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The bullying argument against gay adoption... Watch

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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Mostly I pretty much agree with you. Generally I see biological/evolutionary arguments as just a bit of a cop out of what should be a really interesting argument- such as the limp point that I responded to with 'so?' My dismissal was a reaction to the really boring (and incorrect) assumptions that gender roles are 'natural', and that this makes them morally right. Yeah, I think I generally agree with you, but honestly I don't find arguments about evolution/gender roles that relevent most of the time.



    Wow, long post. Again, I don't disagree with you. I do think, however, that the gender roles of 'women=cooks and men=diy' that that guy was proposing are practically redundant as real descriptions of people (or at least are just vastly simplified). Gendered identity is of course incredibly important, and we can't escape it- and the stereotypical roles of women=cook men=diy do direct our society in a significant way, but not because people are actually like that. They've become archetypal, and arguably everything that we do is a response to them in some way or another- but they're not actually a reflection of what society is actually like (not any more) as that guy was claiming. They're symbols more than anything, of a 'norm' that isn't actually normal. Our whole society is queer, yet still holds up these stereotypes as some sort of truth.

    So yeah, people do act in response to these roles- girls wear dresses, boys trousers, etc. But in just as much of a widespread and significant way the reaction to stereotypical gender roles is rejection, especially as it becomes more and more socially acceptable to do so. These roles are constantly being subverted. And that's not to say we're escaping them, or that we're able to live our lives outside of gender- of course we can't- but we can and do live our lives within these boundaries whilst pushing and testing them.
    The only point I don't agree on is that gender is inescapable. I know there must be a basic level of subscription to an extent, but inside the home (you can take that in the identity politics context or an actual home, both seem to be applicable, although I don't subscribe to identity politics at all), in private life with friends, I think depending on who you choose to talk to you can disregard it.
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    (Original post by Wednesday Bass)
    Then it's the attitude that has to change. All banning gay adoption is denormalise being gay. If gay people can't be treated like normal, then people will never become more open minded to the idea of same sex couples.
    It's definitely the attitude that has to change, but change takes time and that change shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child. Gay people are still going to be gay without gay adoption and society as a whole needs to fully accept homosexuality before we accept gay adoption, remember that we're talking about children bullying children here, children that inherit their bigotry from their parents.
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    (Original post by anti-duck)
    It's definitely the attitude that has to change, but change takes time and that change shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child. Gay people are still going to be gay without gay adoption and society as a whole needs to fully accept homosexuality before we accept gay adoption, remember that we're talking about children bullying children here, children that inherit their bigotry from their parents.
    Well then we have the impossible task of "what counts at the expense of a child?"
    "when is the bullying the result of the parents being of the same sex?"

    It's never a direct cause, sometimes it'll be used as ammunition, but if it didn't exist then something else would be used.

    It's a great sound bite "shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child" but things aren't as simple as that.
    It's not a matter of prescription either; "things should be that simple". This is unfortunately just the way things have to be (in terms of it being an indirect cause).

    What more is there?
    Kids are often cruel, and will use sometimes anything they can as a tool for their cruelness.
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    (Original post by anti-duck)
    It's definitely the attitude that has to change, but change takes time and that change shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child. Gay people are still going to be gay without gay adoption and society as a whole needs to fully accept homosexuality before we accept gay adoption, remember that we're talking about children bullying children here, children that inherit their bigotry from their parents.
    But how on earth can gay society ever be fully accepted if we still don't give them the same the same rights as heterosexual couples. Not allowing gay couples to adopt etc implies there is something "wrong" with being gay and just reinforces homophobic beliefs. As long as these sorts of barriers are in place, gay people will never be fully accepted.

    Yes, it's a possibility that the children will be bullied, should we also not allow fat/ugly/people that wear funny clothes to adopt in case their adoptive children also get bullied? If a child is being bullied because their adoptive parents are gay, then it is the bullies that should be punished and made an example of. We shouldn't just accept bullying because some people consider it "inevitable". If we stop gay people being allowed to adopt because of bullying then the homophobic bullies have won.
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    (Original post by anti-duck)
    It's definitely the attitude that has to change, but change takes time and that change shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child. Gay people are still going to be gay without gay adoption and society as a whole needs to fully accept homosexuality before we accept gay adoption, remember that we're talking about children bullying children here, children that inherit their bigotry from their parents.
    I think you've missed the point a bit. The previous two posters echo my feelings on the subject. How on Earth are gay people supposed to be accepted as part of a modern society when they are not given the same rights as straight people. We need to normalise (if we haven't already) being gay, not limit them to what they can and cannot do.
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      i think the argument is just funny. to forbid gay couples from the beauty of raising a child because of bullying. i have tried but i just can't get my head around how people can believe this. i totally understand all the other reasons against gay people adopting. i don't agree with them but i can understand why people would think them. but this..?
      children need to grow a pair. everybody gets bullied and it's not the worst thing that can happen to a child. being stuck in an orphanage seems a hell of a lot worse. i've missed most of this thread so my post is probably a repeat of everyone else's but to the firm supporters of this argument: what do you think a bunch of kids in an orphanage would say if they had the choice to remain where they were or be given a set of gay parents with the guarantee that they would be bullied. yeah.
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      (Original post by there's too much love)
      Well then we have the impossible task of "what counts at the expense of a child?"
      "when is the bullying the result of the parents being of the same sex?"

      It's never a direct cause, sometimes it'll be used as ammunition, but if it didn't exist then something else would be used.

      It's a great sound bite "shouldn't be forced at the expense of ANY child" but things aren't as simple as that.
      It's not a matter of prescription either; "things should be that simple". This is unfortunately just the way things have to be (in terms of it being an indirect cause).

      What more is there?
      Kids are often cruel, and will use sometimes anything they can as a tool for their cruelness.
      (Original post by tinywings)
      But how on earth can gay society ever be fully accepted if we still don't give them the same the same rights as heterosexual couples. Not allowing gay couples to adopt etc implies there is something "wrong" with being gay and just reinforces homophobic beliefs. As long as these sorts of barriers are in place, gay people will never be fully accepted.

      Yes, it's a possibility that the children will be bullied, should we also not allow fat/ugly/people that wear funny clothes to adopt in case their adoptive children also get bullied? If a child is being bullied because their adoptive parents are gay, then it is the bullies that should be punished and made an example of. We shouldn't just accept bullying because some people consider it "inevitable". If we stop gay people being allowed to adopt because of bullying then the homophobic bullies have won.
      (Original post by Wednesday Bass)
      I think you've missed the point a bit. The previous two posters echo my feelings on the subject. How on Earth are gay people supposed to be accepted as part of a modern society when they are not given the same rights as straight people. We need to normalise (if we haven't already) being gay, not limit them to what they can and cannot do.
      I understand what each of you are saying, but I firmly believe that homosexuality can begin to be normalised without the rights to gay adoption. It was only a few days ago that Obama announced that openly gay people are allowed to join the US military, one of the most modern society's in the world! That demonstrates where we are. Normalise homosexuality in every way we can before normalising gay adoption. Unfortunately homosexuality is probably the most discriminated area of all, it's just not comparable to being ugly/fat/disabled/bald/whatever...
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      (Original post by anti-duck)
      I understand what each of you are saying, but I firmly believe that homosexuality can begin to be normalised without the rights to gay adoption. It was only a few days ago that Obama announced that openly gay people are allowed to join the US military, one of the most modern society's in the world! That demonstrates where we are. Normalise homosexuality in every way we can before normalising gay adoption. Unfortunately homosexuality is probably the most discriminated area of all, it's just not comparable to being ugly/fat/disabled/bald/whatever...
      By definition, you can't. To normalise a group of people, you treat them the same as the rest of society. To withhold something from gays means you cannot normalise homosexuality because you are treating them differently.
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      (Original post by anti-duck)
      I understand what each of you are saying, but I firmly believe that homosexuality can begin to be normalised without the rights to gay adoption. It was only a few days ago that Obama announced that openly gay people are allowed to join the US military, one of the most modern society's in the world! That demonstrates where we are. Normalise homosexuality in every way we can before normalising gay adoption. Unfortunately homosexuality is probably the most discriminated area of all, it's just not comparable to being ugly/fat/disabled/bald/whatever...
      That doesn't address any of the points I made.

      And I think animals are oppressed to much greater extent than homosexuals.
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      (Original post by there's too much love)
      The only point I don't agree on is that gender is inescapable. I know there must be a basic level of subscription to an extent, but inside the home (you can take that in the identity politics context or an actual home, both seem to be applicable, although I don't subscribe to identity politics at all), in private life with friends, I think depending on who you choose to talk to you can disregard it.
      It determines the way your friends treat you, the relationships you have with your family, your very position in that family (whether you're a sister/brother/mother/father). It determines how you view yourself. There's no such thing as an identity which isn't gendered. There aren't even words for such a thing.
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      (Original post by missygeorgia)
      It determines the way your friends treat you, the relationships you have with your family, your very position in that family (whether you're a sister/brother/mother/father). It determines how you view yourself. There's no such thing as an identity which isn't gendered. There aren't even words for such a thing.
      It may to begin with but is that really inescapable once you analysis it? Can you really not bring it into everyday life?
      Just because there aren't everyday words and concepts for this kind of thing could there not be one within a group of friends? Those categorisations then could take over how you determine each others identity, no?
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      My mum and dad were not allowed to adopt because my dad has CF.
      Single people are not allowed to adopt.
      Why should homosexual people be allowed to adopt before these people???
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      (Original post by Anonymous)
      My mum and dad were not allowed to adopt because my dad has CF.
      Single people are not allowed to adopt.
      Why should homosexual people be allowed to adopt before these people???
      Just because they're not allowed to adopt it does not follow that same sex couples ought not be allowed to adopt.
      That said I think single people ought to be allowed to adopt, I wasn't aware that they couldn't. That raises issues over why single parents are allowed to continue looking after their children.

      I don't know what CF is, so I can't comment on that.
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      its not just bullying....jeezeee i don't think i would be happy if my mum and dad was the same sex....no matter how feminine a guy is it would never be the same as having a mother and vice versa for lesbians... what is the world turning into...........the end times are vast approaching
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      (Original post by jus-mi)
      its not just bullying....jeezeee i don't think i would be happy if my mum and dad was the same sex....no matter how feminine a guy is it would never be the same as having a mother and vice versa for lesbians... what is the world turning into...........the end times are vast approaching
      You presuppose how a 'family unit' ought to be. Please justify why a mother and father is necessary, and why those roles can't be fulfilled by people of different sexes. Furthermore please justify why a family unit is necessary when there have been cultures that consider children not to be the children of any particular beings, but instead of that society. There to be brought up by everyone.
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      (Original post by there's too much love)
      You presuppose how a 'family unit' ought to be. Please justify why a mother and father is necessary, and why those roles can't be fulfilled by people of different sexes. Furthermore please justify why a family unit is necessary when there have been cultures that consider children not to be the children of any particular beings, but instead of that society. There to be brought up by everyone.

      mate i'm on xmas hols i have to write essays at uni already i really can't be asked to write one now. Just that IN MY OPINION gay adoption shouldn't happen. :cool:
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      (Original post by jus-mi)
      mate i'm on xmas hols i have to write essays at uni already i really can't be asked to write one now. Just that IN MY OPINION gay adoption shouldn't happen. :cool:
      An opinion that doesn't show any signs of being backed by logic.
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        (Original post by jus-mi)
        mate i'm on xmas hols i have to write essays at uni already i really can't be asked to write one now. Just that IN MY OPINION gay adoption shouldn't happen. :cool:
        thank you for your most valuable contribution to this discussion!
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        (Original post by Wednesday Bass)
        By definition, you can't. To normalise a group of people, you treat them the same as the rest of society. To withhold something from gays means you cannot normalise homosexuality because you are treating them differently.
        To normalise implies that there are steps to take before reaching normality, are you telling me that the only way that homosexuality will reach normality in society is by society accepting gay adoption? All I'm saying is that there are other steps to take before society as a whole can accept gay adoption. This very thread amongst others ironically shows that homosexuality is not accepted as normality, yet.

        (Original post by there's too much love)
        That doesn't address any of the points I made.

        And I think animals are oppressed to much greater extent than homosexuals.
        Well I really didn't want to stray from the topic at hand, which is 'The bullying argument against gay adoption...' specifically.

        Yes bullying will still exist regardless of race/sexual preference/weight/etc... but why give people more ammunition to bully? But I personally differ from your opinion that a parent or parents lifestyle choice can't be a direct cause of bullying.
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        (Original post by anti-duck)
        To normalise implies that there are steps to take before reaching normality, are you telling me that the only way that homosexuality will reach normality in society is by society accepting gay adoption? All I'm saying is that there are other steps to take before society as a whole can accept gay adoption. This very thread amongst others ironically shows that homosexuality is not accepted as normality, yet.



        Well I really didn't want to stray from the topic at hand, which is 'The bullying argument against gay adoption...' specifically.

        Yes bullying will still exist regardless of race/sexual preference/weight/etc... but why give people more ammunition to bully? But I personally differ from your opinion that a parent or parents lifestyle choice can't be a direct cause of bullying.
        Explain how bullying can ever be shown to be directly caused by same sex couples adopting.
        How we can tell if a child would be bullied anyway etc.
        Because if you want that to be part of your argument you have to show how it can be seen.
       
       
       
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