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Too Many Commas
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#161
(Original post by Jessica_Mae)
That wouldn't be natural at all, you have the abilty to think, decide and eat other foods... animals have to hunt each other down, how ever disgusting and cruel it is, that is nature.
There is a big distinction between the situation when a lion eats meat, and the situation when a human eats meat. Lions can not decide to live on grain and vegetables. A lion must eat meat or die. A vegetarian diet for humans, on the other hand, is actually healthier than one which includes meat. Whereas lions must eat meat to survive, humans eat meat simply for the pleasure of tasting meat!!!
Bull****. Meat is the best source for densely packed nutrients by FAR, and without hunting animals the human brain wouldn't have developed fast enough.

If you are starving in the wilderness, eating meat is literally the safest, most reliable way to get energy- randomly grabbing plants and attempting to eat them would be far more likely to lead to your death, since human beings lack the mechanisms to figure out just by sight, touch, smell, etc, what plants are safe and what may be poisonous.

You eat nothing but grain and plants out in the wild, you're going to die pretty quickly unless you have a bloody wilderness handbook to help you identify poisonous things.

OP, you contradict yourself so much it's ridiculous. You claim animals are more intelligent and more worth saving than humans, and yet then make the distinction here that "humans can think, unlike lions".

And your taking of medicine IS relevant to the debate, never mind your consumption of animal products like eggs and milk (since you are not a vegan, but a vegetarian) and even FISH- don't fish have thoughts and emotions and horrific experiences, too? Or do they not matter, since they aren't cute and fluffy like mice and rabbits and so you don't have to think about them?

Face it. We need animal testing and farming and such in order to continue as a species. We NEED to find solutions to diseases that cause us disproportionate amounts of suffering- because, unlike animals, humans UNDERSTAND mortality as they suffer whatever physical and mental ailments that befall them. Animals do not understand that they can die, while for humans it is a constant lingering level of consciousness. Never mind that balance is what is best for food production everywhere- if everyone was a vegetarian, demand for non-meat products would be sky high, just like how if everyone chose to eat meat then there wouldn't be enough to go around.

You've been spending too much time absorbing PETA propaganda.


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Gwilym101
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This may make you think.
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username457532
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(Original post by Jessica_Mae)
Animals don't kill for fun there is always a reason.

The ONLY animal that kills purely for fun is humans. Other animals kill for food, to protect themselves or their young, for a mate or for territory, to eliminate competition, etc. They certainly do not always eat the animal they've killed - if they're killing to protect themselves or win a mate, they're not doing it for food - but there is ALWAYS a reason for the killing.
Seriously, have you never seen a cat kill a mouse or bird JUST FOR FUN?
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coconut2456
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The problem with being a vegetarian due to ethical reasons is where would you draw the line? I mean, modern medicine would be nothing like what it is today had we not infected countless animals with diseases and subsequently killed them, so on that basis would you reject the majority of modern medicine too? After all, you would be supporting companies who continue to perform these procedures on animals.

(Original post by StUdEnTIGCSE)
Anyway they are going to die, sometimes by more inhumane ways. By the rank we have on earth we can kill animals and eat them but we should do it with animal welfare as a concern. That's why I eat only halaal meat .
Animals that we eat has a nervous system, but aren't we doing a service to mother nature? The mass would just rot on earth.

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http://www.newscientist.com/article/...slaughter.html

If you're eating halaal meat out of concern for the animal and not religious reasons then I would reconsider.

(Original post by Too Many Commas)
Bull****. Meat is the best source for densely packed nutrients by FAR, and without hunting animals the human brain wouldn't have developed fast enough.

If you are starving in the wilderness, eating meat is literally the safest, most reliable way to get energy- randomly grabbing plants and attempting to eat them would be far more likely to lead to your death, since human beings lack the mechanisms to figure out just by sight, touch, smell, etc, what plants are safe and what may be poisonous.

You eat nothing but grain and plants out in the wild, you're going to die pretty quickly unless you have a bloody wilderness handbook to help you identify poisonous things.

OP, you contradict yourself so much it's ridiculous. You claim animals are more intelligent and more worth saving than humans, and yet then make the distinction here that "humans can think, unlike lions".

And your taking of medicine IS relevant to the debate, never mind your consumption of animal products like eggs and milk (since you are not a vegan, but a vegetarian) and even FISH- don't fish have thoughts and emotions and horrific experiences, too? Or do they not matter, since they aren't cute and fluffy like mice and rabbits and so you don't have to think about them?

Face it. We need animal testing and farming and such in order to continue as a species. We NEED to find solutions to diseases that cause us disproportionate amounts of suffering- because, unlike animals, humans UNDERSTAND mortality as they suffer whatever physical and mental ailments that befall them. Animals do not understand that they can die, while for humans it is a constant lingering level of consciousness. Never mind that balance is what is best for food production everywhere- if everyone was a vegetarian, demand for non-meat products would be sky high, just like how if everyone chose to eat meat then there wouldn't be enough to go around.

You've been spending too much time absorbing PETA propaganda.


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Well there will be more than enough to go around when you consider the amount of non-meat products which will be saved not having to raise the farm animals on. This link makes a good point on this matter.
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Jessica_Mae
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#165
(Original post by StUdEnTIGCSE)
Anyway they are going to die, sometimes by more inhumane ways. By the rank we have on earth we can kill animals and eat them but we should do it with animal welfare as a concern. That's why I eat only halaal meat .
Animals that we eat has a nervous system, but aren't we doing a service to mother nature? The mass would just rot on earth.

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So just becuase they will die eventually, it gives humans the right to kill them when they desire to fill their appetite, stuff the fact animals have just as much right to live as humans :/
Halal meat? Kill with a very, very sharp knife all the vessels in the neck are severed and that means there's no blood going to the brain and the animal loses consciousness very rapidly and dies soon after that."
Halal meat is absolutely brutal and sick!

No I wouldn't say you were doing a service to mother nature, I don't think murdering is any service, and the excuse of the mass would rot is pretty lame!
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ArtGoblin
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(Original post by Gwilym101)
Name:  cow_products.jpg
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This may make you think.
A vegan is someone who avoids animal products as far as possible. In the society we live in, it is not possible to live without ever having to use something that contains animal products because the majority of people don't think that animals deserve moral consideration. As that picture shows, sometimes there is no alternative, and unless we want to live in a vegan commune, we sometimes have to compromise. However, if the majority of the population was vegan, there would be ways around using animal products in those items because there would be a demand for them. The idea that veganism is pointless because we have to come into contact with animal products in modern society is nonsense. We are trying to make the change by avoiding using animals in every way we can, then hopefully one day replacements for those things will be available.
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RoyalBlue7
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#167
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#167
(Original post by Jessica_Mae)
So just becuase they will die eventually, it gives humans the right to kill them when they desire to fill their appetite, stuff the fact animals have just as much right to live as humans :/
Halal meat? Kill with a very, very sharp knife all the vessels in the neck are severed and that means there's no blood going to the brain and the animal loses consciousness very rapidly and dies soon after that."
Halal meat is absolutely brutal and sick!

No I wouldn't say you were doing a service to mother nature, I don't think murdering is any service, and the excuse of the mass would rot is pretty lame!
Do your homework.
Study this and then try arguing.
http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halal.htm

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Juncture
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(Original post by Jessica_Mae)
That wouldn't be natural at all, you have the abilty to think, decide and eat other foods... animals have to hunt each other down, how ever disgusting and cruel it is, that is nature.
There is a big distinction between the situation when a lion eats meat, and the situation when a human eats meat. Lions can not decide to live on grain and vegetables. A lion must eat meat or die. A vegetarian diet for humans, on the other hand, is actually healthier than one which includes meat. Whereas lions must eat meat to survive, humans eat meat simply for the pleasure of tasting meat!!!
But earlier you were telling us animals were just as intelligent as humans and that's why they should be treated the same. How come all of a sudden these animals (that are just as intelligent and capable of thought as us according to you) can't decide what they eat?
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ninuzu
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I get frustrated with the whole animal rights idea. I know someone that works at an animal research centre, and honestly, the animals there are better looked after than ANY animal in the wild, and in actual fact it has higher hygiene ratings than most houses with pets!! The animals are kept at exactly the right temperature and conditions, fed good food and exercise regularly. And even after the animals have been used for testing, the majority of animals go to peoples homes as pets. But the general consensus is that animal test labs are seen as cruel. They're really not as bad as some make them out to be!
Also, this is brilliant. There was an animal rights protest, where some people built a hole in the ground and refused to come out. When they eventually did, an elderly woman immediately pulled out an inhaler, which had been tested at the site in which she was protesting against!
Also, a question to vegans: If you were deeply ill, would you take medicine? Even though you may say "no", odds are that you WOULD TAKE MEDICINE. By law, medicines MUST BE TESTED. So doesn't this completely obliterate your argument that you refuse to eat meat because of cruelty??
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RoyalBlue7
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#170
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And for meat to be halal

You shouldn't kill in front of the other animals
You should avoid showing the knife

Minimum damage.

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Birkenhead
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(Original post by ArtGoblin)
x
What do you find morally compromising about using products from animals?
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Santorum
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I eat meat because there isn't an equal substitute in terms of nutritional value, tofu or veggie meals are garbage and don't measure up. I'm not happy with the cruel ways they get treated but I don't care enough to stop eating them, as far as product testing goes if I had my way humans would be used as the results would be more reliable...
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Jessica_Mae
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#173
(Original post by Too Many Commas)
Bull****. Meat is the best source for densely packed nutrients by FAR, and without hunting animals the human brain wouldn't have developed fast enough.

If you are starving in the wilderness, eating meat is literally the safest, most reliable way to get energy- randomly grabbing plants and attempting to eat them would be far more likely to lead to your death, since human beings lack the mechanisms to figure out just by sight, touch, smell, etc, what plants are safe and what may be poisonous.

You eat nothing but grain and plants out in the wild, you're going to die pretty quickly unless you have a bloody wilderness handbook to help you identify poisonous things.

OP, you contradict yourself so much it's ridiculous. You claim animals are more intelligent and more worth saving than humans, and yet then make the distinction here that "humans can think, unlike lions".

And your taking of medicine IS relevant to the debate, never mind your consumption of animal products like eggs and milk (since you are not a vegan, but a vegetarian) and even FISH- don't fish have thoughts and emotions and horrific experiences, too? Or do they not matter, since they aren't cute and fluffy like mice and rabbits and so you don't have to think about them?

Face it. We need animal testing and farming and such in order to continue as a species. We NEED to find solutions to diseases that cause us disproportionate amounts of suffering- because, unlike animals, humans UNDERSTAND mortality as they suffer whatever physical and mental ailments that befall them. Animals do not understand that they can die, while for humans it is a constant lingering level of consciousness. Never mind that balance is what is best for food production everywhere- if everyone was a vegetarian, demand for non-meat products would be sky high, just like how if everyone chose to eat meat then there wouldn't be enough to go around.

You've been spending too much time absorbing PETA propaganda.


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Firstly what I mean about animals being more intelligent than humans is they can do thingds humans can't;
Without mechanical aid, humans can't jump 1000 times their own height (flea)

Without machines, humans can't lift and move weights 20,000 times heavier than themselves (ant)

Humans can only detect within 60 degrees of accuracy, where a sound is coming from; dogs can detect to within 5 degrees.

Humans can't run at 60km/h (several animals can, not to mention birds)

Humans don't see in the dark or use echolocation (bats, snakes, other animals)

Humans can't hold their breath underwater for several hours (whales)

The list is huge. We don't even have the exclusivity of inventing and using tools any more.

As for your statement about meat is healthier, crap!

Even though nutritionists seem to disagree on many topics, all agree that plant-eaters and fish-eaters tend to live longer and healthier lives than do animal eaters. In every way, the brocolli-munchers tend to be healthier than the beef-eaters:
  • Vegetarians have a lower incidence of cancer, especially colon, stomach, mouth, esophagus, lung, prostate, bladder, and breast cancers. The protection against intestinal cancers is probably due to the fiber in a plant-based diet. In fact, vegetarians have a lower incidence of nearly all intestinal diseases and discomforts, especially constipation and diverticulosis. The phytonutrients in plant foods, especially antioxidants, flavanoids, and carotenoids, may also contribute to protection against cancer.
  • Plant food is better for your heart, since it is low in cholesterol and saturated fat, and high in fiber. Vegetarians have a lower incidence of cardiovascular disease, namely heart attacks and stroke. A study of 25,000 Seventh-Day Adventists showed that these vegetarians had one-third the risk of dying from cardiovascular disease than a comparable meat-eating population. Another study showed that death from cardiovascular disease was fifty percent less in vegetarians. These statistics may be the result of more than just diet; vegetarians tend to have healthier overall lifestyles.
  • Plant eaters are much less likely to get diabetes than animal eaters.
  • Vegetarians tend to see better.
  • An eye disease called macular degeneration, which is deterioration of the retina leading to blindness, occurs less frequently in vegetarians.
  • Vegetarians tend to be leaner than meat eaters, even those who skin their chicken and trim the fat off their steak; and, in general, leaner persons tend to be healthier. Being lean does not mean being skinny. It means having a low percentage of body fat. Muscular weight-lifters tend to be lean, though no one would call them skinny. You don't have to "beef up" at the dinner table to make muscle. Even the U.S. Department of Agriculture's dietary guidelines recommend eating more vegetables and grains and less meat, despite pressure from the politically-connected meat industry to promote meat

I don't think that is contradicting, it's common sense!
Animals in particular ways are more intelligent. My statement about lions was that they don't think about what they are going to eat, hunting to them is natural!!!

As for you saying about fish, your right! Fish do have thoughts, emotions and experience horrific things. Isn't a vegetarian someone who doesn't eat to animals? Isn't fish a living thing? Yes that's why I DON'T eat fish!!! How could I complain about animal cruelty then eat a fish?

Yes that's true, but just becuase animals don't know they are going to die, that doesn't justify anything. You think the pain, suffering and torture they go though is in any way acceptable?

As for the statement about being stranded I know for a fact I couldn't kill an animal, firstly becuase I don't have the heart or guts to kill an animal and secondly I wouldn't know how to, Oh and thirdly there is a big possibilty I could be allergic to meat as I have never ever consumed it! So that would kill me anyway.
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RoyalBlue7
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#174
(Original post by coconut2456)
The problem with being a vegetarian due to ethical reasons is where would you draw the line? I mean, modern medicine would be nothing like what it is today had we not infected countless animals with diseases and subsequently killed them, so on that basis would you reject the majority of modern medicine too? After all, you would be supporting companies who continue to perform these procedures on animals.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/...slaughter.html

If you're eating halaal meat out of concern for the animal and not religious reasons then I would reconsider.


Well there will be more than enough to go around when you consider the amount of non-meat products which will be saved not having to raise the farm animals on. This link makes a good point on this matter.
Concerning the halaal method :

You should have to admit that when the halaal method was "introduced " it was the best method for animal welfare. Look at the other traditions about not killing in front of other animals, not showing the knife, and in some Islamic schools of thought even covering the eyes.
And and and stunning is halaal

http://www.organic-halal-meat.com/article/stunning.php
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Birkenhead
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(Original post by ChocoCoatedLemons)
I may believe that killing people is immoral. I may also believe a war for the greater good may be justified, even if it results in death for some people.
You originally said morality and justification aren't the same thing. Here you seem to be saying that a war can be justified morally if it attains a greater good. Not sure what distinction you were trying to draw.

Alright, I'll rephrase. I think that, because eating meat is the natural thing to do, that is what should be done. I don't believe it needs to be justified - it doesn't hurt another human being, and doesn't prevent us from continuing our species. It doesn't have to be justified. This is, of course, only my opinion. Others may feel that eating meat is somehow wrong, or is cruel, or unnecessary. But I personally feel that eating meat is the natural and normal thing to do. Not justification necessary.
Yet you seemed to try to justify it in the emboldened text, and you also earlier said it was justified by being natural (quotation in on of my last posts). In my opinion everything is either justified or unjustified when a choice is being made - in the same way, as you said, that clinical testing will result in either the benefit or detriment of humans depending on whether animals are used or not. It's a dichotomy. I'm a meat-eater by the way and really only playing devil's advocate here and challenging your earlier assertion that something can be justified by being natural. I continue to say that drawing authority from the entity which causes so much suffering in the world, much of it hampering our ability to continue as a species, which you cited as a reason to support meat-eating, seems contradictory.
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JC.
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Hmm... to my mind, if there aint meat on the plate then it isn't a propper meal.

I've got a dead chicken in the oven tonight. Well, it'd be cruel to put a live one in!
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ArtGoblin
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(Original post by ninuzu)
I get frustrated with the whole animal rights idea. I know someone that works at an animal research centre, and honestly, the animals there are better looked after than ANY animal in the wild, and in actual fact it has higher hygiene ratings than most houses with pets!! The animals are kept at exactly the right temperature and conditions, fed good food and exercise regularly. And even after the animals have been used for testing, the majority of animals go to peoples homes as pets. But the general consensus is that animal test labs are seen as cruel. They're really not as bad as some make them out to be!
Also, this is brilliant. There was an animal rights protest, where some people built a hole in the ground and refused to come out. When they eventually did, an elderly woman immediately pulled out an inhaler, which had been tested at the site in which she was protesting against!
Also, a question to vegans: If you were deeply ill, would you take medicine? Even though you may say "no", odds are that you WOULD TAKE MEDICINE. By law, medicines MUST BE TESTED. So doesn't this completely obliterate your argument that you refuse to eat meat because of cruelty??
Yes, I would. Nothing can be gained from refusing to take medicine that has already been tested. If vegans refused to take medicine that prevented them from dying, there would be virtually no vegans. Everyone would think it was a ridiculous idea, and there would be no new converts because it would seem like too big a sacrifice to make. What we want to do is prevent further testing on animals, and this can only be achieved when we are alive and well. People who don't want to give up meat or other animal products they enjoy will call us hypocrites for this, but there is no other option. We live in a world where animals exist for the use of humans so sometimes we are constrained in how free of animal products we wish to be.
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Xiomara
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(Original post by ArtGoblin)
Yes, I would. Nothing can be gained from refusing to take medicine that has already been tested. If vegans refused to take medicine that prevented them from dying, there would be virtually no vegans. Everyone would think it was a ridiculous idea, and there would be no new converts because it would seem like too big a sacrifice to make. What we want to do is prevent further testing on animals, and this can only be achieved when we are alive and well. People who don't want to give up meat or other animal products they enjoy will call us hypocrites for this, but there is no other option. We live in a world where animals exist for the use of humans so sometimes we are constrained in how free of animal products we wish to be.
Then what's to be gained from not eating meat that's already been slaughtered?

Stopping animal testing IS too big a sacrifice to make. While you might be OK with the medicines already developed for developed country diseases (i.e, allergy medicine etc.) there are millions of people out there that aren't so fortunate. It's so selfish to deny another person a possible cure to their illness because you already have one for yours.
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amholcroft
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(Original post by flyylikejetz)
My viewpoint is simply...it's the way of life.
We are all animals and there is a hierarchy in every food chain.
This is the way of life it is the balance in an ecosystem which allows for the species diversity that we have and for life to exist. It is no different a Lion hunting down an Impala/Zebra to a human eating a cow/pig there are producers, consumers... prey & predator for a reason. Besides beign a Vegan/Vegetarian deprives the body of essential nutrients such as proteins which at least more friend who is vegetarian has to take supplements for which obviously aren't as good for the body as the real thing!
first of all I just wanted to point out the irony of you having Bob Marley as an avatar and this attitude Rastas are veggie... Mon also you speak fallacies I was a vegetarian from 7 to 15, through the growth spurt and all I never took suppliments and developed just fine because I had a correct varied diet EVERY NUTRIENT IS AVAILABLE IN PLANT LIFE
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Bobifier
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(Original post by Jessica_Mae)
A few facts about animal testing, precentages and why it should be banned
Of the drugs marketed between 1976 and 1985, 52% were found to be more dangerous to humans than previously indicated by animal studies.

In 1989 a study was done to determine the carcinogenicity of fluoride. During a period of two years, daily doses of fluoride were given to about 520 rats and 520 mice. Not a single mouse was adversely affected by the fluoride, but the rats experienced health problems like cancer of the mouth and bone. This study shows how test data cannot be accurately extrapolated from one species to another.
Drugs like thalidomide, Zomax and DES were all tested on animals and judged safe but had devastating consequences for the humans who used them. More than half of the prescription drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration between 1976 and 1985 were withdrawn from the market or relabeled because of the serious side effects they had on humans. They had all been tested on animals.
These statistics are relevant due to the fact that medical technology has not advanced in the last 30 years.
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