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The Republic of Ireland shoud re-join the Union Watch

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    (Original post by RandyMann)
    Have you got your sash?
    What does being an evangelical protestant have to do with unionism? I'm pro-union, it doesn't mean I'm a certain religion, or even a supporter of the Hanoverian side in the Glorious Revolution - even if I was, I'd certainly have nothing to do with the Orange Order.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Yes but why did the joint monarchy happen? Because Ireland had become rebellious and a threat to English security.
    Well, it was more or less inevitable after the Norman 'invasion' for which the groundwork was established by amateurs rather than the crown. The crown then realised that, without some intervention, there was going to be a rival Norman kingdom just over the water unless they sorted it out. The celtic Irish seemed rather fine with all of this.

    Ireland had actually acknowledged and crowned pretenders, the rebellion of the Earl of Kildare had reinforced the point of just how powerful Irish lords were, and reform had not touched Ireland in the slightest, thereby making it a possible platform for Catholic powers to invade England from. These were the main reasons. I wouldn't bring a Pope into it, they were either weak or corrupt at this time.
    Well, that's much later. That was certainly a reason for Great Britain to consider union in 1800, but the constitutional links were earlier and, to some degree, probably made political union inevitable too.

    As for the vote to become part of the Union- as discussed, what kind of parliament votes itself out of existence? A heavily bribed parliament that represented a fraction of Irish society. You can say English parliaments had the latter problem, but at least..they were all English, the exact same nationality.
    Well, yes and no. The aristocracy that dominated English parliaments were 'foreign' too: they were Norman. They spoke an entirely different language from the English people for much of England's history. Oddly enough, the Anglo-Normans in Ireland integrated quicker with the native culture than their English counterparts.

    Parliaments certainly do vote themselves out of existence, and often for the good of the places they represent. As you hint at, vested interests often prevent politicians voting to abolish their powerbase: this is why 'bribery' was likely deployed - as a way of compensating those who would lose their positions as a result of the union. To suggest, however, that it was out-right bribed is wrong: for one, the Irish Parliament supported union before the Crown or Parliament of Great Britain did; secondly, the 'bribery' aspect seemed to kick in between votes - yet even the first vote showed a (quite slender) majority for union.

    We may be extremely similar in everyday terms- same high streets, same programmes etc- but not culturally.
    Well, I'd argue that is as much part of culture as GAA or Irish literature, perhaps even the more sociologically important element.

    I certainly don't get the impression Ireland would be out of place in the UK: we've already got a very fair diversity for the size of our country. When it was in the UK before, Ireland was perhaps historically more distinctive as the Reformation was never pushed there with any degree of enthusiasm. That was one of the most important political and cultural issues of the time, but today has far less importance.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Haha ah you're supposed to provide a translation, mine wasn't exact but it'll do. Now I've never heard that phrase before? I thought I would have come across them all...
    I always liked this one - it means roughly "may the enemies of Ireland never have friends"
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    Should Ireland re-join the Union .. :argh::argh::clap2::clap2: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA



    :congrats: How funny
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    Yes :P

    Then we can put suspected IRA members to work in the suffolk tea vats, never to be seen again. They may make slightly weaker tea, as an act of dissent, but that's a risk we need to take. :P

    _Kar
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    (Original post by TheRevolution)
    Who agrees that Ireland should become part of the kingdon again?

    Who also agree that we should have forced them to do it and withholded bailout money (obv the EU prevent us from doing this in reality so hypotheticallY)?

    Is it likely that Irlenad coming back would be good for Btitain economically and politically?
    lol i'd love you to say that in a room full of irish people.
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    (Original post by Mick.w)
    lol i'd love you to say that in a room full of irish people.
    Yes that would be a laugh.

    Almost as bad as what happened to the jackass on facebook who said "HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY" to an Englsihman.
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    Mighe be just the thing to rid you of your ignorance though.
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    (Original post by TheRevolution)
    Yes that would be a laugh.

    Almost as bad as what happened to the jackass on facebook who said "HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY" to an Englsihman.
    ah those crazy ol englsihmen
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    (Original post by L i b)

    I certainly don't get the impression Ireland would be out of place in the UK: we've already got a very fair diversity for the size of our country. When it was in the UK before, Ireland was perhaps historically more distinctive as the Reformation was never pushed there with any degree of enthusiasm. That was one of the most important political and cultural issues of the time, but today has far less importance.
    Very true, I've always felt an affinity towards the Irish culturally.

    That being said though, the amount of xenophobia/racism in this thread is rather disturbing.
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    Have either of you been to Ireland though? I've been in England a few times and been shocked at how different it is, I thought it would be more similar! Racism aside, Ireland would only fit in well with those of Irish descent, of which there are many. There are a large number of people who have let the Daily Mail's Ireland-bashing in the wake of the English bombings sink into their brains, and others who bring out the same potato-eating crap stereotypes, my particular favourite is the binge-drinking one, a phemonemon exclusive to Ireland. On the Irish side of course, we have those of the rabid '800 years!' mindset, along with the vast majority who don't have a problem with English people but will still cheer on any team who plays England, no matter who it is. There's still a big gulf there.

    Interestingly, a thread on boards.ie with the same thread title has been locked, and it's not the first. This idea is just so repugnant to people, people would prefer to be independent than have a crap economy, even if they don't have any kind of rabid nationalist views.
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    Of course, had Ireland fought the Nazis in world war two it would've been granted full unification and we wouldn't be having this arguement.

    I suppose the Nazis weren't evil enough for the Irish to take on...maybe if the Nazi party had consisted of innocent women and children in shopping centres then Ireland could've formed some sort of Republican Army (I don't know exactly what they could name it) and fight, but the Nazis weren't worth De Valera caring about.
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    Ha, Ireland would have been destroyed be WWII, which is why we remained neutral. Ireland at the time was an almost completely rural economy, it had little or no infrastructure, industry..nothing. It had a very low population that was struggling with the decimation of the famine and continued emigration, no jobs, no nothing. Do you really think a country like that would bounce back like heavily industrialised countries with high populations were able to? It may seem cowardly, but DeV was protecting the country for the best. You're acting like this happened yesterday or something. And yes, Ireland harboured actual Nazis and that was disgraceful, I don't agree with that at all. But thousands of Irish fought in the British army during both wars, there were entire Irish battalions. What about Switzerland and other neutral countries? Neutral for a reason- because they, like Ireland, cannot sustain a war and are not equipped for such recovery that would be neccessary. You do realise that Ireland's economy only got off the ground in in the late 1980's? And look at it now!
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    (Original post by Daryyl's Dead)
    Of course, had Ireland fought the Nazis in world war two it would've been granted full unification
    It really wouldn't. The reasons behind partition were still very much alive in the 1940s.
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    Churchill was going to give the six counties back "to be a nation once again" if Ireland let British troops be based in Ireland during the war.
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    Not with the current state of the Irish economy :rolleyes:
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    The Union is as good as over anyway. The only just move now is an English parliment.
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    (Original post by Time Tourist)
    The Union is as good as over anyway. The only just move now is an English parliment.
    I quite liked the idea of regional assemblies/parliaments in England.
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    For my part i am a sentimentalist ,i happen to believe that the english,scots ,welsh,and irish working together make a great unit. There are too many people in england of irish descent (6 million with an irish grandparent, of which i am one) for ireland to feel like a foreign country. Sovereignty could not have been an essential issue in the fight for independence ,otherwise they would not have rushed to embrace the EU with such vigour. The problem was one of second class treatment within the union-not least by irish absentee landlords. Also we have the problem of religion ,with catholic and protestant establishments supressing the other tradition.Now much of that problem has gone ,because england is now more secular than protestant, and since ' Father Ted' , and sordid priestly behaviour ,the catholic church can't hold sway over the irish people again. Personally i would like to see a united ireland as part of a british/irish (Brireland?)federation.
    If this doesn't happen,and i doubt it,one thing i would ask is for some irish people who have been in the uk for generations ,please stop raising your children to be subtley anti british generally ,and anti english in particular.Be proud of your heritage,but don't be chauvanistic about it.Blimey ,even before the umbilical cord is cut ,some babies are having the celtic scarf wrapped around them.I love ireland to bits,but it was the english who fed ,educated,and watered me. I feel uneasy sitting in london,under the Tricolour,hearing people sing irish rebel songs,people whose only cultural connection to ireland is drinking Guinness(brewed in London !).Its like those Bengali women you see in East London ,wearing the veil,even though they don't traditionally in Bengal.Like they used to say about the colonial english ,'more english,than the english'.That was hypocritical, and indefensable.I assure you that if Ireland are doing well in football,then even the non-irish english will get behind Ireland in a way that they wouldn't with France for example.
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    (Original post by Peace'n'loveman)
    For my part i am a sentimentalist ,i happen to believe that the english,scots ,welsh,and irish working together make a great unit. There are too many people in england of irish descent (6 million with an irish grandparent, of which i am one) for ireland to feel like a foreign country. Sovereignty could not have been an essential issue in the fight for independence ,otherwise they would not have rushed to embrace the EU with such vigour. The problem was one of second class treatment within the union-not least by irish absentee landlords. Also we have the problem of religion ,with catholic and protestant establishments supressing the other tradition.Now much of that problem has gone ,because england is now more secular than protestant, and since ' Father Ted' , and sordid priestly behaviour ,the catholic church can't hold sway over the irish people again. Personally i would like to see a united ireland as part of a british/irish (Brireland?)federation.
    If this doesn't happen,and i doubt it,one thing i would ask is for some irish people who have been in the uk for generations ,please stop raising your children to be subtley anti british generally ,and anti english in particular.Be proud of your heritage,but don't be chauvanistic about it.Blimey ,even before the umbilical cord is cut ,some babies are having the celtic scarf wrapped around them.I love ireland to bits,but it was the english who fed ,educated,and watered me. I feel uneasy sitting in london,under the Tricolour,hearing people sing irish rebel songs,people whose only cultural connection to ireland is drinking Guinness(brewed in London !).Its like those Bengali women you see in East London ,wearing the veil,even though they don't traditionally in Bengal.Like they used to say about the colonial english ,'more english,than the english'.That was hypocritical, and indefensable.I assure you that if Ireland are doing well in football,then even the non-irish english will get behind Ireland in a way that they wouldn't with France for example.

    When has Ireland ever been anything but a problem for the UK? It goes all the way back, post Norman invasion..early medieval era..17th/18th/19th centuries...and then the fight for independence and it's STILL a problem. The UK is giving Ireland an €8 billion loan because it would suffer most if Ireland fell. That is just the reality of it, this history is the reason for it. I'm sure it'd be much easier if England had not declared ownership of Ireland in the 12th century. It is faintly delusional to act as if a lovely amicable union is possible. No offence, I just think it's too far removed from the reality. The fight for independence was ongoing for centuries, it did not erupt in 1916. There are many failed attempts, 1798, 1803..even some in the midst of the famine. Fighting for a nation to be independent and govern itself is COMPLETELY different from the EU. May I remind you that the UK also joined, in the same year. Everyone seems to conveniently forget this. The EU may implement policies etc..this bears no resemblance to the treatment of Ireland pre-independence. In fact, the EU has funded Ireland's roads and other infrastructural projects, the EU helped massively in getting Ireland on its feet- and what is it doing now? Giving us massive loans. Sure, Ireland has lost fishing territories and our power to hold referenda on EU policy is a major pain in the ass for all involved (they are too technical for the average joe to vote on in the first place), but the benefits far outweigh this.

    The Catholic church still holds sway. They are on the majority of schools boards of management and have a direct say in the running of them. Plenty of other schools are religious also. Abortion is still illegal. Ireland is still very religious, just not in the younger generations. The church has lost a lot of its power, it definitely still holds a lot. How else are all those priests protected from the law? Unmarried pregnant girls are no longer sent to work in horrific conditions in laundries before their babies are adopted, but it's not the reality to say the church no longer holds sway. Our constitution was guided by an extremely dominant archbishop at the time, and still retains a lot of the original sentiments.

    There are ignorant sentiments on either side. Most Irish people have no problem with English people, but will feel resentment over their history. Nobody cheers for England in a match, they just don't. However, things have progressed. Ireland played England in Croke park, the scene of a British massacre, and nothing happened, no riots no nothing. I thought that was great. On the other side, there is an attitude slightly reminiscent of the old 'barbarians' attitude- the Irish are seen as backwards, thick, drunk and subsisting entirely on potatoes. As well as having IRA membership. It exists, though obviously not the opinions of everyone. One thing I think that would help was if the Irish history that was taught was taught in a more objective light. I know that Ireland is only part of the UK's history, but I think it would greatly help if the attitude of textbooks was better. As for second and third generation Irish, how bitter can they really be against England? I would think this comes from fear that they will 'betray' their ancestors etc. by being English, so every so often they try to show how Irish they are. I would not take that as face value. As for Celtic, pfft! much better if it was a GAA scarf or jersey!
 
 
 
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