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Sharp rise in halal abattoirs slaughtering animals without stunning them first. Watch

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    (Original post by Ahmad786sY)
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    Hey Everyone

    I would firstly like to apologise for not reading all the posts up until this point, I find in most instances the posts seem to deviate further and further from the topic of discussion, especially when it comes to talking about Islam.

    Let us look at stunning first, the RSPCA slaughter Fact file mentions the following three methods for stunning which are practiced in the UK;

    1) Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun
    2) Electrical
    3) Gas Stunning/Killing

    Let us look at each one individually

    Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun (most common)
    • Stunner uses a pointed bolt
    • The bolt penetrates the skull of the animal, enters the cranium, and catastrophically damages the cerebrum and part of the cerebellum.
    • Due to concussion, destruction of vital centres of brain and an increase in intracranial pressure, the animal loses consciousness
    • This method physically destroys brain matter (increasing the probability of a successful stun), while also leaving the brain stem intact (Wikipedia)


    The video below shows this in practice;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHNomtLAbKU (Watch 4:01 to 5:10)

    This next part is of course my own opinion, but I don’t know about you, the animal’s reaction to the stun gun seems pretty painful to me

    The Narrator asks an important question – ‘Imagine for moment, firing a handgun up to 300 times an hour, every hour, day after day, week after week…could any weapon operate at such a rate?’

    I believe some of you made mention to a German study (I didn’t read it with much detail so forgive me if im wrong) that showed how stunning actually caused pain, some of you refuted this by saying that the stun gun turned out to be faulty….if they had a faulty stun gun in a controlled experiment done by scientists imagine the chances of there being a fault in a stun gun used ‘300 times an hour, every hour, day after day, week after week’.

    Electrical (least common)
    • Electrical current sent through the brain and/or heart of the animal before slaughter.
    • Current passing through the brain induces an immediate but non-fatal general convulsion (spasm / fit) that produces unconsciousness
    • Current passing through the heart produces an immediate cardiac arrest (heart attack) that also leads shortly to unconsciousness and death
    • Over-stunning negatively affects the quality of the meat, and therefore under-stunning is an attractive practice for slaughterhouses
    • With chickens for example, over-stunning leads to bone fractures and/or electrocution which prevents bleeding of the animal.
    • Understanding increases the chances of the animal not losing consciousness and therefore feel the full blow of the electrical current (Wikipedia)


    Again, my opinion, but the production of a heart attack through an electrical current sounds pretty cruel to me, even if its claimed that the animals loses consciousness immediately. I may not be looking hard enough, but I can’t find a study that can prove this procedure to be painless and that every animal loses consciousness after the first electrical current.

    Gas stunning

    • Animals are exposed to a mixture of breathing gases carbon dioxide for example, but historically carbon monoxide was used
    • This produces unconsciousness or death through asphyxia (the fancy word for suffocation)
    • The process is not instantaneous. (Wikipedia)


    Here’s a video depicting an animal going through this method of slaughter

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N082tXCac08 (0:49 onwards)

    My opinion - In my opinion, there is no aspect of this that looks humane, none what so ever – it has cruel written all over it…



    Muslim Method of Slaughtering Animals

    Now, let’s move to the Muslim method of slaughtering animals
    Muslim method of slaughtering animals is called the Dhabihah

    For the meat to be considered halal, three conditions must be met:
    1. The animal must be healthy and uninjured and, crucially, it must be killed using a well-sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incisions that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, windpipe and jugular veins
    2. All the blood must be drained from the animal’s body.
    3. The slaughterer must recite the appropriate Islamic prayer at the time of slaughter and the head of the animal but be aligned with the Qiblah (the direction in which Muslims pray 5 times a day)


    Let us consider the verdict of Joe Regenstein who is a Professor of Food Science at Cornell University in the United States who leads the Universities Kosher and Halal Food Initiative.

    ““Many of those attacking religious slaughter have no clue as to what is happening, It is more of an Islamophobic issue, not an animal well-being issue.” Compared to modern, secular methods of slaughter, he says, “the traditional or Prophetic method might actually be equal or possibly superior” because the initial pain of the throat cut results “in the animal releasing large quantities of endorphins, putting it in a state of euphoria and numbness”. The cut thus serves as its own stun. The scientific evidence against halal slaughter, Regenstein says, “is extremely weak and has often been done poorly with an agenda driving a desired outcome”.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Remember, that is not my own opinion but rather the words of a renowned Professor at Cornell University (who isn’t a Muslim)
    Professor Regenstein makes reference to Endorphins


    Professor Regenstein makes it clear that these endorphins put the animal in a state of numbness

    Let’s move on to the study done in 1978, led by Wilhelm Schulze of the University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover which showed that ‘the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG [electroencephalography] recordings and the missing defensive actions [of the animals]”.

    Note that the German Federal Constitutional Court based its 2002 verdict permitting ritual slaughter on this study.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Opinion -This study also showed how stunning with Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun caused pain but some of you have said that the stun-gun was faulty or something so for argument sake we won’t use that as evidence –however one point needs to made clear, just because someone has claimed the stun-gun was faulty doesn’t mean its correct –especially when no evidence is provided. Even in the case the stun-gun was faulty, the study still showed that ritualistic slaughtering of animals is painless –please don’t argue that the knife was faulty and that it was meant to cause pain….please. Remember that this isn’t a random study that had no significance, the German Federal Constitutional Court based its 2002 verdict of allowing ritual slaughter in Germany on this very study.

    Let us also consider the writings and research of Temple Grandin, professor of animal sciences at Colorado State University and one of America’s leading experts on the humane treatment and slaughter of livestock. She sees no difference between stunned and non-stunned slaughter if both are conducted properly and professionally. When a ritual slaughter is “done really right”, Grandin has said, “the animal seemed to act like it didn’t even feel it – if I walked up to that animal and put my hand in its face I would have got a much bigger reaction than I observed from the cut, and that was something which really surprised me”.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Again, let us note, this is a person of credibility –a professor of animal sciences at Colorado State University and one of America’s leading experts on humane treatment and slaughter of livestock –emphasis on the ‘humane treatment and slaughter of livestock’ –why would a person whose job is to promote humane treatment and slaughter of livestock describe the ritualistic slaughter as ‘the animal seemed to act like it didn’t even feel it’ – this alongside the findings from the German study in 1978 in my opinion paints a pretty clear picture

    Note the following video that shows how the animals are meant to be prepared before slaughter

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNJHw4MoT4 (4:55 onwards)
    Incase this man is secretly the ‘goat whisperer’ here are some more;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb5LZCwWNh8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHjfYGrn2zE

    Please, please, please note, I have cited everything ive written, I’ve clearly mentioned when im referencing to my own opinion as best I can and also purposely tried to make reference to people of note who are not Muslim to prevent the whole ‘oh, they would say that, they are after all Muslim, they have a vested interest’ The professors ive made mention to have no vested interest but rather are specialist in these fields and know more about this kind of stuff more then all of us combined.



    Now, Macro1 where are my manners, forgive me for neglecting your post for so long, you are after all the Thread Starter.




    Firstly, I have to admit…I absolutely love how you made reference to ‘Halal and Kosher’ but the title of the Thread and the little paragraph following the telegraph link made no mention to Kosher but rather of how it’s ‘’about time British non-Muslims grew a backbone and stuck up for their human rights too’’ –quick question Marco….aren’t Jews ‘British non-Muslims’ too? You know, the people that eat kosher meat and also practice ‘religious ritual slaughtering’?

    I also fell in love with how yourself and PapaPork, paint this picture that the treatment of animals throughout their lifetimes hold no meaning and how it’s all about the last minutes of their lives...

    Though I have (in my opinion) dealt with your ‘cruelty’ argument above, there are some other points that I wish you’d consider…

    You make reference to ‘aggressive bullish campaigning’ as being the cause of the ‘sharp rise in halal abattoirs slaughtering animals without stunning them first’ – So, let me get this straight… your telling me…abattoirs who have been subjected to gazillions of petitions, thousands of campaigns about the way animals are treated throughout their lives and have done little/ nothing about this, suddenly out of nowhere care about Muslims and their ritualistic slaughtering…if they haven’t given in to all those campaigns which have been endless and all those organisations set up to challenge the way they treat animals…then why do they suddenly care?

    Maybe the halal UK meat market being estimated to be worth £3 billion might have something to do with it, maybe that’s why fast-food chains in the UK such as McDonald’s and Domino’s Pizza are working on trails offering halal meat? Do you think the company executives in MacDonald’s and Dominos sat down one day and thought – you know what? We’ve gotten so many letters from Muslims and they’re outside campaigning day and night, why don’t we give halal meat a try?

    Marco… the rise in halal meat has very little to do with Muslim campaigning – everybody wants to make more money and tap into that £3 billion market.

    ‘Many UK hospitals now serve only Halal slaughtered meat in their visitor’s restaurants’ –This statement has little to no evidence to verify it. The next time you find yourself in a UK Hospital I would recommend the pork or bacon –I promise, it won’t be halal.

    You ask ‘how can Britain be so halal when the vast majority of its citizens are purportedly non-Muslims? – Your right, only about 5% of the British population is Muslim, so why is everything turning halal? – For a start this vast majority who are non-Muslim…don’t care if it’s halal or not… and people who eat meat know how badly animals are treated and don’t think ‘oh this animal was treated like a prisoner for all its life, but because it has been slaughtered in the Muslim way, which I think its cruel, im not going to eat from here!’

    On the other hand, when a Muslim goes out to eat / buys meat, the first thing on their mind is if it’s halal or not? And spend money accordingly.
    For those of you who just can’t stomach halal meat –consider this, please do not fool yourself into thinking that you care about animal welfare, because if you really did you would be a vegetarian. And…just be upfront…you don’t have a problem with pain caused to the animal but rather a problem with that its Islamic – my advice to you –the next time you’ve been cornered into a halal restaurant and you have no-where else to go and this is your last resort, I recommend going for the pork option or why not sprinkle some alcohol all over your plate – it will make the meal not halal

    Dear Student Room…. We here are the new generation…Will we following the footsteps of our fathers and build a world of hate and intolerance of other religions (Muslims do this too) or will we through love and compassion help make this world a better place.

    Martin Luther King said “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
    You do realise slitting an animals throat is no guarantee of death? Animals have been filmed in such slaughter houses surviving for 2, 5, 10, 20+ minutes after having their throat cut. My grandfather himself survived his throat being cut in the war.

    Is the western method perfect? No! Of course not, not method of killing will ever be 'perfect'. However the Halal method "often" used is fairly barbaric. It's ironic that many halal slaughterhouses (aka the majority) stun the animals anyway.
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    (Original post by ICF)
    so you are under the impression that halal animals never had anti biotics or even growth accelerants injected in them either? perhaps you need to educate yourself a little more.
    halal refers only to the method of slaughter.
    you argument would only apply if you were proposing vegetarianism - i am one, but using this above argument is not an argument supporting halal. you argument seems to be -'animals die cruelly, so why not let people kill them with extra cruelty, because of some old tribal arab tradition' rather stupid
    Its a generalised term....
    Halal: Just means permissible, is any object or an action which is permissible to use or engage in, not only food.

    Zabihah is term that refers to the method of slaughter according to Islam.

    There is also actually more to it when it comes to something being Halal meat, its becoming a more debated issue, with some Muslims avoiding meat due to the industry not raising the animals as according to Islam. It has also led to the rise of essentially Organic Halal farms for example.
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    Its a generalised term....
    Halal: Just means permissible, is any object or an action which is permissible to use or engage in, not only food.

    Zabihah is term that refers to the method of slaughter according to Islam.

    There is also actually more to it when it comes to something being Halal meat, its becoming a more debated issue, with some Muslims avoiding meat due to the industry not raising the animals as according to Islam. It has also led to the rise of essentially Organic Halal farms for example.
    agreed. halal tho has become the accepted term for permissable meat - referring to its slaughter ( zabihah) my point was there is no quranic restriction on useing antibiotics etc, only how you slit its throat etc. the other debates are i suppose some muslims trying to push an animal welfare angle - but then its impossible to argue the way say tribal arabs kill goats in the desert is the most humane way possible
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    (Original post by ICF)
    agreed. halal tho has become the accepted term for permissable meat - referring to its slaughter ( zabihah) my point was there is no quranic restriction on useing antibiotics etc, only how you slit its throat etc. the other debates are i suppose some muslims trying to push an animal welfare angle - but then its impossible to argue the way say tribal arabs kill goats in the desert is the most humane way possible
    Its being confused with the term halal meat, and media are pushing it without bothering to research.

    Actually no, there are restrictions which animals are allowed to be slaughtered e.g. if their sick they can't. However, there are also guidelines to how animals should be raised/treated....this is the issue which is slowly becoming a bigger topic in the Muslim community, with some only considering organic halal as acceptable. It'll get a bigger movement going with more abattoirs trying to hustle in on the halal meat market.
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    ASDASD
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    (Original post by R Dragon)
    Hi,

    I was vegetarian too for a while. So I deeply respect your ideals.

    Yes, I understand your point, and I assure you I'm very well versed with what halal means. What I'm trying to accentuate is that the method of halal slaughter isn't barbaric. It's an incredibly humane process and I think if a chicken was given a choice between death by a halal butcher or a lioness, it'd be a pretty easy decision to make :P
    If you think slitting an animals throat with a knife and letting the blood drain out while in its death throws is "incredibly humane", you must be desensitized. Also, I don't see how your "lesser of two evils" example serves any justification.
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    ADFADS
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    (Original post by R Dragon)
    Hi,

    Indeed it's incredibly humane, especially when contrasted to how the animal might die in the wild (slow suffocation by a cobra, ripped apart by a canidae or by the excruciating poison at the hand of a scorpion etc.- take your pick.) It's tough, life in the wild isn't easy.

    As a dentistry student, I spend a lot of my time dissecting cadavers (humans), you'd be surprised at how fragile the neck is. A properly performed halal slaughter would be swift and provide instantaneous death.
    "Incredibly humane"? Cutting a throat. I don't think so. I wouldn't like it one bit.
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ine-abuse.html

    'A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

    The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

    Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.'

    So much for Halal
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    I don't particularly like Halal slaughter either but it would be hypocritical of me to complain for two reasons.

    1). I'm not a vegetarian.
    2). I eat halal meat when I got out to restaurants or takeaways.

    Now don't get me wrong, I ADORE animals but they taste good too...
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    Ive said it before and I'll continue to say it.

    Most religion is just hypocritical of itself.

    E.g. dont kill anyone, kill someone if they object this or that.

    Treat animals a certain way, take the p*** when you kill them

    Jesus and God can heal everything, Christians live equally as normal lives as everyone else.

    Blah blah blah. such a waste of time and interest
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    OK here's something

    I would be willing to accept halal and Kosher are OK if the research was finally able to prove it was just as good as pre stunning and people like the RSPCA and veterinary and farming groups etc.. lifted their objections.

    Would muslims and Jews be able to say the same should Halal and Kosher be proved to be worse than pre stunning and accept that is should be removed from it's current exemption for the ethical treatment of animals and agree all animals should be pre stunned?
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    At the end of the day you'll all pop down to your nearest muslim asian take away and probably order something with meat in it. Pointless complaining my dayss

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by radicalboujie)
    At the end of the day you'll all pop down to your nearest muslim asian take away and probably order something with meat in it. Pointless complaining my dayss

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Except some of of don't as we don't buy halal meat regardless of how it comes and actively campaign against it so are unwilling to roll over for a bit of curry:rolleyes:

    Just because you may have no principles doesn't mean we all don't.
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ine-abuse.html

    'A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

    The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

    Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.'

    So much for Halal
    IM GLAD THESE MEN ARE SACKED THAT IS PURE EVIL!!

    BUT lets make sure we are aware that HALAL and whatever these psychos are doing ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE! In Islam, Halal meat has set criteria as we know to minimise all pain by:
    -using a sharp blade so you dont need to 'hack thro'
    -not showing the animal their friends dying
    -not showing the animal the blade
    -cut directly the main vein to quicken the death procedure and purify the animal by removing blood (stunning animal leaves blood in animal which causes many health problems)
    -treating the animal well, with food, shelter, warmth etc during its life


    I AGREE THAT MUCH OF THE MEAT CLAIMING TO BE HALAL IS NOT ACTUALLY SO I ADVISE CO-OPERATIONS TO BE MORE STRICT IN THEIR ASSESSMENT OF SLAUGHTERHOUSES.

    NEVERTHELESS DON'T LISTEN TO THE DAILY FAIL AS THEY TWIST AND LIE EVERY DAY!
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    OK here's something

    I would be willing to accept halal and Kosher are OK if the research was finally able to prove it was just as good as pre stunning and people like the RSPCA and veterinary and farming groups etc.. lifted their objections.

    Would muslims and Jews be able to say the same should Halal and Kosher be proved to be worse than pre stunning and accept that is should be removed from it's current exemption for the ethical treatment of animals and agree all animals should be pre stunned?
    I'm afraid not, this is our religion, we believe God's law come before any man-made regulation. We have submitted to the beautiful timeless religion of Islam and would never compromise it for scientific claims that are constantly changing....at the end of the day I'm sure you'll find stunning is worse than proper slaughtering techniques any day so you shouldn't have a problem.

    Peace.
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    (Original post by safar.sagheer)
    IM GLAD THESE MEN ARE SACKED THAT IS PURE EVIL!!

    BUT lets make sure we are aware that HALAL and whatever these psychos are doing ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE! In Islam, Halal meat has set criteria as we know to minimise all pain by:
    -using a sharp blade so you dont need to 'hack thro'
    -not showing the animal their friends dying
    -not showing the animal the blade
    -cut directly the main vein to quicken the death procedure and purify the animal by removing blood (stunning animal leaves blood in animal which causes many health problems)
    -treating the animal well, with food, shelter, warmth etc during its life


    I AGREE THAT MUCH OF THE MEAT CLAIMING TO BE HALAL IS NOT ACTUALLY SO I ADVISE CO-OPERATIONS TO BE MORE STRICT IN THEIR ASSESSMENT OF SLAUGHTERHOUSES.

    NEVERTHELESS DON'T LISTEN TO THE DAILY FAIL AS THEY TWIST AND LIE EVERY DAY!
    A bit shouty

    But the fact is muslims and Jews are exempted from the laws on ethical treatment of animals this exemption need to be removed.

    But google EID slaughter to see how halal is really done

    Just don't do it on a full stomach

    Oh and it's being reported in the telegraph, the Guardian and the BBC so daily fail argument wont wash
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    (Original post by safar.sagheer)
    I'm afraid not,
    Yet we are the closed minded ones

    At least I can change my opinion on this given the FACTS
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ine-abuse.html

    'A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

    The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

    Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.'

    So much for Halal
    Following the logic of many in this thread, this is absolutely fine because worse stuff happens in the meat industry. I'm guessing these people will be pretty quiet on this issue.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Following the logic of many in this thread, this is absolutely fine because worse stuff happens in the meat industry. I'm guessing these people will be pretty quiet on this issue.
    Not so sure 'halal' meat that isn't halal!!

    I expect a explosion of outrage

    That or it won't even register and it'll be the usual 'no true Scotsman' fallacy
 
 
 
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