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What percentage of blame, if at all any, rests with the victim during rape? Watch

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I think you're referring to the case R v Bree. The guy was convicted of raping the girl, when effectively she couldn't remember anything (her case was that she wouldn't have consented if she had been sober), and his contention was that it was consensual. The trial judge scandalously directed the jury that if she was drunk she could not consent.

    Only in the Court of Appeal was this miscarriage of justice overturned, and the justices ruled that a drunk person can consent to sex, and as you say; only if they are essentially paralytic and unresponsive would they be considered unable to render consent.
    Can't recall the case name but that does sound about right. So many jury misdirections in Criminal cases it's almost worrying
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    Firstly, women rape as well.
    Under English law a woman cannot rape. Rape is penetrating another's mouth, anus or vagina with your penis, without their consent. Women do not have penises, therefore they cannot rape.

    But I agree they can sexually assault men, and it is insulting to say that boys need to be taught not to rape
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    Yes, I know women rape as well, thanks.

    You teach your sons respect towards women, even though history and media actively work against it. I would start by educating them about misogyny, the difference between pornography and reality and how not to treat women like a bag of warm flesh.

    Also, how are people supposed to change/grow up/realise what is wrong and what is right if nobody is there to actually tell them what what is wrong and what is right?

    Some people just don't put murder, criminality and/or rape on the same level either. People know not to be murders because of its heavy social and judicial consequences; it's much more black and white than rape.

    As for the comment I quoted, it was saying that women should adjust their behaviour in order not to be raped. So the whole statement felt like a big shrug to me and didn't question rape culture in any way.
    Firsly, most males know how to respect women, just as most women know how to respect men. A small percentage of people will not know how to respect the opposing gender, but that is life, not everyone knows how to.

    Secondly, people realise what is wrong and if they don't realise what is wrong then there are already places where they can gain the information to what is wrong and what is right.

    Thirdly, murder isn't on the same level as rape because when someone commits a murder they are taking away a life which is worse than rape. Even so, people still realise that rape has severe consequences, socially and judicially.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I take a slightly different view. I would certainly say that 99%, perhaps even 99.9% of men, will never rape.
    No

    And it's highly offensive to suggest boys need to be "taught not to rape".
    I thought men just couldn't control themselves when they're aroused enough? or are they superior beings with control over everything (their bodies included)? i can't keep up

    On a completely unrelated subject, maybe girls should be taught to take the pill so they don't have to many abortions?
    While we're on that, there should be more research into male contraception

    I do think there are situations where consent can be a bit blurry, but these are situations common to growing up. For example, a 17 year old boy and girl get tremendously drunk and have sex consensually. The next morning the girl can't remember what happened and regrets it. Such things are exceedingly common, and it's totally wrong to purport to push that kind of situation into the rape area
    You realise that women don't serially and compulsively "cry rape"? Exceedingly common, what? The process for reporting a rape is insanely invasive and difficult and it's not something you do for fun... also, the rate of false rape reportings is pretty low

    I'm tired and ill btw sorry if this made no sense
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    (Original post by Wattsy)
    Can't recall the case name but that does sound about right. So many jury misdirections in Criminal cases it's almost worrying
    Completely agree. And it's not unlikely that some of these misdirections go unchallenged, o that the Court of Appeal unfortunately does not overturn them. But I suppose that's not purely related to rape and it's a more general issue in the criminal justice system

    Always cool to debate with a fellow TSRian law student though
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    (Original post by Катя)
    Doubt it mate. Following that logic, women in Muslim-majority countries never ever experience rape, because they don't go out drinking and are always totally covered.
    You can't draw comparisons. There are two different cultures. One culture centres more around men rejecting rape as a crime believing it's their right to have sex and another culture whereby most rape comes from a man wanting to show dominance. You can only compare in countries with similar cultures.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Under English law a woman cannot rape. Rape is penetrating another's mouth, anus or vagina with your penis, without their consent. Women do not have penises, therefore they cannot rape.

    But I agree they can sexually assault men, and it is insulting to say that boys need to be taught not to rape
    I was not aware of this, pardon my ignorance. Let us just say, for the sake of this argument, that a woman forcing a man to have sex with her is 'rape'.

    Taking that on board, a man can be equally harmed by 'rape', physically and mentally, as a woman would be. Arguably, men suffer greater consequences. For a start, most men find it too embarassing, and degrading, to seek help after they have been 'raped'. This can be due to a concern of being mocked by peers. Therefore, a man would be stuck with it on their shoulders for life. That is completely irrelvant for this discussion so I shall stay on point.

    For your last point, yes, indeed it is.
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    (Original post by Катя)
    I thought men just couldn't control themselves when they're aroused enough? or are they superior beings with control over everything (their bodies included)? i can't keep up
    That makes no sense. It is extreme feminists and religious nutcases who claim men can't control themselves, hence the former demanding boys be "taught not to rape".

    While we're on that, there should be more research into male contraception
    There is such a thing, it's called a condom. A woman is free to demand a condom at any time.

    You realise that women don't serially and compulsively "cry rape"?
    I realise that. I also realise that the rates of false claims are serially underreported as false claims are often merely dropped by the police/CPS and not prosecuted, whereas feminist activists label that as a "rapist who got away".

    This is obviously a difficult area because there are also rape victims who unfortunately do not receive justice. It's a sensitive and fraught subject
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    I was not aware of this, pardon my ignorance. Let us just say, for the sake of this argument, that a woman forcing a man to have sex with her is 'rape'\.
    Being a law student, I do prefer precision and therefore I would prefer to call it sexual assault, or a sexual violation, or what have you

    Taking that on board, a man can be equally harmed by 'rape', physically and mentally, as a woman would be. Arguably, men suffer greater consequences. For a start, most men find it too embarassing, and degrading, to seek help after they have been 'raped'. This can be due to a concern of being mocked by peers. Therefore, a man would be stuck with it on their shoulders for life. That is completely irrelvant for this discussion so I shall stay on point.
    I think it has some relevance, and I agree that men can be perhaps more traumatised by being sexually violated or assaulted because violence, sexual or physical, against men by women is not taken seriously. They are laughed at by their peers and by the police, they are asked why didn't they defend themselves.

    For these guys, it's like they're being violated all over again.
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    Firsly, most males know how to respect women, just as most women know how to respect men. A small percentage of people will not know how to respect the opposing gender, but that is life, not everyone knows how to.

    Secondly, people realise what is wrong and if they don't realise what is wrong then there are already places where they can gain the information to what is wrong and what is right.

    Thirdly, murder isn't on the same level as rape because when someone commits a murder they are taking away a life which is worse than rape. Even so, people still realise that rape has severe consequences, socially and judicially.
    Yeah, well life and ***** this, ***** that, slut this, **** that could've fooled me. Women are still looked down when they reveal having lots of sex when a man will have a high five. Indeed, not everyone knows how to... so I'd say it would be a good idea to educate them by actually the what and the why instead of brushing it off and saying things like "that's life" - which is what I criticised in my first post.

    Secondly, people realise what's right from wrong because they have been taught.

    Thirdly, there's a difference between killing someone (with all its implications) and facing the consequences and having sex with someone because you want to even though the other doesn't but you still want to, and they shouldn't have dressed like that anyway, or said yes in the first place, they're drunk, it's not as serious as murder because they'll still be alive afterwards.

    So yeah, I'm sure that some people, especially rapists, will have more issues with murders than with rape.

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I agree that men can be perhaps more traumatised by being sexually violated or assaulted because violence, sexual or physical, against men by women is not taken seriously. They are laughed at by their peers and by the police, they are asked why didn't they defend themselves.

    For these guys, it's like they're being violated all over again.
    And maybe some women can be even more traumatised by being sexually violated or assaulted because women are blamed for the situation and/or dismissed, even by other women, and "should've known better." Some people will even say it's simply life and ask why they didn't wear a longer skirt, dared to leave home or couldn't avoid interacting with a man.

    I think we can agree that rape is equally as traumatising for both men and women.
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    Yeah, well life and ***** this, ***** that, slut this, **** that could've fooled me. Women are still looked down when they reveal having lots of sex when a man will have a high five. Indeed, not everyone knows how to... so I'd say it would be a good idea to educate them by actually the what and the why instead of brushing it off and saying things like "that's life" - which is what I criticised in my first post.

    Secondly, people realise what's right from wrong because they have been taught.

    Thirdly, there's a difference between killing someone (with all its implications) and facing the consequences and having sex with someone because you want to even though the other doesn't but you still want to, and they shouldn't have dressed like that anyway, or said yes in the first place, they're drunk, it's not as serious as murder because they'll still be alive afterwards.

    So yeah, I'm sure that some people, especially rapists, will have more issues with murders than with rape.

    I don't quite understand this "Yeah, well life and ***** this, ***** that, slut this, **** that could've fooled me." Could you please elaborate on this point.

    Firstly, I would like to say the following points I am making are not what I entirely think, but merely what the general opinions of the public are.

    The reason that "women are still looked down" upon is because it is generally rather easy for a women to have sex with a man. For example, if a woman goes to a bar she will, usually, have a lot of men trying to hit on her, in order to have sex. Therefore, when a woman acts on this i.e. has sex with the willing men, she will often be looked down upon.

    On the contrary, men, again usually, have a harder time finding a partner to have sex with. This may be due to women, usually, being less willing to have sex with more menas a result of the negative public opinion which they were face if they do so. Therefore, when a man has sex with a woman, it is seen as an 'achievement' because he has managed to do something which many people have a hard time 'accomplishing'. But, in saying that, I have never actually witnessed a male being congratulated for having sex with many women and I do not understand where this idea comes from.
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    And maybe some women can be even more traumatised by being sexually violated or assaulted because women are blamed for the situation and/or dismissed, even by other women, and "should've known better." Some people will even say it's simply life and ask why they didn't wear a longer skirt, dared to leave home or couldn't avoid interacting with a man.

    I think we can agree that rape is equally as traumatising for both men and women.
    Perhaps equally traumatising in different ways. And frankly, I do think men also receive blame in such situations, the distinction being that men also cop the "You are a man, how could you let yourself be raped? You must have wanted it" and also laughter and derision from their peers and the police
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Perhaps equally traumatising in different ways.
    That's what my post was saying.

    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    And frankly, I do think men also receive blame in such situations, the distinction being that men also cop the "You are a man, how could you let yourself be raped? You must have wanted it" and also laughter and derision from their peers and the police
    "Laughter and derision" vs. "Dismissal and "common sense.""
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    I don't quite understand this "Yeah, well life and ***** this, ***** that, slut this, **** that could've fooled me." Could you please elaborate on this point.

    Firstly, I would like to say the following points I am making are not what I entirely think, but merely what the general opinions of the public are.

    The reason that "women are still looked down" upon is because it is generally rather easy for a women to have sex with a man. For example, if a woman goes to a bar she will, usually, have a lot of men trying to hit on her, in order to have sex. Therefore, when a woman acts on this i.e. has sex with the willing men, she will often be looked down upon.

    On the contrary, men, again usually, have a harder time finding a partner to have sex with. This may be due to women, usually, being less willing to have sex with more menas a result of the negative public opinion which they were face if they do so. Therefore, when a man has sex with a woman, it is seen as an 'achievement' because he has managed to do something which many people have a hard time 'accomplishing'. But, in saying that, I have never actually witnessed a male being congratulated for having sex with many women and I do not understand where this idea comes from.
    Most men do not respect women and people barely bat an eye-lid at misogyny.

    Women who are giving out are looked down upon because back then, women had to be chaste and pure~ to be worthwhile. They had to be chased and seduced, a woman doing the same wasn't pretty or classy. Those mindsets still are well alive and kicking nowadays. Different times, same crap.

    Also, that whole "achievement" reasoning reads like some Red Pill propaganda.
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    That's what my post was saying.

    "Laughter and derision" vs. "Dismissal and "common sense.""
    So you're saying it's common sense to dismiss a man who has been raped and interrogate him about why he didn't defend himself? :angry: That's disgusting
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    That's what my post was saying.


    "Laughter and derision" vs. "Dismissal and "common sense.""
    Wow, just wow.
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    But yeah, no.
    Well yes. We all have to accept responsibility for our actions.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    So you're saying it's common sense to dismiss a man who has been raped and interrogate him about why he didn't defend himself? :angry: That's disgusting
    Not. At. All.

    "Laughter and derision" = what men would face in those situation (YOUR POST)

    "Dismissal and "common sense"/"should've known better" = what women would face in those situation (MY POST)

    Different set of reactions to rape according to gender*, but equally as traumatising for both.

    Just, re-read my post! :mad:

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...&postcount=171

    * they are not set and some are most definitely be interchangeable, while some others can be more gender-specific.
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    (Original post by Slainery)
    Not. At. All.

    "Laughter and derision" = what men would face in those situation (YOUR POST)

    "Dismissal and "common sense"/"should've known better" = what women would face in those situation (MY POST)

    Different set of reactions to rape according to gender, but equally as traumatising for both.

    Just, re-read my post! :mad:

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...&postcount=171
    Fair enough. Apologies for misinterpreting your meaning
 
 
 
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