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    (Original post by ChocoCoatedLemons)
    Why not though? If they've earned it fairly, then it should be theirs to do with what they will.
    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    Why not?

    Say I invent a product - a kind of toughened metal, let's say - that is stronger and lighter than other metals on the market. Imagine it's a runaway success and is used in everything from aircraft chassis to engine parts to railway tracks.

    If people are willing to buy it from me and I am willing to sell it to them, at a price that is mutually agreed between buyer and seller, why do I not deserve the profits of my efforts?

    It's not as if I'd employ thousands of slaves to manufacture it and distribute it for me; every man I employed would be a volunteer that was paid a salary that I offer and that he accepts. He profits too, by selling his labour.

    The buyer profits because he regards my metal as more valuable than the money in his pocket; I create value for him with my invention.

    Tell me where the immorality arises?

    At which point to I cease to deserve the profit of my invention?

    You should read my longer post on page 1.
    You've both got pretty similar opinions on this, and I'm close to agreeing with you, but not quite in my opinion, anything over a couple of billion for one individual (for instance) is simply unnecessary. I'd imagine it would be pretty hard for just one individual to spend tens of billions, no?
    The rest of this money could be spent on other people who actually need to the money - would you say it's just for someone to have so much money, they plaster their car with money? Or buy 10 of the same cars, just of different colours? Or whatever people do with their money nowadays? While, (and I know this is overused, and has probably lost most of its meaning now) there's people unable to buy any food?

    I think people should definitely be entitled to a lot of wealth if they've deserved it, but there should be some sort of limit above which it would be immoral.
    Not illegal. Just immoral.

    (I am playing devils advocate a little here btw it's an interesting thread!)
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    (Original post by Rump Steak)
    You've both got pretty similar opinions on this, and I'm close to agreeing with you, but not quite in my opinion, anything over a couple of billion for one individual (for instance) is simply unnecessary. I'd imagine it would be pretty hard for just one individual to spend tens of billions, no?
    The rest of this money could be spent on other people who actually need to the money - would you say it's just for someone to have so much money, they plaster their car with money? Or buy 10 of the same cars, just of different colours? Or whatever people do with their money nowadays? While, (and I know this is overused, and has probably lost most of its meaning now) there's people unable to buy any food?

    I think people should definitely be entitled to a lot of wealth if they've deserved it, but there should be some sort of limit above which it would be immoral.
    Not illegal. Just immoral.

    (I am playing devils advocate a little here btw it's an interesting thread!)
    The fact that it is 'unnecessary' or that it could provide X for Y others is irrelevant to me.
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    If the wealth was accumulated through the 'theft' of surplus value created by the worker then yeah it is immoral. So most wealthy people will definitely be considered immoral to me.
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    Nothing wrong with extreme wealth, the problem is more to do with how it's earned.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    How does one do that?
    How does one become successful and earn money honestly?

    Sheer hard work I'd wager.
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    (Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
    How does one become successful and earn money honestly?

    Sheer hard work I'd wager.
    I'm pretty sure a lot of the people working in factories in China for god knows how many hours in terrible conditions are putting in sheer hard work, yet I don't recall many of them becoming rich.
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    In my opinion yes
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    The fact that it is 'unnecessary' or that it could provide X for Y others is irrelevant to me.
    I guess 'immorality' is subjective then...
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    Its immoral to buy a £250,000 bottle of wine. Won't reply to people disagreeing..
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    mmm its not about morals its about responsibility. if youve got that much money, i feel that youve got a duty to help others. not necessarily donating to charity, theres a lot of stuff you can do with that much money.
    i know how hard it is to having relatively nothing (in the UK) and it just makes me wonder what people with £10 mil do with it all. stuff like nice cars and big houses is all very well, but thats only a one off payment. once bought thats it. but they still get money which can then be put into helping others.
    id do stuff like go to a community and see if theres anything that can be improved - like youth centres, care homes, struggling businesses etc - and give them a hand. buy houses in holiday areas, do them up and rent them cheap as a holiday home to disabled people/families. its not much...but rather than donating money overseas (which millions of other people do), spend a bit helping local places/charities.
    i dont know if this sounds kind of weird :/ there wasnt an anonymous option either which is kind of a bummer but oh well! haha
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    (Original post by Scumbaggio)
    I'm not sure about Bill Gates, microsoft had a monopoly on software for years.

    He'd probably still be massively wealthy if they hadn't but to say he deserves all the money he has accumulated isn't necessarily true.
    Ruben Rausing's company has a monopoly even NOW in the packaging industry. And his successors have made sure this is the case. And imho they fully deserve all the millions they reap.

    Maybe so, I am not entirely aware of his background story, but you know, seeing his continued donations/contributions from a philanthropist's point of view, it is remarkable.


    (Original post by JessicaGarlai)
    hmmmm even though they achieved a lot and worked very hard, im sure theres so many others who have worked just as hard/more hard and have only got average wealth..... you have to admit they were extremely lucky
    Honestly.... ANYONE can work hard. But it takes intuitive thinking and a whole lot of other qualities (including luck) to make it big.

    I mean to say this in a humble way, I work hard. And realistically, there is no way in hell can i be a millionaire if I continue the way I'm going.




    (Original post by Rump Steak)
    But does any individual actually deserve TENS of BILLIONS of pounds?? I don't think so - no matter what they've done...

    Okay. THIS is very stupid. You deserve every bit of it, if you have worked for it or earned it.

    I can see my loopholes in my statement. I just dont have the time to explain it all the way. =P

    But ill try to reply if you ever bother to reply (Y)
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    (Original post by RedArrow)
    Okay. THIS is very stupid. You deserve every bit of it, if you have worked for it or earned it.

    I can see my loopholes in my statement. I just dont have the time to explain it all the way. =P

    But ill try to reply if you ever bother to reply (Y)
    You don't need to explain why you think it I completely understand your point of view. And besides, what I'm isn't 100% my opinion - like I said somewhere before, I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit too.

    I'm saying that to have that much money is immoral.
    Because you don't need, and will never use, most of it.
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    I was having a conversation totally unrelated to this about the culture of a forum for a open source computer. Here what happens is people give their time to make software and don't really get much of a monetary reward but the do achieve esteem and status within the group. Esteem and status that is given gladly because group members want these people to go on making software. It's like a little society without money. I find it interesting because it isn't a result of some economist or political thinker coming up with some big idea, its simply people thrown together and behaving as people do. In communism people are of equal status and in capitalism some people starve while others buy man made sand islands in Dubai. But if you lived in a world where material didn't exist, such as the internet, you'd just end up with great productive minds motivated by the esteem of others in a way that you don't get in communism and you wouldn't have poverty because stuff would be free. So as technology becomes more immersive I think there'll be a shift away from a focus on material things to a focus on the electronic. It's already happening to a degree. Consider the amount of cash you'd have had to spend on cds in order to listen to the amount of music you now get free on youtube. Looking forward imagine the possibilities within a virtual reality internet.

    You don't actually need a newspaper in order to influence people anymore. You don't need to find a publisher for a book. All you need is a website that people read for the same reason they might read a newspaper. So both the focus on the material and the power that material brings is being, and will be further eroded by the virtual world which will become a povertyless hugely unequal society not because people are being oppressed but because the masses wish to encourage those who do things they like.

    Think of how much richer we all are now than before the internet. How big is your virtual bookcase? You just saved 100's on a decent set of encyclopedias and yet people still write your new virtual encyclopedias and are held in high regard for doing so. This only applies to people who own enough materially to have free time and computers but as that group envelopes more population it'll become more universal.

    You can even see the existing hegemony resisting this paradigm shift. My example is of a community around an open source computer which the likes of apple don't produce because they prefer the closed source "we produce, you consume" to people producing for each other within moneyless virtual economies of esteem in the manner I describe above.
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    If someone collects things and never throws them away they are called hoarders and society looks down on people like that. If a person has an obsession with newspapers and fills their house collecting them people may call them crazy but a person who collects and keeps way more money than they need to live continuously they are put on the cover of the most popular magazines and called great people. Not only are people living in poverty around the world but in their own countries and yet nothing is really done to help this global crisis.

    Oxfam reported that the income of 100 of the world's richest billionaires in 2012 (out of approximately 6 billion people living on this planet) could have eradicated extreme poverty 4 times over http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pr...rty-four-times. Oxfam also stated that "extreme wealth and income is unethical, economically inefficient, politically corrosive, socially divisive and environmentally destructive." These billionaires could have ended world poverty and still have loads of money left over for their frivolities.

    Now I'm not attacking all those extremely wealthy people. Bill Gates has donated millions of dollars to charity and saved so many lives. If only they were all like him. I don't think that all the extremely wealthy people are bad people its just that they are not exposed to poverty, hunger and sickness and are not fully aware of it on a daily basis so they put these things at the back of their minds for later. But that should no longer be a valid excuse. Humanity needs to grow up and start taking things in a new direction. What we need is world peace and equality. But I doubt I will ever see this in my lifetime.

 
 
 
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