Turn on thread page Beta

Are there any Muslim converts on here preferably from a judea-christian background? watch

Announcements
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Qur'anic embryology is riddled with scientific errors and omissions, proving quite clearly that it's not the work of an all-knowing God. In addition, there isn't a single piece of precise, original science in Islamic scripture. In fact, the Qur'an is replete with scientific errors.
    Mr Crown! It's been 2 years since I last debated with you.

    You're like a guy going through NewScientist and saying you couldn't find a single piece of original research and thus it is discredited.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Masoudy)
    Mr Crown! It's been 2 years since I last debated with you.

    You're like a guy going through NewScientist and saying you couldn't find a single piece of original research and thus it is discredited.
    Just platitudes.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ScaredBanana)
    When I met a Muslim for the first time during secondary school my outlook on religion began to change completely. She showed me how Islam is supported by science with embryology for example, and I bought a translated Qu'ran to learn more about Islam.
    What's your answer to Quran critics who say that the Quran's narrative about embryology is contradictory with science?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    The point I was making was that the Hadith on Wikipedia are no more inaccurate by virtue of being on Wikipedia than Hadith found elsewhere. To continue what you were saying, I'd go so far as saying that both the Hadith and the Koran are inaccurate, but that's probably unwelcome to both you and hilrho.
    Eyy, I don't think of criticism as unwelcome. And I agree with your first point, since I've never seen a case where wikipedia didn't provide a reference for its hadiths.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by hilrho)
    Merci Beaucoup



    Have you tried sending in your pictures to Modelling Agencies? You need to get an agent first, they book you for campaigns. I'm lucky to be scouted though, if you lived here I could've hooked you up with them or better you should've gone to the Italian wedding with me (if only we knew each other back then) - that's where I first met Donatello as they're related! So I'll be lucky enough to start at a good place

    You wouldn't be saying that once I start speaking, like it hurts to keep my mouth shut and not talk would prolly need to get ear muffs ESPECIALLY if I start talking about philosophy and Islam but you can hear me talk about that all day can't you (why did you remove that I read it while revising and I was like awww he's so sweet!!!)



    I know what you mean, I haven't been able to read much for the past couple months but this summer was all about me me, Chéri, Pride and the Prejudice and gorging on macaroons, hors d'oeuvre and canapés by the lake

    Now I really really wanna go back It's all your fault! You reminded me of sweet sweet summer, thats right I blame it on you

    Ooh that sounds like an interesting title - is it included in the gigantic list you gave me earlier? If not, I'd like to read that

    Well I'm Bisexual so if I become muslim you will deffo find my views interesting I'm sure
    oo cool, another muslim (erm, I consider you muslim if you believe but haven't declared a shahada or whatever haha) who doesn't consider homosexual interactions to be haraam. What's your take on the story of Lut (a.s)? In my understanding the huge condemnation God makes isn't about homosexual acts but the fact that the people of soddom and gomorrah were raping travellers, -and- they were married, so it was adultery too.
    Offline

    18
    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    oo cool, another muslim (erm, I consider you muslim if you believe but haven't declared a shahada or whatever haha) who doesn't consider homosexual interactions to be haraam. What's your take on the story of Lut (a.s)? In my understanding the huge condemnation God makes isn't about homosexual acts but the fact that the people of soddom and gomorrah were raping travellers, -and- they were married, so it was adultery too.
    ...

    It can't really be argued that Islam isn't critical of homosexual acts. Your interpretation seems to be rather wishful thinking on your part in an attempt to reconcile a liberal view of homosexuality with the Islamic view of homosexuality. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were quite clearly punished by god because of their indulgence in homosexuality, not their indulgence in rape or adultery...

    The Koran is quite clear that Lut's primary objection to the townsfolk's intentions for the travellers wasn't that it was adultery or rape, but rather the homosexual aspect of it. If he cared about people not being raped, he wouldn't have offered his daughters to them instead. :facepalm: Of course, the moral implication of that -- that heterosexual rape is better than homosexual rape -- is another point that I doubt anybody can really explain or justify.

    (Disclaimer: I'm aware that he offered his daughters for marriage and not rape specifically. )
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    What's your answer to Quran critics who say that the Quran's narrative about embryology is contradictory with science?
    Most of the criticism to Qu'ranic embryology that I've come across has discussed two things, sometimes separately then other times together.

    1) Alaqua
    This argument is based around the word 'alaqua'. However, instead of arguing the legitimacy of the science people who use this argument tend to use semantics. They will say it (i) is not a clot, or (ii) it is not suspended, or (iii) it is not a leech. For I, the sheer fact that the heart begins a very basic development in the embryonic stage is demonstrative of the use of the word clot. It appears like a clot of blood. For II, the connecting stalk is scientific evidence. For III, the embryo both appears as a leech AND acts as a leech, like a parasite feeding from a host, an embryo takes nutrients from the mother.

    2) Galen
    This argument is based around the fact that many of stages in the Qu'ran are the same as those said by Galen before the Qu'ran was revealed. However, simply because some aspects were previously said does not stop the stages being an example of the miracle of the Qu'ran. Allah (swt) revealed the stages more concisely with more details that were not discussed by Galen, so the two cannot be linked.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Qur'anic embryology is riddled with scientific errors and omissions, proving quite clearly that it's not the work of an all-knowing God. In addition, there isn't a single piece of precise, original science in Islamic scripture. In fact, the Qur'an is replete with scientific errors.
    care to provide your evidence?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dose of fury)
    care to provide your evidence?
    Quranic embryology compares the foetus to a leech (awful comparison), says the foetus is a blood clot (totally wrong), says semen is produced between the backbone and ribs (it isn't), and completely fails to mention the female ovum which an all-knowing God would clearly have included.

    In addition, the ancient Greeks already studied embryology and made many of the same errors, which disproves the common narrative that no one before the Quran knew anything about embryonic development.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    ...

    It can't really be argued that Islam isn't critical of homosexual acts. Your interpretation seems to be rather wishful thinking on your part in an attempt to reconcile a liberal view of homosexuality with the Islamic view of homosexuality. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were quite clearly punished by god because of their indulgence in homosexuality, not their indulgence in rape or adultery...

    The Koran is quite clear that Lut's primary objection to the townsfolk's intentions for the travellers wasn't that it was adultery or rape, but rather the homosexual aspect of it. If he cared about people not being raped, he wouldn't have offered his daughters to them instead. :facepalm: Of course, the moral implication of that -- that heterosexual rape is better than homosexual rape -- is another point that I doubt anybody can really explain or justify.

    (Disclaimer: I'm aware that he offered his daughters for marriage and not rape specifically. )
    *Cough.* Okay, I wasn't clear. My current opinions on the matter are that while male homosexuality isn't okay, female homosexuality is fine. Also, the daughter's of Lut, as per islamic principles, would not take part in a marriage they didn't consent to. If someone doesn't consent to a marriage, then the contract is void (baatil) and the marriage is nullified and not islamically binding. As a shia, I'd say that since these were daughters of a prophet, they were masoum (infallible) and would have agreed to the idea for the greater good. It wouldn't be rape, but it would be reluctant.

    I -don't- think, however that male homosexuals who act upon their urges should be punished or dishonoured. Only if they are muslim -and believe- that homosexuality is haraam should they be 'dishonoured' or dissociated from (tabaarra) as the Quran commands. That doesn't mean they should be physically punished. It does mean that homosexual muslims should conduct their acts without anyone else ever finding out.
    Offline

    18
    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    *Cough.* Okay, I wasn't clear. My current opinions on the matter are that while male homosexuality isn't okay, female homosexuality is fine.
    It would be more accurate to say, if your opinions are grounded in what's said in the Koran and Hadith, that male homosexuality isn't okay, and female homosexuality may be fine. There's not much said about female homosexuality so it's not possible to say that it's definitely okay or definitely not okay. This may very well be the result of open female homosexuality being virtually non-existent in Arabia at the time.

    Also, the daughter's of Lut, as per islamic principles, would not take part in a marriage they didn't consent to. If someone doesn't consent to a marriage, then the contract is void (baatil) and the marriage is nullified and not islamically binding.
    You've inferred this from what you know to be Islamic principles. The Koran, however, is fairly clear that Lut offered his daughters to the townsfolk, and there's nothing mentioned about consent. Now that's as clear an indication as they come that the intention was to have his daughters married to them in order that the disguised angels be spared from the homosexuality that they would otherwise be subjected to. I don't see that there's much point in denying that, had the townsfolk agreed, the daughters would've been married off to them. Why else would Lut offer it? You don't offer what you don't have.

    As a shia, I'd say that since these were daughters of a prophet, they were masoum (infallible) and would have agreed to the idea for the greater good. It wouldn't be rape, but it would be reluctant.
    You don't seem to understand what rape is. Even sex that results from forcing somebody into a marriage by pressuring them to agree to it is, by the modern definition, rape. Furthermore, this is speculation. We can't know for certain what the daughters would or would not have done.

    I -don't- think, however that male homosexuals who act upon their urges should be punished or dishonoured. Only if they are muslim -and believe- that homosexuality is haraam should they be 'dishonoured' or dissociated from (tabaarra) as the Quran commands. That doesn't mean they should be physically punished. It does mean that homosexual muslims should conduct their acts without anyone else ever finding out.
    Well, this is your opinion, which you're entitled to have. But what you argued before, that it wasn't the homosexuality but the adultery of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, that Islam condemns, is clearly untrue. It cannot be argued that Islam is, on any level, definitely okay with homosexual behaviour.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Quranic embryology compares the foetus to a leech (awful comparison), says the foetus is a blood clot (totally wrong), says semen is produced between the backbone and ribs (it isn't), and completely fails to mention the female ovum which an all-knowing God would clearly have included.

    In addition, the ancient Greeks already studied embryology and made many of the same errors, which disproves the common narrative that no one before the Quran knew anything about embryonic development.
    watch the following video for clarification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuAfmJ3LS4s
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Sorry to barge in, I can see everyone is having discussions, but I thought I would reply.
    I converted to Islam 5 months ago alhamdullilah used to be a Christian. So far everything is going amazingly despite the fact I need to hide it from my parents.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Quranic embryology compares the foetus to a leech (awful comparison), says the foetus is a blood clot (totally wrong), says semen is produced between the backbone and ribs (it isn't), and completely fails to mention the female ovum which an all-knowing God would clearly have included.

    In addition, the ancient Greeks already studied embryology and made many of the same errors, which disproves the common narrative that no one before the Quran knew anything about embryonic development.
    The Quran doesn't say that semen is produced between the backbone and ribs. This is a seriously erroneous popular translation. If you take even a tiny bit of research into the meanings of 'sulb' and 'tara'ib' in fus'ha arabic, you'll find that 'sulb' is masculine and means 'loins', and 'tara'ib' is feminine and means 'lower abdomen'. The verse refers clearly to a mingling of fluids from the male loins and female lower abdomen. This is exactly what happens when seminal fluid containing sperm mixes with female follicular fluid containing the ovum.

    The quran doesn't compare the foetus to a leech. The 'alaqa refers to the leech-like stage seen here, which is not a foetus but an embryo:
    http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pre...-weeks_1094.bc
    This clings to the endometrium via the umbilical cord.

    The word alaqa can mean clot or leech. The word does not refer to a clot in the same way that if I said, 'You did the right thing,' it wouldn't mean the same thing as, 'You turned right at that last junction.' Yes, it's unclear. The Quran isn't clear alone, or perfect. Quran 3:7 confirms this. Yes, I'm aware that this raises the question of how a perfect god could give an unclear message if it intended it to be understood.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    It would be more accurate to say, if your opinions are grounded in what's said in the Koran and Hadith, that male homosexuality isn't okay, and female homosexuality may be fine. There's not much said about female homosexuality so it's not possible to say that it's definitely okay or definitely not okay. This may very well be the result of open female homosexuality being virtually non-existent in Arabia at the time.



    You've inferred this from what you know to be Islamic principles. The Koran, however, is fairly clear that Lut offered his daughters to the townsfolk, and there's nothing mentioned about consent. Now that's as clear an indication as they come that the intention was to have his daughters married to them in order that the disguised angels be spared from the homosexuality that they would otherwise be subjected to. I don't see that there's much point in denying that, had the townsfolk agreed, the daughters would've been married off to them. Why else would Lut offer it? You don't offer what you don't have.



    You don't seem to understand what rape is. Even sex that results from forcing somebody into a marriage by pressuring them to agree to it is, by the modern definition, rape. Furthermore, this is speculation. We can't know for certain what the daughters would or would not have done.



    Well, this is your opinion, which you're entitled to have. But what you argued before, that it wasn't the homosexuality but the adultery of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, that Islam condemns, is clearly untrue. It cannot be argued that Islam is, on any level, definitely okay with homosexual behaviour.
    I'm not a sunni. I don't buy into the whole whole 'disguised angels' thing because I don't believe angels have a, uh. Rapeable? form, and the whole thing is based upon sunni hadiths. Also, what I mean is that I'm inferring that the daughters of Lut would have agreed to, or perhaps suggested the plan before Lut had offered them in marriage to the people of Sodom.


    Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover.
    Abu Dawud 31:4007

    There's also a sunni hadith which says that 'women who engage in sexual relations (sihaq) are commiting adultery (zina).' The quran is already clear about what happens if 'women are guilty of lewdness' or what ever. It can't have been entirely unheard of, though this hadith may well have been invented long after Muhammad and have never happened - like many hadiths.

    And yeah, I made a mistake with the 'the quran isn't condemning homosexuality but adultery'. That was the me from about 2 or 3 months ago talking somehow... this happens sometimes, it's weird.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The Quran doesn't say that semen is produced between the backbone and ribs. This is a seriously erroneous popular translation. If you take even a tiny bit of research into the meanings of 'sulb' and 'tara'ib' in fus'ha arabic, you'll find that 'sulb' is masculine and means 'loins', and 'tara'ib' is feminine and means 'lower abdomen'. The verse refers clearly to a mingling of fluids from the male loins and female lower abdomen. This is exactly what happens when seminal fluid containing sperm mixes with female follicular fluid containing the ovum.

    The quran doesn't compare the foetus to a leech. The 'alaqa refers to the leech-like stage seen here, which is not a foetus but an embryo:
    http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pre...-weeks_1094.bc
    This clings to the endometrium via the umbilical cord.

    The word alaqa can mean clot or leech. The word does not refer to a clot in the same way that if I said, 'You did the right thing,' it wouldn't mean the same thing as, 'You turned right at that last junction.' Yes, it's unclear. The Quran isn't clear alone, or perfect. Quran 3:7 confirms this. Yes, I'm aware that this raises the question of how a perfect god could give an unclear message if it intended it to be understood.
    From the book The Qur'an and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible? by Dr. Zakir Naik:

    "EMBRYOLOGY

    A group of Muslim Scholars, under the direction ofan eminent Yemani Scholar, Sheikh Abdul MajidAzzindani, collected information concerningembryology and other sciences in the Qur'an andundisputed Hadith and translated it into English.They then followed the Qur'anic advice:

    “If ye realise this not,
    ask of those who possessthe Message.”
    [Al-Qur’an 16:43 & 21:7]

    All the information from the Qur’an and theundisputed Hadith concerning embryology sogathered, after being translated into English andpresented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, Professor ofEmbryology and Chairman of the Department ofAnatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada.At present he is one of the highest authorities in thefield of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding thematerial presented to him. After carefullyexamining it, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned inthe Qur’an and the undisputed Hadith is in perfectconformity with modern discoveries in the field ofembryology and does not conflict with them in anyway. He added that there were a few verseshowever, on whose scientific accuracy he could notcomment. He could not say whether the statementswere true or false, since he was himself unaware ofthe information contained therein. There was alsono mention of this information in modern writingsand studies on embryology.
    One such verse is:
    “Proclaim! (or Read!)
    In the name of thy Lord
    and Cherisher, Who created –
    Created man, out of a (mere)clot of congealed blood.”
    [Al-Qur’an 96:1-2]

    The Arabic word alaq, besides meaning a congealedclot of blood, also means something that clings, aleech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether anembryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. Tocheck this out he studied the initial stage of theembryo under a very powerful microscope andcompared what he observed with the diagram of aleech. He was astonished at the strikingresemblance between the two!
    In the same manner, he acquired more informationon embryology, that was hitherto not known to him,from the Qur’an. Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questionsdealing with embryological data mentioned in theQur’an and Hadith. Noting that the informationcontained in the Qur’an and Hadith was in fullagreement with the latest discoveries in the field ofembryology, Prof. Moore said, “If I was asked thesequestions thirty years ago, I would not have beenable to answer half of them for lack of scientificinformation”.

    In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference inDammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, “It hasbeen a great pleasure for me to help clarifystatements in the Qur’an about human development.It is clear to me that these statements must havecome to Muhammad from God or Allah, becausealmost all of this knowledge was not discovereduntil many centuries later. This proves to methat Muhammad must have been a messenger ofGod or Allah”. Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, 'The Developing Human’. After acquiring new knowledge from the Qur’an, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, ‘The Developing Human’. The book was the recipient of an award forthe best medical book written by a single author.This book has been translated into several majorlanguages of the world and is used as a textbook ofembryology in the first year of medical studies.
    Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Departmentof Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor Collegeof Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims: “...theseHadiths, sayings of Muhammad (pbuh), could nothave been obtained on the basis of the scientificknowledge that was available at the time of thewriter (implying in the 7th century). It follows thatnot only is there no conflict between genetics andreligion (implying Islam) but in fact religion (Islam)may guide science by adding revelation to some of thetraditional scientific approaches . . . there existstatements in the Qur’an shown centuries later to bevalid which support knowledge in the Qur’an havingbeen derived from God.”

    DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THEBACK BONE AND THE RIBS

    “Now let man but thinkfrom what he is created!
    He is created froma drop emitted –
    Proceeding from betweenthe back bone and the ribs.”
    [Al-Qur’an 86:5-7]

    In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of themale and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries,begin their development near the kidney betweenthe spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stopin the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles)continue their descent before birth to reach thescrotum through the inguinal canal. Even inadulthood after the descent of the reproductiveorgans, these organs receive their nerve supply andblood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is inthe area between the backbone (spinal column) andthe ribs. The lymphatic drainage and the venousreturn also go to the same area.

    NUTFAH – MINUTE QUANTITY OFLIQUID

    The Glorious Qur’an mentions no less than eleventimes that the human being is created from nutfah,which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickleof liquid that remains after emptying a cup. This ismentioned in several verses of the Qur’an including22:5 and 23:13. Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required for fertilising the ovum. This means that only 1/3 millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.__________________ ________________________________ __
    SULALAH – QUINTESSENCE OF LIQUID

    “And made his progeny
    from a quintessence
    of the nature of
    a fluid despised.”
    [Al-Qur’an 32:8]

    The Arabic word sulaalah means quintessence or thebest part of a whole. We have come to know now thatonly one single spermatozoon that penetrates theovum is required for fertilization, out of the severalmillion produced by man. That one spermatozoon outof several million, is referred to in the Qur’an assulaalah. We have also come to know now that onlyone ovum is fertilized out of the tens of thousandproduced by the female. That one ovum out of tensof thousand is also refered to in the Qur'an asSulaalah. This word also means gentle extractionfrom a fluid. The fluid refers to both male andfemale germinal fluids containing gametes. Bothovum and sperm are gently extracted from theirenvironments in the process of fertilisation.

    NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ – MINGLEDLIQUIDS

    “Verily We created man
    from a drop of mingled sperm.”
    [Al-Qur’an 76:2]

    The Arabic word nutfatin am shaajin means mingledliquids. According to some commentators of theQur’an, mingled liquids refers to the male or femaleagents or liquids. After mixture of male and femalegamete, the zygote still remains nutfah. Mingledliquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that isformed of various secretions that come from variousglands. Therefore, nutfatin am shaaj, i.e. a minute quantityof mingled fluids refers to the male and femalegametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of thesurrounding fluids."

    Sorry, I didn't realise how long this is, but I couldn't help myself! This is more for the person you're answering. I feel the book explains things really well
    Attached Images
      
    Offline

    18
    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    I'm not a sunni. I don't buy into the whole whole 'disguised angels' thing because I don't believe angels have a, uh. Rapeable? form
    I don't quite know the specifics of the Sunni/Shia split (other than it being a disagreement over who should have succeeded Muhammad and become Caliph) but the Koran clearly states that the men were disguised messengers of Allah so I'm not quite sure why you're saying you don't buy it, unless Shia Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be entirely true...

    and the whole thing is based upon sunni hadiths. Also, what I mean is that I'm inferring that the daughters of Lut would have agreed to, or perhaps suggested the plan before Lut had offered them in marriage to the people of Sodom.
    Yeah, but that's just speculation. There's no point using that as a basis of advancing one's argument because there's no evidence for it. :dontknow:

    Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover.
    Abu Dawud 31:4007

    There's also a sunni hadith which says that 'women who engage in sexual relations (sihaq) are commiting adultery (zina).' The quran is already clear about what happens if 'women are guilty of lewdness' or what ever. It can't have been entirely unheard of, though this hadith may well have been invented long after Muhammad and have never happened - like many hadiths.
    Fair enough -- what I meant was that the Koran doesn't say much about female homosexuality, probably because it wasn't all that common at the time. Women were second-class citizens who were more or less considered the property of their male relatives so that may have been a factor. It's hard to imagine that there weren't any lesbians in Arabia but the fear of punishment probably kept a lot of it under wraps.

    And yeah, I made a mistake with the 'the quran isn't condemning homosexuality but adultery'. That was the me from about 2 or 3 months ago talking somehow... this happens sometimes, it's weird.
    Haha, fair enough.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dose of fury)
    watch the following video for clarification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuAfmJ3LS4s
    I've seen that video before and it clarifies nothing, the embryology errors still remain. How about you actually provide an argument instead of fobbing people off to dubious YouTube videos?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I don't quite know the specifics of the Sunni/Shia split (other than it being a disagreement over who should have succeeded Muhammad and become Caliph) but the Koran clearly states that the men were disguised messengers of Allah so I'm not quite sure why you're saying you don't buy it, unless Shia Islam doesn't hold the Koran to be entirely true...



    Yeah, but that's just speculation. There's no point using that as a basis of advancing one's argument because there's no evidence for it. :dontknow:



    Fair enough -- what I meant was that the Koran doesn't say much about female homosexuality, probably because it wasn't all that common at the time. Women were second-class citizens who were more or less considered the property of their male relatives so that may have been a factor. It's hard to imagine that there weren't any lesbians in Arabia but the fear of punishment probably kept a lot of it under wraps.



    Haha, fair enough.

    Shia accept the quran fully. Messengers of Allah might have meant other prophets and their companions visiting Lut. We are already told that the prophets of that era had close relations, since Lut used to travel with and visit Awraham. The sunni shia split is pretty much what you called it, but since the compilations of hadith were written after the split, there are sunni books and shia books - and we consider our books differently than the sunnis consider theirs. Modern sunnis usually treat the 6 main sunni books as gospel, as if they can't err despite the contradictions. The shia accept hadiths that we consider reliable from any book, and as a result have not tried to produce books with 'purely' authentic hadiths, with our main compilations like Al Kafi containing maybe 90% da'eef or weak narrations.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    From the book The Qur'an and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible? by Dr. Zakir Naik:

    "EMBRYOLOGY

    A group of Muslim Scholars, under the direction ofan eminent Yemani Scholar, Sheikh Abdul MajidAzzindani, collected information concerningembryology and other sciences in the Qur'an andundisputed Hadith and translated it into English.They then followed the Qur'anic advice:

    “If ye realise this not,
    ask of those who possessthe Message.”
    [Al-Qur’an 16:43 & 21:7]

    All the information from the Qur’an and theundisputed Hadith concerning embryology sogathered, after being translated into English andpresented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, Professor ofEmbryology and Chairman of the Department ofAnatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada.At present he is one of the highest authorities in thefield of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding thematerial presented to him. After carefullyexamining it, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned inthe Qur’an and the undisputed Hadith is in perfectconformity with modern discoveries in the field ofembryology and does not conflict with them in anyway. He added that there were a few verseshowever, on whose scientific accuracy he could notcomment. He could not say whether the statementswere true or false, since he was himself unaware ofthe information contained therein. There was alsono mention of this information in modern writingsand studies on embryology.
    One such verse is:
    “Proclaim! (or Read!)
    In the name of thy Lord
    and Cherisher, Who created –
    Created man, out of a (mere)clot of congealed blood.”
    [Al-Qur’an 96:1-2]

    The Arabic word alaq, besides meaning a congealedclot of blood, also means something that clings, aleech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether anembryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. Tocheck this out he studied the initial stage of theembryo under a very powerful microscope andcompared what he observed with the diagram of aleech. He was astonished at the strikingresemblance between the two!
    In the same manner, he acquired more informationon embryology, that was hitherto not known to him,from the Qur’an. Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questionsdealing with embryological data mentioned in theQur’an and Hadith. Noting that the informationcontained in the Qur’an and Hadith was in fullagreement with the latest discoveries in the field ofembryology, Prof. Moore said, “If I was asked thesequestions thirty years ago, I would not have beenable to answer half of them for lack of scientificinformation”.

    In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference inDammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, “It hasbeen a great pleasure for me to help clarifystatements in the Qur’an about human development.It is clear to me that these statements must havecome to Muhammad from God or Allah, becausealmost all of this knowledge was not discovereduntil many centuries later. This proves to methat Muhammad must have been a messenger ofGod or Allah”. Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, 'The Developing Human’. After acquiring new knowledge from the Qur’an, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, ‘The Developing Human’. The book was the recipient of an award forthe best medical book written by a single author.This book has been translated into several majorlanguages of the world and is used as a textbook ofembryology in the first year of medical studies.
    Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Departmentof Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor Collegeof Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims: “...theseHadiths, sayings of Muhammad (pbuh), could nothave been obtained on the basis of the scientificknowledge that was available at the time of thewriter (implying in the 7th century). It follows thatnot only is there no conflict between genetics andreligion (implying Islam) but in fact religion (Islam)may guide science by adding revelation to some of thetraditional scientific approaches . . . there existstatements in the Qur’an shown centuries later to bevalid which support knowledge in the Qur’an havingbeen derived from God.”

    DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THEBACK BONE AND THE RIBS

    “Now let man but thinkfrom what he is created!
    He is created froma drop emitted –
    Proceeding from betweenthe back bone and the ribs.”
    [Al-Qur’an 86:5-7]

    In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of themale and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries,begin their development near the kidney betweenthe spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stopin the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles)continue their descent before birth to reach thescrotum through the inguinal canal. Even inadulthood after the descent of the reproductiveorgans, these organs receive their nerve supply andblood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is inthe area between the backbone (spinal column) andthe ribs. The lymphatic drainage and the venousreturn also go to the same area.

    NUTFAH – MINUTE QUANTITY OFLIQUID

    The Glorious Qur’an mentions no less than eleventimes that the human being is created from nutfah,which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickleof liquid that remains after emptying a cup. This ismentioned in several verses of the Qur’an including22:5 and 23:13. Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required for fertilising the ovum. This means that only 1/3 millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.__________________ ________________________________ __
    SULALAH – QUINTESSENCE OF LIQUID

    “And made his progeny
    from a quintessence
    of the nature of
    a fluid despised.”
    [Al-Qur’an 32:8]

    The Arabic word sulaalah means quintessence or thebest part of a whole. We have come to know now thatonly one single spermatozoon that penetrates theovum is required for fertilization, out of the severalmillion produced by man. That one spermatozoon outof several million, is referred to in the Qur’an assulaalah. We have also come to know now that onlyone ovum is fertilized out of the tens of thousandproduced by the female. That one ovum out of tensof thousand is also refered to in the Qur'an asSulaalah. This word also means gentle extractionfrom a fluid. The fluid refers to both male andfemale germinal fluids containing gametes. Bothovum and sperm are gently extracted from theirenvironments in the process of fertilisation.

    NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ – MINGLEDLIQUIDS

    “Verily We created man
    from a drop of mingled sperm.”
    [Al-Qur’an 76:2]

    The Arabic word nutfatin am shaajin means mingledliquids. According to some commentators of theQur’an, mingled liquids refers to the male or femaleagents or liquids. After mixture of male and femalegamete, the zygote still remains nutfah. Mingledliquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that isformed of various secretions that come from variousglands. Therefore, nutfatin am shaaj, i.e. a minute quantityof mingled fluids refers to the male and femalegametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of thesurrounding fluids."

    Sorry, I didn't realise how long this is, but I couldn't help myself! This is more for the person you're answering. I feel the book explains things really well
    Ahhh god, zakir naik. Alright, I'll read this, but not without pain...


    'In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of themale and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries,begin their development near the kidney betweenthe spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stopin the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles)continue their descent before birth to reach thescrotum through the inguinal canal. Even inadulthood after the descent of the reproductiveorgans, these organs receive their nerve supply andblood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is inthe area between the backbone (spinal column) andthe ribs. The lymphatic drainage and the venousreturn also go to the same area.'

    This is grasping at straws. The arabic is very clear that the fluid itself comes from between the sulb and tara'ib, not that the gonads develop there. The translation according to arabic lexicon which say that the sulb is the male loins and the tara'ib is the womb makes a lot more sense, lol.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: December 12, 2015
Poll
Do you think parents should charge rent?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.