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Females in Medicine: A Waste of Money. watch

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    (Original post by No Future)
    Hope you don't get me as your (illiterate) doctor, as I wouldn't be able to read your notes

    I guess my AEA and A Level grades in English lit were mistakes then?
    English lit is a ****ing joke, so what is your point? :indiff:
    And frankly the OP's point can't be argued with unless you have statistics showing a different side of the argument. As it stands, female doctors are not financially viable when compared to male doctors. Now I don't know if you are aware but the UK is in a bit of a recession, and on top of that efficiently is generally a good thing for all and any services. Ergo training female doctors is a waste of time.
    Got figures showing this to be untrue or just going to put forward an ignorant, juvenile argument?
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    So the NHS doesn't need to be efficient as it works on fairies and not, I don't know, this crazy thing called money?
    :rolleyes:
    What are you on about?

    You said: The NHS is a business
    I said: The NHS is not a business, a key feature of business is PROFIT

    This has nothing to do with efficiency.

    Dear me.
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    English lit is a ****ing joke, so what is your point? :indiff:
    And frankly the OP's point can't be argued with unless you have statistics showing a different side of the argument. As it stands, female doctors are not financially viable when compared to male doctors. Now I don't know if you are aware but the UK is in a bit of a recession, and on top of that efficiently is generally a good thing for all and any services. Ergo training female doctors is a waste of time.
    Got figures showing this to be untrue or just going to put forward an ignorant, juvenile argument?
    Oh Lord, you are too funny.
    Read the thread and the posts made by med students, esp Sarky. The OP's statistics are not necessarily representative.
    My point is: quick better ring up my dean, they let an illiterate into med school!
    In what capacity are you qualified to claim that A2 Eng lit (and AEA English) is a joke?

    Who do you think fills all the unpopular jobs that male Drs don't like so much? GPs, paeds, psychiatry etc etc

    Given the statements you have been touting, it is somewhat ironic that you choose to call me ignorant and juvenile.
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    (Original post by jms)
    not every doctor wants to be a consultant.
    Importantly GP's are not consultants and are disproportionately female.

    They're also bloody important.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    What are you on about?

    You said: The NHS is a business
    I said: The NHS is not a business, a key feature of business is PROFIT

    This has nothing to do with efficiency.

    Dear me.
    I only said business because the NHS has people working for salaries, not for free, nor are the drugs etc, a fact you seem to want to overlook.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Oh Lord, you are too funny.
    Read the thread and the posts made by med students, esp Sarky. The OP's statistics are not necessarily representative.
    My point is: quick better ring up my dean, they let an illiterate into med school!
    In what capacity are you qualified to claim that A2 Eng lit (and AEA English) is a joke?

    Who do you think fills all the unpopular jobs that male Drs don't like so much? GPs, paeds, psychiatry etc etc

    Given the statements you have been touting, it is somewhat ironic that you choose to call me ignorant and juvenile.
    You can answer exams but have the analytical capability of a child.
    Unless you have facts & figures to show how the OP is wrong, your view is nothing but a meager opinion vs statistics.
    English literature is a joke because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, not to mention it's just meaningless, and often pretentious, interpretation. Go look up when Radio 1 had two experts on Shakespeare get only B's because the question was so poor. What, didn't you know this already? :rolleyes:
    Do you have any stats to back your point up or am I to presume you are omniscience and your word is fact?
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    You can answer exams but have the analytical capability of a child.
    Unless you have facts & figures to show how the OP is wrong, your view is nothing but a meager opinion vs statistics.
    English literature is a joke because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, not to mention it's just meaningless, and often pretentious, interpretation. Go look up when Radio 1 had two experts on Shakespeare get only B's because the question was so poor. What, didn't you know this already? :rolleyes:
    Do you have any stats to back your point up or am I to presume you are omniscience and your word is fact?
    There are a lot of people in this thread who don't have an understanding of medicine as a career, and are just posting because they are trying to defend women on the crazy thought that they are being attacked in some way. Research medicine as a career, read the stats, then give your opinions.

    For instance, there are some people here who don't even know that there are different grades to medicine, and just think that as soon as you graduate from medical school you are a standard 'doctor' and has an equal amount of responsibility of somebody who is 10 years older than them.

    This thread is not an attack on women; it is a discussion regarding how women get more places than men in medical school, yet DON'T STAY ON and QUIT AFTER A FEW YEARS FOR MATERNAL REASONS, whereas the men who didn't get a place are f'****d and don't have the oppurtunity to become doctors, even though they would have stayed on till the retirement age.
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    (Original post by Jabbo12)
    There are a lot of people in this thread who don't have an understanding of medicine as a career,.
    Our winning candidate Mazty
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    My own doctor said this! (Male) I can't remember his exact figures, it was something like out of 15 women he graduated with, only 3 are still in the medical profession. (He is a GP about 7 years) However, I don't know enough to comment, not least because medicine is different here, and fees are MUCH less.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    My own doctor said this! (Male) I can't remember his exact figures, it was something like out of 15 women he graduated with, only 3 are still in the medical profession. (He is a GP about 7 years) However, I don't know enough to comment, not least because medicine is different here, and fees are MUCH less.
    Interesting point.
    So all the money that the country spent training the other twelve to be doctors was wasted and could have been used to train and pay more nurses, there is a bad shortage of nurses and that would be money better spent in my opinion.
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    Controversial comment, bro.
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    (Original post by Jabbo12)
    There are a lot of people in this thread who don't have an understanding of medicine as a career, and are just posting because they are trying to defend women on the crazy thought that they are being attacked in some way. Research medicine as a career, read the stats, then give your opinions.

    For instance, there are some people here who don't even know that there are different grades to medicine, and just think that as soon as you graduate from medical school you are a standard 'doctor' and has an equal amount of responsibility of somebody who is 10 years older than them.

    This thread is not an attack on women; it is a discussion regarding how women get more places than men in medical school, yet DON'T STAY ON and QUIT AFTER A FEW YEARS FOR MATERNAL REASONS, whereas the men who didn't get a place are f'****d and don't have the oppurtunity to become doctors, even though they would have stayed on till the retirement age.
    Please provide proof for the statement that women don't stay on and quit after a few years. Just to give you a helping hand, maternity leave is not quitting.

    Anyone who is actually interested, there are lots of good resources arguing both for and against women in medicine, I can provide sources if you want to find out more. But for those that wish to coninue making bull**** statements based on nothing other than conjecture, I have nothing to offer you but my sympathy. I don't care if people don't agree with me but at least argue your point well.
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    I have no strong opinion on this subject, and rightly so, because I'd probably get owned by someone, somewhere, if I did. I do think however, that women make doctors that are more empathetic and better in touch with their patients, and so more should be done to STOP them from leaving in the first place.

    Then again, they may leave temporarily or opt not to go for a consultant position and rather stay a specialist or something for perfectly good reasons such as starting a family.
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    To conclude that training female doctors is a waste of money it would require a lot more statistical data. For example, perhaps some women do leave the profession, but who's to say that the quality of female doctors is not higher than that of males? The OP has given no evidence in this area. If this were the case then it would lead to an argument about quantity vs quality.

    Secondly, it has been said that you cannot compare medical students now with consultants now. The OP has argued that women have been a majority in medical school since the 90s. However, while these doctors who were in medical school in the 90s are of age to be consultants now, there is still a large proportion of consultants who went to school before this time; hence it is reasonable that there would be fewer female consultants than male. Also, how do we know that the reason that there a fewer female consultants is not a product of the system? Perhaps there are fewer female consultants because they are overlooked for male candidates in a traditionally male dominated field.

    My main problem with the OP's argument is with his solution. Firstly, by setting a quota of 25% female you are not necessarily weeding out the female candidates who will quit. Surely most women do not plan on leaving their career choice. Perhaps some find that after they have had children they don't wish to return to medicine, however I hardly think you can predict which women will do this. And even if someone did plan to have a shortened career, if they knew admitting this would hurt their chances they wouldn't reveal it to an admissions board.

    Secondly, by setting a quota of 25% women you are letting in more men. However these men who wouldn't have gotten in but would under the new system will be of a lower standard than those let in under the current system. Hence the overall quality of doctors would fall. Again, a quality vs quantity argument. There is a reason that everyone who applies to medicine doesn't get in, it ensures that only the best become doctors. Hence the competition that women provide makes the quality of the male medical students higher.

    Until we can see the future there is no real way to make sure that only those that will stick with it are accepted. However, part of the admissions process is trying to determine how dedicated a person is to the career, so that is already included in the current system.

    I suggest that the OP gather more facts and look a little deeper into the issue before making broad statements about the worth of women. Only then can we begin to look into a well-reasoned solution to the problem.
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    (Original post by Sarky)
    Please provide proof for the statement that women don't stay on and quit after a few years. Just to give you a helping hand, maternity leave is not quitting.

    Anyone who is actually interested, there are lots of good resources arguing both for and against women in medicine, I can provide sources if you want to find out more. But for those that wish to coninue making bull**** statements based on nothing other than conjecture, I have nothing to offer you but my sympathy. I don't care if people don't agree with me but at least argue your point well.
    Clearly no one is just going to spell it out in an article lol

    but looking at OP's references the comment comes from the second article and the reference is from

    Gravelle H, Hole A. The work hours of general practitioners: survey of English GPs. Br J Gen Pract 2007;57:96-100.

    Eagles JM, Addie K, Brown T. Retirement intentions of consultant psychiatrists. Psychiatric Bull 2005;29:374

    Twice as many females than men plan to retire before their 55th birthday - not really 'work a few years and leave' but i guess 'work for less years'. Also more female GPs actually retire before 60 than do men.

    Then the other two factors which contribute to women working less over their entire career are (1) maternity leave and (2) the fact that more women work part time than do their men counterparts.

    Davidson JM, Lambert TW, Goldacre MJ. Career pathways and destinations 18 years on among doctors who qualified in the United Kingdom in 1977: postal questionnaire survey. BMJ1998;317:1425

    and (3) females are less likely to do overtime work

    Gravelle H, Hole A. The work hours of general practitioners: survey of English GPs. Br J Gen Pract 2007;57:96-100.

    What im saying is that these claims are not unsubstantiated. Their interpretation however is controversial.
 
 
 
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