the value of some degrees to zero, as more young people join the workforce as graduates, research suggests. Recent male graduates in arts and humanities are earning no more than those who left education after A levels, a study from the Institute of Education has found."
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle2403006.ece
    Somehow you've managed to use the same source from 2007 as JB9191 to try and show something different

    That source DOESN'T show the gap has dropped, it just shows the gap is £160k.

    That source CERTAINLY DOESN'T show graduate earnings have fallen, the only information that can be implied is that the gap has narrowed between grad and non-grad earnings (although this is a leap of faith without any supporting evidence), that in no way means graduate earnings have fallen which is what you were saying has happened.
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    OK, here's another one :
    "A report by Kent University published last week found that one third of graduates from the class of 2003 earn no extra money as a result of their qualification."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...on-922410.html

    "Out of 1.4million graduates who started university in 1998 or later, 702,000 are earning too little to pay back their loans - 49 per cent.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz17Yd6P4DF
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      (Original post by Quady)
      Man you're a sucker for statistics.

      How do ARG members give a representative sample of employers to assess the pay of graduates?

      Almost be definition it doesn't take into account jobs taken by graduates which aren't 'graduate roles'. I hear thats the case with some graduates.

      Then there are graduate roles in companies which don't see the value in paying £360/year (£180 for a company under 250 employees), typically companies like these won't be paying their graduates as high.

      The HSEA survey of graduate destinations found that of those in full time employment salary was £19,677 (2008), you could claim thats now up (unlikely) but it might now be £20k. Then lower it for part time workers, you're well away from a £25k figure for grads overall.
      You're right, Quady to dissect the statistics which are notoriously unreliable (because they don't take into account all the differing variables) and out-of-date, none being compiled since 2007.

      What we do know is that the average lifetime higher incomes figures given by governments to justify charging relentlessly increasing fees to students do not take account of the cost of the degree or the student loan.

      So when David Willets quotes a figure of £100,000, not only is it out-of-date and discounting the effects of the recession, but also you need to deduct as much as £25,000 (shortly anticipated to rise to £40,000) from it.
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      (Original post by Doubledog)
      OK, here's another one :
      "A report by Kent University published last week found that one third of graduates from the class of 2003 earn no extra money as a result of their qualification."
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...on-922410.html

      How can they come to that as they wouldn't know what they would have earned had they not gone to university. Its impossible to judge a class when a lot of factors, not just a degree, come into play. There are more things than a degree that make you employable and there are other factors to consider as well.

      They could have easily did rubbish degree's meaning the overall average they came to was way below normal plus the people they reviewed could have had no motivation or desire to force themselves into the sector they studied for.


      "Out of 1.4million graduates who started university in 1998 or later, 702,000 are earning too little to pay back their loans - 49 per cent.

      That proves 51% are earning enough to pay it back. You also have to consider the state the economy has been in during certain periods, the population of the UK in respect to the number of jobs and the amount who did degree's for the sake of it rather than for employment reasons. That doesn't show a true representation of what actually happens. The majority of the time, if a graduate really wants a job in the sector he will get one. I can guarantee that also doesn't include top end graduates who have left the UK to gain massive salaries in the US.

      Its realistically all down the individual what he wants to do with his degree and knowledge once graduated. Quite a few degree's even give you the skills to become self employed so the need to gain employment is not there. Many graduate web designers, programmers, multimedia specialists, artists, graphic designers, architects, and so on go alone. Some people do degree's just for the free ride and then have no motivation to ever get a graduate job to pay back the loan as they only went to university for the free ride off the taxpayer - that report doesn't take those free riders into account.


      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz17Yd6P4DF
      ^^^
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      (Original post by yawn)
      You're right, Quady to dissect the statistics which are notoriously unreliable (because they don't take into account all the differing variables) and out-of-date, none being compiled since 2007.

      What we do know is that the average lifetime higher incomes figures given by governments to justify charging relentlessly increasing fees to students do not take account of the cost of the degree or the student loan.

      So when David Willets quotes a figure of £100,000, not only is it out-of-date and discounting the effects of the recession, but also you need to deduct as much as £25,000 (shortly anticipated to rise to £40,000) from it.
      Whilst I agree fully with what you and Quady are saying none of the statistics can judge such things on an individual basis so the person earlier saying degrees are worthless really hasn't a clue as a degree is only as valuable as the person who has obtained it. Whether they put it to good use or not is entirely down to them.

      A degree opens up a whole lot of choices for you in the business world. It makes you more attractive to potential employers but also makes you come across more professional to employers. That's where many graduates do not use their qualification and build upon it to get them that job. They think the certificate alone is enough when quite simply no top employer will go by that unless he has utmost faith in you or can see a lot of potential with you and is willing to assist you. In today's economic climate, the opportunity of getting guided by an employer is few and far between and they would rather hire someone with the proven ability already rather than someone they need to assist. That's when portfolios and own websites of previous work come in.

      Imagine applying for a job as a web designer. What's better than saying in the interview to check out your personal site and to look out the portfolio of works. Not only does it make you look professional but it shows the employer you are capable of building such a site and you are knowledgeable of the scripting/programming languages to build the site. Make it more complicated to show use of other web design related skills. That's what an employer is looking for as well as a degree. That is what will nail you a top job. Even the sites in the portfolio could just be made up ones done in your free time to show use of flash within websites and so on. The number of web design/development related skills are endless. These skills can be used in many different sectors. Its just making sure you get them across to a potential employer. This is where many graduates fail as they apply for jobs with just a certificate and a polish CV. That won't cut it in today's world the majority of the time, you need that something extra.

      So many think university will land them that dream job when in reality you still need to put some hard work in after graduation. A degree can mean a lot for you if you want to start your own business or freelance because a degree along with a portfolio of work will mean customers will have more faith in you and more than likely be more willing to pay you for your services.

      People need to realise a degree never ever guarantees you a job. You only get out of life what you put into it.

      Who would you trust more out of the business cards below?

      (Insert Name) B.Sc - Computer Science
      Web Design & Development Ltd
      Portfolio Of Work Available
      www.(companyname).com
      Number Here

      or

      (Insert Name)
      Web Design & Development Ltd
      www.(companyname).com
      Number Here

      ..

      I know which one I'd prefer to get my website done. The one that not only has the qualifications to prove he is sufficient in getting the work done but he has a portfolio of work to show the level of ability. I'm not saying I wouldn't check out the other businesses website and contact them but on first impressions the top business card definitely appeals more.

      A degree is only a starting block and unless graduates are willing to build on that and use a bit of their own initiative then they are not going to go far in life at all.

      Someone without a degree with a lot of initiative is likely to go further than someone with a degree with little/no initiative.

      A degree just increases your chances and knowledge of the sector you chose, it does not guarantee you job. Obviously, the best combination is having a degree and a lot of initiative to put it to good use as you will have opportunities galore.
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      "
      They could have easily did rubbish degree's"

      I'm sure some of them did. I'm sure some of them had weak grammar too, despite their degrees.
      That's what I meant by lower standards.
      "the amount who did degree's for the sake of it rather than for employment reasons."
      I suppose the prospect of a 50K debt will make such people think twice in future.
      "The majority of the time, if a graduate really wants a job in the sector he will get one."
      Really? 49% don't really want jobs in a particular sector?
      "Quite a few degree's even give you the skills to become self employed so the need to gain employment is not there."

      then they won't be claiming benefit or working in Mickie Dees? Any statistics on this, or just speculation and hope?
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      www.factsonfees.com - read it.
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      (Original post by Doubledog)
      OK, here's another one :
      "A report by Kent University published last week found that one third of graduates from the class of 2003 earn no extra money as a result of their qualification."
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...on-922410.html

      "Out of 1.4million graduates who started university in 1998 or later, 702,000 are earning too little to pay back their loans - 49 per cent.

      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz17Yd6P4DF
      How does that show that graduate earnings have fallen?

      All you need is 3 preferably more sources showing graduate earnings is falling.

      All you have shown is that back to 1998 graduate earnings have been low enough to allow an ill thought out headline. As long as these headlines in a similar vein go back a few decades (they do at least until the 70s I know that much) then they show nothing.
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      (Original post by Quady)
      How does that show that graduate earnings have fallen?

      All you need is 3 preferably more sources showing graduate earnings is falling.

      All you have shown is that back to 1998 graduate earnings have been low enough to allow an ill thought out headline. As long as these headlines in a similar vein go back a few decades (they do at least until the 70s I know that much) then they show nothing.
      I think data from the Student Loan Company is significant, because they have an overview of what previous students are earning. Clearly,some graduates, those from prestigous unis or those with particularly sought after skills,are still doing well. My point is well supported: about half of graduates aren't even earning enough to have to repay the student loan.
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      (Original post by jb9191)
      Imagine applying for a job as a web designer. What's better than saying in the interview to check out your personal site and to look out the portfolio of works. Not only does it make you look professional but it shows the employer you are capable of building such a site and you are knowledgeable of the scripting/programming languages to build the site. Make it more complicated to show use of other web design related skills. That's what an employer is looking for as well as a degree. That is what will nail you a top job. Even the sites in the portfolio could just be made up ones done in your free time to show use of flash within websites and so on. The number of web design/development related skills are endless. These skills can be used in many different sectors. Its just making sure you get them across to a potential employer. This is where many graduates fail as they apply for jobs with just a certificate and a polish CV. That won't cut it in today's world the majority of the time, you need that something extra.

      So many think university will land them that dream job when in reality you still need to put some hard work in after graduation. A degree can mean a lot for you if you want to start your own business or freelance because a degree along with a portfolio of work will mean customers will have more faith in you and more than likely be more willing to pay you for your services.

      People need to realise a degree never ever guarantees you a job. You only get out of life what you put into it.

      Who would you trust more out of the business cards below?

      (Insert Name) B.Sc - Computer Science
      Web Design & Development Ltd
      Portfolio Of Work Available
      www.(companyname).com
      Number Here

      or

      (Insert Name)
      Web Design & Development Ltd
      www.(companyname).com
      Number Here

      ..

      I know which one I'd prefer to get my website done. The one that not only has the qualifications to prove he is sufficient in getting the work done but he has a portfolio of work to show the level of ability. I'm not saying I wouldn't check out the other businesses website and contact them but on first impressions the top business card definitely appeals more.

      A degree is only a starting block and unless graduates are willing to build on that and use a bit of their own initiative then they are not going to go far in life at all.

      Someone without a degree with a lot of initiative is likely to go further than someone with a degree with little/no initiative.

      A degree just increases your chances and knowledge of the sector you chose, it does not guarantee you job. Obviously, the best combination is having a degree and a lot of initiative to put it to good use as you will have opportunities galore.
      I don't think you're right here, particularly with this example, the portfolio comes first and foremost as you say but almost to the exclusion of the degree. People check the portfolio ask for a quote/delivery time and even get recommendations of previous clients before asking about your degree.

      Here it isn't the starting block, the portfolio is.

      Your point is right though, but then again I'm not sure why it has to do with earning premium figures...

      On the earning premium figures then yes there will be a graduate premium but none of the numbers out there are 'correct' so throwing them around is pointless.
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      (Original post by Doubledog)
      I think data from the Student Loan Company is significant, because they have an overview of what previous students are earning. Clearly,some graduates, those from prestigous unis or those with particularly sought after skills,are still doing well. My point is well supported: about half of graduates aren't even earning enough to have to repay the student loan.
      So how does that show graduate earnings have fallen?

      Or to put it crudely, how do you know 75% weren't paying anything back in 2003 and now only 25% aren't?
     
     
     
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