13 civilians - including women and children- slaughtered in Saudi -Arabia strikes Watch

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PopaPork
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#161
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#161
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
Lol, NEVER have I come across anything like that. Source? I'd love to know.

...Where on earth do you live?
Let's get this straight as far as you are aware there is no punishment in any muslim majority country for leaving Islam?
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TheCynicalChild
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#162
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#162
(Original post by PopaPork)
Let's get this straight as far as you are aware there is no punishment in any muslim majority country for leaving Islam?
Nope, as far as I'm aware, there's no punishment in Islam itself. That is, no punishment for apostasy as a non religio-political choice.
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Good bloke
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#163
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#163
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
Nope, as far as I'm aware, there's no punishment in Islam itself. That is, no punishment for apostasy as a non religio-political choice.
The well-sourced Wikipedia article on the matter says:

The Islamic law on apostasy and the punishment is considered by many Muslims to be one of the immutable laws under Islam. It is a hudud crime, which means it is a crime against God, and the punishment has been fixed by God. The punishment for apostasy includes state enforced annulment of his or her marriage, seizure of the person's children and property with automatic assignment to guardians and heirs, and death for the apostate.

According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for females life imprisonment.

Today, apostasy is a crime in 23 out 49 Muslim majority countries; in many other Muslim nations such as Indonesia and Morocco, apostasy is indirectly covered by other laws
The bold part is frightening. Whatever happened to there being no compulsion in religion? Punishment (death in some cases) for changing your mind about a superstition! :eek:
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PopaPork
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#164
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#164
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
Nope, as far as I'm aware, there's no punishment in Islam itself. That is, no punishment for apostasy as a non religio-political choice.
If you were to discover there is a punishment would this change the way you think about the faith you have chosen to follow?

Or would you simply be able to dismiss the facts as irrelevant to your faith?

'Twenty-seven (27)
countries consider apostasy from Islam illegal and a prosecutable offence.
Depending on the influence of Islamism and Sharia law, in places like Malaysia,
Morocco, Jordan and Oman punishments vary from fines, imprisonment,
flogging and exclusion from civil or family rights. In eleven (11) countries
(namely Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Somalia, Afghanistan, Qatar,
Yemen and Mauritania), apostasy is punishable by the death penalty. '

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on
this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

This is a very enlightening read

http://ex-muslim.org.uk/wp-content/u...eport_Web1.pdf
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TheCynicalChild
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#165
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#165
(Original post by Good bloke)
The well-sourced Wikipedia article on the matter says:

The bold part is frightening. Whatever happened to there being no compulsion in religion? Punishment (death in some cases) for changing your mind about a superstition! :eek:
But the Wikipedia article also says that there is major controversy amongst both medieval and contemporary scholars. I happen to side with the view that the death penalty prescribed is for religio-political views of that time.


(Original post by PopaPork)
If you were to discover there is a punishment would this change the way you think about the faith you have chosen to follow?

Or would you simply be able to dismiss the facts as irrelevant to your faith?

'Twenty-seven (27)
countries consider apostasy from Islam illegal and a prosecutable offence.
Depending on the influence of Islamism and Sharia law, in places like Malaysia,
Morocco, Jordan and Oman punishments vary from fines, imprisonment,
flogging and exclusion from civil or family rights. In eleven (11) countries
(namely Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Somalia, Afghanistan, Qatar,
Yemen and Mauritania), apostasy is punishable by the death penalty. '

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on
this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

This is a very enlightening read

http://ex-muslim.org.uk/wp-content/u...eport_Web1.pdf
Funnily enough, that document states that Islam cannot be a personal religion whereas I regard it as completely personal and have had no problem with that. I disagree with a lot of that document since there ARE dissenting opinions as I stated before such as the opinions of the scholars such as Sarakshi, Ibn Taymiyyah and Ayatollah Montazeri (to name a few) that all argue that the death penalty was a politically motivated punishment. So no, I don't agree with apostasy being a punishment in these countries. If I did find out there was a definite punishment for apostasy, I would be very disappointed and that would impact my views on my religion in a massive way.
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PopaPork
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#166
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#166
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
If I did find out there was a definite punishment for apostasy, I would be very disappointed and that would impact my views on my religion in a massive way.
The article is not there for you to 'disagree or agree' with it is simply providing facts

The article is clear on this

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'
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TheCynicalChild
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#167
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#167
(Original post by PopaPork)
The article is not there for you to 'disagree or agree' with it is simply providing facts

The article is clear on this

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'
I gave you dissenting evidence of reputable scholars that you can very easily look up. So yes, I can disagree.
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PopaPork
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#168
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#168
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
I gave you dissenting evidence of reputable scholars that you can very easily look up. So yes, I can disagree.
'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on
this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

this is a fact.
I have looked up your scholars and it seems even Ibn Taymiyyah agrees with the death penalty

http://islam.stackexchange.com/quest...d-apostasy-law

Ibn Taymiya made his views very clear in his book "As-Sarim al-Maslool 'ala Shatim ar-Rasool" 3/696

على خصوصها وكلاهما قد قام الدليل على وجوب قتل صاحبها والادلة الدالة على سقوط القتل بالتوبة لا تعم القسمين بل انما تدل على القسم الاول كما يظهر لمن ذلك تامل الادلة على قبول توبة المرتد فيبقى القسم الثاني وقد قام الدليل على وجوب قتل صاحبه ولم يات نص ولا اجماع بسقوط القتل عنه والقياس متعذر مع وجود الفرق الجلي فانقطع الالحاق والذي يحقق هذه الطريقة انه لم يات في كتاب ولا سنة ولا اجماع ان كل من ارتد باي قول او اي فعل كان فانه يسقط عنه القتل اذا تاب بعد القدرة عليه بل الكتاب والسنة والاجماع قد فرق بين انواع المرتدين كما سنذكره
شیخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله - الصارم المسلول على شاتم الرسول، الجزء ٣، صفحة ٦٩٦

"...Apostasy is of two types: ordinary apostasy and extreme apostasy, for which execution is prescribed. In both cases there is evidence that it is obligatory to execute the apostate, but the evidence indicating that the sentence of death may be waived if the person repents does not apply to both types of apostasy. Instead, the evidence indicates that that is allowed only in the first case (ordinary apostasy) as will be clear to anyone who studies the evidence that speaks about accepting the repentance of the apostate. In the second type (extreme apostasy) the obligation to put the apostate to death still stands, and there is no text nor consensus to indicate that the death sentence may be waived. The two cases are quite different and there is no comparison between them. It does not say in the Quran or Sunna, or according to scholarly consensus, that everyone who apostatizes in word or deed may be spared the death sentence if he repents after he is a captured and tried. Rather the Quran and Sunna, and consensus, differentiate between the different kinds of apostates."

As you can see, he clearly believed in the death punishment.



DO you agree with this statement (I've modified it just for you)

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is very little dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'
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TheCynicalChild
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#169
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#169
(Original post by PopaPork)
'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on
this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

this is a fact.
I have looked up your scholars and it seems even Ibn Taymiyyah agrees with the death penalty

http://islam.stackexchange.com/quest...d-apostasy-law

Ibn Taymiya made his views very clear in his book "As-Sarim al-Maslool 'ala Shatim ar-Rasool" 3/696

على خصوصها وكلاهما قد قام الدليل على وجوب قتل صاحبها والادلة الدالة على سقوط القتل بالتوبة لا تعم القسمين بل انما تدل على القسم الاول كما يظهر لمن ذلك تامل الادلة على قبول توبة المرتد فيبقى القسم الثاني وقد قام الدليل على وجوب قتل صاحبه ولم يات نص ولا اجماع بسقوط القتل عنه والقياس متعذر مع وجود الفرق الجلي فانقطع الالحاق والذي يحقق هذه الطريقة انه لم يات في كتاب ولا سنة ولا اجماع ان كل من ارتد باي قول او اي فعل كان فانه يسقط عنه القتل اذا تاب بعد القدرة عليه بل الكتاب والسنة والاجماع قد فرق بين انواع المرتدين كما سنذكره
شیخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله - الصارم المسلول على شاتم الرسول، الجزء ٣، صفحة ٦٩٦

"...Apostasy is of two types: ordinary apostasy and extreme apostasy, for which execution is prescribed. In both cases there is evidence that it is obligatory to execute the apostate, but the evidence indicating that the sentence of death may be waived if the person repents does not apply to both types of apostasy. Instead, the evidence indicates that that is allowed only in the first case (ordinary apostasy) as will be clear to anyone who studies the evidence that speaks about accepting the repentance of the apostate. In the second type (extreme apostasy) the obligation to put the apostate to death still stands, and there is no text nor consensus to indicate that the death sentence may be waived. The two cases are quite different and there is no comparison between them. It does not say in the Quran or Sunna, or according to scholarly consensus, that everyone who apostatizes in word or deed may be spared the death sentence if he repents after he is a captured and tried. Rather the Quran and Sunna, and consensus, differentiate between the different kinds of apostates."

As you can see, he clearly believed in the death punishment.



DO you agree with this statement (I've modified it just for you)

'Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is very little dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'
The comments say that it's been taken out of the context that he's talking about hypocrites. But again, you choose to point out one possible anomaly and cherry pick that to work in your favour.

You keep asking me the same questions repeatedly and tbh I'm getting fed up. I've clearly stated I do not agree with the death penalty for apostasy or any penalties for that matter and that I side with the view that the death penalty was only for a religio-political reason.
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PopaPork
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#170
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#170
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
The comments say that it's been taken out of the context that he's talking about hypocrites. But again, you choose to point out one possible anomaly and cherry pick that to work in your favour.

You keep asking me the same questions repeatedly and tbh I'm getting fed up. I've clearly stated I do not agree with the death penalty for apostasy or any penalties for that matter and that I side with the view that the death penalty was only for a religio-political reason.
one possible anomaly of him saying what the other 4 schools of Islamic thought says

'We kill those who abandon their faith:rolleyes:'

Yes that right as I want you to accept the truth of your faith not the fluffy ideas you have about it (most of which are simply incorrect)

But as I've said that you disagree with it is irrelevant as you are simply ignoring the inconvenient truth and that is

''Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

Time and time again we have shown you to be ignorant of your faith that or you simply cherry pick the bits you like but this does not in any way change the facts

But best thing you can do now is call me a troll and run away
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TheCynicalChild
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#171
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#171
(Original post by PopaPork)
one possible anomaly of him saying what the other 4 schools of Islamic thought says

'We kill those who abandon their faith:rolleyes:'

Yes that right as I want you to accept the truth of your faith not the fluffy ideas you have about it (most of which are simply incorrect)

But as I've said that you disagree with it is irrelevant as you are simply ignoring the inconvenient truth and that is

''Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

Time and time again we have shown you to be ignorant of your faith that or you simply cherry pick the bits you like but this does not in any way change the facts

But best thing you can do now is call me a troll and run away
Best thing you can do is continually twist my words and try and paint me in a light that suits you and your stated 'hatred' of all things regarding my religion. At least I let you do what you want, which is more tolerant than you continuously attacking someone for their personal beliefs. It's kind of funny actually, that you imply that Muslims are intolerant and close minded yet you've continuously proven yourself to be ignorant. 'Islam doesn't allow religious freedom, they oppress women'-well I'm a woman and the only thing that's suppressing my religious freedom and expression is people like you constantly and relentlessly attacking me for my beliefs that in no way have any relevance or effect towards you. What do you get out of attacking someone? What do you get out of insulting them? And don't give me that stuff that 'you want me to open my eyes and see the light' because you've made it very clear my freedom of thought isn't in your interest.

I sincerely hope there are less people out there like you because you have severely lowered my faith in humanity.
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al_94
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#172
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#172
(Original post by PopaPork)
one possible anomaly of him saying what the other 4 schools of Islamic thought says

'We kill those who abandon their faith:rolleyes:'

Yes that right as I want you to accept the truth of your faith not the fluffy ideas you have about it (most of which are simply incorrect)

But as I've said that you disagree with it is irrelevant as you are simply ignoring the inconvenient truth and that is

''Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars'

Time and time again we have shown you to be ignorant of your faith that or you simply cherry pick the bits you like but this does not in any way change the facts

But best thing you can do now is call me a troll and run away
It is definitely the strongest opinion the apostate should be killed if they are found guilty of it but some say it is only if they propagate their new faith they face the death penalty.
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PopaPork
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#173
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#173
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
Best thing you can do is continually twist my words and try and paint me in a light that suits you and your stated 'hatred' of all things regarding my religion. At least I let you do what you want, which is more tolerant than you continuously attacking someone for their personal beliefs. It's kind of funny actually, that you imply that Muslims are intolerant and close minded yet you've continuously proven yourself to be ignorant. 'Islam doesn't allow religious freedom, they oppress women'-well I'm a woman and the only thing that's suppressing my religious freedom and expression is people like you constantly and relentlessly attacking me for my beliefs that in no way have any relevance or effect towards you. What do you get out of attacking someone? What do you get out of insulting them? And don't give me that stuff that 'you want me to open my eyes and see the light' because you've made it very clear my freedom of thought isn't in your interest.

I sincerely hope there are less people out there like you because you have severely lowered my faith in humanity.
as I said call me a troll and run away but I'll leave you with a muslim who is at least honest

'It is definitely the strongest opinion the apostate should be killed if they are found guilty of it but some say it is only if they propagate their new faith they face the death penalty.'

Enjoy
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TheCynicalChild
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#174
(Original post by PopaPork)
as I said call me a troll and run away but I'll leave you with a muslim who is at least honest

'It is definitely the strongest opinion the apostate should be killed if they are found guilty of it but some say it is only if they propagate their new faith they face the death penalty.'

Enjoy
Why I even bother is beyond me.
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Good bloke
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#175
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#175
(Original post by al_94)
It is definitely the strongest opinion the apostate should be killed if they are found guilty of it but some say it is only if they propagate their new faith they face the death penalty.
That's a relief then. An ex-Moslem atheist would feel really safe, wouldn't he?
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PopaPork
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#176
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#176
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
Why I even bother is beyond me.
because you think you are right (despite being demonstrably wrong)

I mean you can't even admit that

'''Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars''

is correct or accept that muslim countries DO kill people for leaving Islam again despite all the evidence

Hell you even disagree with facts as they contradict what you personally believe
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PopaPork
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#177
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#177
(Original post by Good bloke)
That's a relief then. An ex-Moslem atheist would feel really safe, wouldn't he?
at least he's being honest
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TheCynicalChild
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#178
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#178
(Original post by PopaPork)
because you think you are right (despite being demonstrably wrong)

I mean you can't even admit that

'''Under Islamic law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical or modern Islamic scholars''

is correct or accept that muslim countries DO kill people for leaving Islam again despite all the evidence

Hell you even disagree with facts as they contradict what you personally believe
You also think you're right despite being presented with differing facts. Arrogant.

Now stop dragging me into your pathetic ego trip arguing again.
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PopaPork
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#179
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#179
(Original post by TheCynicalChild)
You also think you're right despite being presented with differing facts. Arrogant.
Now stop dragging me into your pathetic ego trip arguing again.
No I've taken the evidence muslims, Islamic scholars, the Laws of Muslim countries, sharia and ex muslims have presented and made my mind up on the evidence they have provided
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al_94
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#180
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#180
(Original post by Good bloke)
That's a relief then. An ex-Moslem atheist would feel really safe, wouldn't he?
This is only in a country where Islamic law is applied. They made the choice to leave their religion if they want to do that they can leave the nation but if they publicy display their apostasy the law is that they may be given a waiting period while incarcerated to repent and accept Islam again and if not they will be put to death.

Under the Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Islamic jurispudence the female apostate must be executed but under Hanafi school she should be imprisoned until she accepts Islam.
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