Muslim students at Queen Mary calling for a ‘right to pray’ Watch

Carraghersgroins
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(Original post by 419)
Show me evidence that playing instruments enhances and develops talents. Please show me the correlation.

Two can okay thus game. Them playing music actually causes me a great deal if discomfort because well, I can't turn my ears off. So surely on that basis and given that it has no relevance to the uni, music room should be made redundant. Does Muslim praying discomfort you - actual discomfort not one where you find it discomforting because you don't agree with it.

I see no reasonable for them to refuse them access if it's free. The room is meant to be used by students for a plethora of reason. Would you feel the same if they refused the atethist club access?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...-brainier.html

http://theinnovativeeducator.blogspo...y-musical.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ge-skills.html
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PopaPork
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(Original post by MuslimahRuwayda)
Well that's your opinion on whether it exist or not and whether it enhances your talents but why can't Muslims make use of the area by praying if no one is occupying it?
Because this isn't the case

do you agree that if they allow one society to book the room they must allow all societies to book the room.
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PopaPork
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“Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without.”

― Confucius
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KimKallstrom
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(Original post by PopaPork)
“Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without.”

― Confucius
Confucius? That's not a Muslim name.

Disregarded.
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User1310602
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(Original post by 419)
Show me evidence that playing instruments enhances and develops talents. Please show me the correlation.

Two can okay thus game. Them playing music actually causes me a great deal if discomfort because well, I can't turn my ears off. So surely on that basis and given that it has no relevance to the uni, music room should be made redundant. Does Muslim praying discomfort you - actual discomfort not one where you find it discomforting because you don't agree with it.

I see no reasonable for them to refuse them access if it's free. The room is meant to be used by students for a plethora of reason. Would you feel the same if they refused the atethist club access?
Posted from TSR Mobile
If you do your research you can see the great deal of benefits playing an instrument brings to an individual. It enhances your memory, coordination, mathematical skills, comprehension skills, sharpens concentration etc. Yes praying has practical benefits too BUT praying is an obligation for Muslims, it’s coercive and it’s the same ritual, it does not progress and in this sense it is not as beneficial as learning an instrument. Learning an instrument is usually completely voluntary and there is no limit to the compositions you can create. Praying inthe Muslim sense does not embody the same amount of freedom.
I openly admit that I detest Islam. I detest all religions. Even though I can't stand the idea of obligatory prays that Islam embodies I will literally fight to the death to defend your right to part take in it if I have to. I will always support freedom of religion. BUT in this case it is not about defending this right. The issue is not that Muslims at QM are getting arrested for praying. The issue is that there is an inconvenience for Muslims. This is not enough to demand that the university allow access to the hall. I fail to see how the university is OBLIGED to provide.
I believe that the university has the right to deny any student society access to space if they wish to use it for non-educational purposes.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Well guess what the ISOC and most of the Muslims at QM feel its not justified.
"Extreme", such issues like this are already forcing isolation of the Muslims at QM, not to forget creating a bad relationship.

UCL Isoc didn't do such a thing................if you actually read the story, it was IERA an external organisation which hired the venue. www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/15/ucl-bans-islamic-group-over-segregation

And "segregation of gender" isn't extreme, its actually a normal practice within Islam, as such all ISOC's do so and the same rules don't apply to them because their lectures aren't "public" and are for isoc people.
Would that not be inconvenient for the university? Surely the university would not accept any society using the hall for WHATEVER non-educational purpose.
Well Muslim students are able to attend their lecture instead of their prayers or just pray anywhere else onsite or outside or rush to the mosque and back. Not having access to the hall does not mean that Muslim students will have to miss lectures. Glad to know the lecturers care so much. So during Ramadan will you expect them to be kind and start lectures late?
Mosques are not exclusive to Muslims; even atheists can attend if they want to, right? Actually most mosques almost always ask the public attending for donations.
‘Feeling’ something is not justified does not make it so. The list of speakers with extremist views allowed to speak at university Islamic societies throughout the UK is deeply worrying. Such societies can be a breeding ground for extremism and need to be kept inline.
http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/1744/extremism_on_campus_a_lesson_in_ denial
So segregating men and women is not extreme and just a normal practice? Just like cutting off a thieves hand eh? If you’re saying Isoc lectures can be segregated because they are not public events then you’re essentially saying that an Isoc can enforce Shariah Law in its meetings.
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419
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IQ is a terrible way of measuring intelligence.
Let me quote you a telegraph article that says so http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...elligence.html

Great source here fella.

This isn't a definite coorelation. The article makes great pain to say that it's a possibility. Does the research compare to student who didn't play music?
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(Original post by PopaPork)
“Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without.”

― Confucius
Too right, no one would deny this and I certaintly won't. I listen to a lot more music, probably than you do- my sig shows this- and it just hit me in ways few other things do. Music is important part of life and so are other things such as sport- and in the main, sports is mainly student ran with many having to pay **** loads to play. That's why I haven't made an issue out of people playing in the music room and either move somewhere else or put my headphones on and listen to my musics. But my point still remain, its use isn't obsolete to the uni as it isn't necessarily a part of education given that the uni doesn't do music.
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419
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
If you do your research you can see the great deal of benefits playing an instrument brings to an individual. It enhances your memory, coordination, mathematical skills, comprehension skills, sharpens concentration etc. Yes praying has practical benefits too BUT praying is an obligation for Muslims, it’s coercive and it’s the same ritual, it does not progress and in this sense it is not as beneficial as learning an instrument. Learning an instrument is usually completely voluntary and there is no limit to the compositions you can create. Praying inthe Muslim sense does not embody the same amount of freedom.
I openly admit that I detest Islam. I detest all religions. Even though I can't stand the idea of obligatory prays that Islam embodies I will literally fight to the death to defend your right to part take in it if I have to. I will always support freedom of religion. BUT in this case it is not about defending this right. The issue is not that Muslims at QM are getting arrested for praying. The issue is that there is an inconvenience for Muslims. This is not enough to demand that the university allow access to the hall. I fail to see how the university is OBLIGED to provide.
I believe that the university has the right to deny any student society access to space if they wish to use it for non-educational purposes.
I can't be asked to go more into this got an exam next week and need to stop passing up revision. All the studies done, the ones I've came across at least, have been limited to just laboratory setting done by people who have vested interest. There vast majority of highly intellectual people out there that play an instrument are in the minutiae.

Anyways, that's digressing university shouldn't hold withhold access to any students society access to a free room for whatever purposes as long as they don't harm the room and leave it in a good state. There's no good reason to do so. It's really *****sh and just been simply despotic.

“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

Martin Niemolle
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Would that not be inconvenient for the university? Surely the university would not accept any society using the hall for WHATEVER non-educational purpose.

Actually they can and they do.......provided a detailed plan is submitted especially for larger rooms/halls. Nor does it make it inconvenient as previously stated many times before that the uni should they need anything get priority.

Well Muslim students are able to attend their lecture instead of their prayers or just pray anywhere else onsite or outside or rush to the mosque and back. Not having access to the hall does not mean that Muslim students will have to miss lectures. Glad to know the lecturers care so much. So during Ramadan will you expect them to be kind and start lectures late?

Wow you make it seem like its so easy and such an easy choice :rolleyes:

I can't believe you chat so much non-sense :rolleyes:


Mosques are not exclusive to Muslims; even atheists can attend if they want to, right? Actually most mosques almost always ask the public attending for donations.

The purpose of the mosque is a place to worship Allah, etc
To compare a university where students pay to a Mosque which is run by donations is simply silly.


‘Feeling’ something is not justified does not make it so. The list of speakers with extremist views allowed to speak at university Islamic societies throughout the UK is deeply worrying. Such societies can be a breeding ground for extremism and need to be kept inline.

hahaha thats really funny............"extremist" according to whom exactly, people who don't agree with their views. Despite the views being in line with Islam.


http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/1744/extremism_on_campus_a_lesson_in_ denial
So segregating men and women is not extreme and just a normal practice? Just like cutting off a thieves hand eh? If you’re saying Isoc lectures can be segregated because they are not public events then you’re essentially saying that an Isoc can enforce Shariah Law in its meetings.
Yeah like "studentrights" isn't bias :rolleyes: they are pretty much the henry jackson society, a lot of people have deserted them after that report http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3395180.html

They do whatever they want within their rights........ISOC is a society which runs accordingly to Islam, segregation is a part of that, otherwise it's not a ISOC if its not following the rules now is it :rolleyes:
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(Original post by 419)
I can't be asked to go more into this got an exam next week and need to stop passing up revision. All the studies done, the ones I've came across at least, have been limited to just laboratory setting done by people who have vested interest. There vast majority of highly intellectual people out there that play an instrument are in the minutiae.

Anyways, that's digressing university shouldn't hold withhold access to any students society access to a free room for whatever purposes as long as they don't harm the room and leave it in a good state. There's no good reason to do so. It's really *****sh and just been simply despotic.

“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

Martin Niemolle
How can you say that there is no solid empirical link between playing an instrument and wellbeing yet argue that PRAYING is good for you? What exactly is exceptional about praying that makes this so? I’d have to disagree. Many of the most intelligent people out there play instruments. A vast majority of Oxbridge applicants have high musical abilities. There is wide scientific consensus that playing an instrument develops cognitive abilities.
So you’re saying the university shouldn’t with hold the room from societies wishing to use it for WHATEVER non educational purpose at all? Can a student society book it for an orgy as long as they leave it in a good state and don’t harm the room? I mean they could very well argue that it’s for the students’ wellbeing.
Your quote is grossly irrelevant in relation to this topic. So just because a university has denied Muslims the chance to use a room they’re all of a sudden prosecuting and exterminating Muslims are they?
A more relevant quote would be this:
“To whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut,has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn”.Kahlil Gibran
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rickfloss
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surely if you do it outside, allah can hear you better?
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Yeah like "studentrights" isn't bias :rolleyes: they are pretty much the henry jackson society, a lot of people have deserted them after that report http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3395180.html

They do whatever they want within their rights........ISOC is a society which runs accordingly to Islam, segregation is a part of that, otherwise it's not a ISOC if its not following the rules now is it :rolleyes:
Ok, how about a student society asking to use the hall for a well-organised club night or sporting event? Will QM HAVE to comply? Can educational facilities be reduced to merely serving non-educational demands of students in this way?
I am not comparing a mosque to a university. I am simply asking you how you would feel if a religious institution was forced to comply to the secular needs of the public? It’s just as worse DEMANDING a secular institution to cater for religious needs.
Off course these views are inline with Islam. Islam is extreme and so are these views. Islam is the anti-thesis of freedom and equality. Have you read the Quran? Have you read the Hadith’s? This is not coming from a white middle class atheist, I’m from a fully Muslim background and I was a devote Muslim myself until recently. I have seen the situation from the inside. I am in a good position to state such views on Islam.
I wonder why as soon as a group or individual speaks out against Islam they’re automatically dubbed ‘bias’. Answer me this: Should Isoc’s be free to enforce Shariah Law in their meetings (based in UK universities) if only Muslims attend?
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Ok, how about a student society asking to use the hall for a well-organised club night or sporting event? Will QM HAVE to comply? Can educational facilities be reduced to merely serving non-educational demands of students in this way?

Club night, meaning it won't affect the Isoc as it would happen at night, again it won't happen as its not within the hours of room bookings..........sporting events won't happen due to health and safety.
They already do though, there are loads of lecture rooms which are booked out by societies for non-educational purposes, even to play games on the projectors.


I am not comparing a mosque to a university. I am simply asking you how you would feel if a religious institution was forced to comply to the secular needs of the public? It’s just as worse DEMANDING a secular institution to cater for religious needs.

Yes you are comparing the two...........you just said it again, comparing to very different things. Comparing a place of worship and comparing a public institution which is funded by students who demand something.

Off course these views are inline with Islam. Islam is extreme and so are these views. Islam is the anti-thesis of freedom and inequality. Have you read the Quran? Have you read the Hadith’s? This is not coming from a white middle class atheist, I’m from a fully Muslim background and I was a devote Muslim myself until recently. I have seen the situation from the inside. I am in a good position to state such views on Islam.

Islam isn't extreme.........simply a different perspective on how to do things.
" from a fully Muslim background " so what if you are, means jack to me.


I wonder why as soon as a group or individual speaks out against Islam they’re automatically dubbed ‘bias’. Answer me this: Should Isoc’s be free to enforce Shariah Law in their meetings (based in UK universities) if only Muslims attend?

ISOC's can do whatever they want within their groups provided they don't break any rules of the SU and university.


And guess what, the campaign is working..........

" The university has verbally agreed that ISoc ought to be allowed to book either The Great Hall or The Octagon when either is vacant, and a timetable is currently being drawn up. "
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
ISOC's can do whatever they want within their groups provided they don't break any rules of the SU and university.


And guess what, the campaign is working..........
Well if a clubbing event or even just a really wild party is asked to be held during the hours it’s available should the university comply? Playing games on the projectors in the hall of a Russell Group university seems slightly degrading if you ask me. I’d certainly not apply to a university that allowed its student to do this. At my institution, if halls are not in use they are locked up from student access. Student societies are only allowed access if they wish to present a lecture for the public.
I’m not comparing the two. It’s merely a hypothetical example that I used to capture the nature of the emotions involved in this case. People often need such examples if they are to see anything from someone else’s viewpoint. How would you feel IF non-Muslims demanded a Mosque to cater for secular needs?
I know there are ‘different perspectives’ out there apart from liberal secularism. There are several other religions, political creeds, world views etc. I think Islam is certainly one of the most extreme. It is by nature a fundamental and dogmatic religion because the Quran cannot be altered in the face ofchanging circumstances and is seen as the sovereign word of God.

So Isoc has managed to FORCE a university in the United Kingdom in EAST LONDON to allow it to use a PUBLIC hall for communal prayers. What’s on the Isoc’s agenda next? Asking to use another hall for female Muslim students?
Yes, ‘provided they don’t break any rules of the SU and university’. I think segregating men and women may breach these rules, as would most Sharia Laws.

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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
How can you say that there is no solid empirical link between playing an instrument and wellbeing yet argue that PRAYING is good for you? What exactly is exceptional about praying that makes this so? I’d have to disagree. Many of the most intelligent people out there play instruments. A vast majority of Oxbridge applicants have high musical abilities. There is wide scientific consensus that playing an instrument develops cognitive abilities.
So you’re saying the university shouldn’t with hold the room from societies wishing to use it for WHATEVER non educational purpose at all? Can a student society book it for an orgy as long as they leave it in a good state and don’t harm the room? I mean they could very well argue that it’s for the students’ wellbeing.
Your quote is grossly irrelevant in relation to this topic. So just because a university has denied Muslims the chance to use a room they’re all of a sudden prosecuting and exterminating Muslims are they?
A more relevant quote would be this:
“To whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut,has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn”.Kahlil Gibran
Going to keep going in circles with you. Where have I said that music is not good for you? I brought it up as an example to show it is something that not everyone needs/ cater to a very insignificant number of student and feel the room could be used for something else that is more productive to students education blah blah blah. Basically, I brought it up an example to show that people find solace, peace in something that doesn't make sense to others. Trust me, it isn't there to improve their education. It's their for social reason. If it's use was for educational purposes, why isn't it part of the curriculum? Also, who they **** are you to decide for people what they think is good or not. Anyone can find good/ bad in a lot of things. As long as it's not harming anyone/ anything what's it to you?

Also, stop putting words in my mouth. Where did I say they are sudden prosecuting and exterminating Muslims or even suggested that? I've made great pain to not accuse of them of this and made sure that my post doesn't accuse them of it. Like others, you fail to see the picture here and twisting the argument towards islam bashing.

My issue here is the uni is seemingly lying to student that a room is been used when it's free. It's got nothing to do with muslims. I couldn't care if it was jews, athetist, whatever, if the room is free, it should be available to them. It's peculiar, stinks and downright wrong for the uni to be acting this way as LONG as the room is free. Why they need to change the arrangement from previous years is weird. That's why the argument of "them muslims always asking for special treatment" is void here.

Also, the orgy example is just :facepalm2: Why do people feel the need to come up with the most extreme example? It's like the little kid that thinks shouting works the best. Pathetic really. But, at least you've grasp the concept that uni should make it open to students for many things as long as it is legal and cause no damages to the building- unfortunately for you, an orgy in a public building would be illegal and also increases the possibility of infections spreading. FYI, there have been parties held in lectures room. So, yes, let them do it, no argument here. I've hosted one :ahee: Didn't even book it #badass. And they were cool with it as long as we cleaned it. Lecure rooms aren't solely for education. University isn't solely for education.

The Oxbridge example also shows why the music studies are nothing other than a glorified upper class supercilious attitude to make those of lower echelon feel insignificant. All this studies then to cater towards equipment such as violin, piano, guitar- you know the equipment of choice of the upper class and make lower class people feel less significant. That's why video games- something that has equal cognitive advantages as playing music only ever gets negative press. Oxybrige acceptance =/= intelligence unless you believe in eugenic. But this is digressing and another debate.

Honestly, I really don't know why I'm bothered replying to someone as narrow minded as you, it seems like you've blamed Islam for your shortcoming in life or whatever and just want to attack anything about it as you conversion has suddenly liberated you- not that there aren't many liberated muslims out there. I don't know why you feel the need to bring it up. One can only assume you're bringing it up because you feel the student are asking special treatment. They are not. They aren't asking the uni to build them a mosque or make the room available to them forever. They want the old arrangement they had because the reason for cancelling the arrangement has been questioned. I'm a broken record.

Great quote btw but not relevant here. You could probably take some lesson from it and not alienate people you disagree with. Shows that all you're about is bashing islam, this thread has nothing to do with religion. Please grasp that.
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
ISOC's can do whatever they want within their groups provided they don't break any rules of the SU and university.


And guess what, the campaign is working..........
Brilliant news. Shows that there weren't any reasonable reason to not let them use the room in the first place.
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Well if a clubbing event or even just a really wild party is asked to be held during the hours it’s available should the university comply? Playing games on the projectors in the hall of a Russell Group university seems slightly degrading if you ask me. I’d certainly not apply to a university that allowed its student to do this. At my institution, if halls are not in use they are locked up from student access. Student societies are only allowed access if they wish to present a lecture for the public.

They can provided ít met health and safety and again first come, first serve....but highly unlikely.
Well it happens, their are Gaming societies you know :rolleyes:
Haha I doubt it, every society at every university I have been to allow them to book as long as they meet their rules, which includes gaming on projectors, having food, etc


I’m not comparing the two. It’s merely a hypothetical example that I used to capture the nature of the emotions involved in this case. People often need such examples if they are to see anything from someone else’s viewpoint. How would you feel IF non-Muslims demanded a Mosque to cater for secular needs?

Hypothetical example..........guess what you are comparing whether the mosque would do the same as the uni :rolleyes:
You are comparíng to two wídely dífferent thíngs.


I know there are ‘different perspectives’ out there apart from liberal secularism. There are several other religions, political creeds, world views etc. I think Islam is certainly one of the most extreme. It is by nature a fundamental and dogmatic religion because the Quran cannot be altered in the face ofchanging circumstances and is seen as the sovereign word of God.

Well obviously........if you alter it, guess what its not the religion of God is it, why would any follow a belief which you can change to whatever suits your need, that view is stupid.


So Isoc has managed to FORCE a university in the United Kingdom in EAST LONDON to allow it to use a PUBLIC hall for communal prayers. What’s on the Isoc’s agenda next? Asking to use another hall for female Muslim students?
Yes, ‘provided they don’t break any rules of the SU and university’. I think segregating men and women may breach these rules, as would most Sharia Laws.

:rofl: So it went from "they have a right to campaign" to they managed to "force" :facepalm:

What is the point of any campaign or protest :rolleyes: To have their voices heard........the uni recognised there was clearly inadequate space for friday prayers.

Stop saying "Public"......the halls aren't open to anyone unless its booked out, and society is more than welcome to do so.
Segregation doesn't as its a rule of the society.
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
The society has requested to hold prayers in a lecture theatre on Fridays
That is a totally inappropriate request. I do not want to see an institution of higher learning turning itself into a house of worship.

There is already an established prayer room and there are several mosques near the university that the students can attend if there is insufficient space in the prayer room. I think it is an inappropriate and unjustified campaign by the QM Islamic Society.What’s your view on this call for a ‘right to pray’?
It's always a demand with these people. Not a request for dialogue, but an order to be obeyed. These people come across as deeply insecure and in the thrall of a false man-made belief system. I can tolerate its existence, I won't tolerate these bounders taking over a secular establishment for their own convenience, particularly as this convenience relates to paying homage to a non-existent sky dictator.
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Stop saying "Public"......the halls aren't open to anyone unless its booked out, and society is more than welcome to do so.
The clear difference being that any soc might use the lecture theatre for a one-off event, whereas the Islam SOC is demanding it be turned over to them in perpetuity. It's like inviting someone to take a slice of cake and they pick up the whole darn thing and walk off.
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