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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    Glad you enjoyed reading my posts. .
    I haven't yet, because if I do I won't be able to stop myself replying, and then you will reply to that, and then I will feel compelled to ya de ya de ya. That is the problem with your argumentum ad infinitum.

    But as I said I reserve the right to change my mind, so keep your eyes peeled!
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    (Original post by Simes)
    The leadership not knowing what the peasants pay for bread was the reason the French executed the 'elite' and that France is now a republic.
    A lot of good that has done them.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    We all know that Jezza scraped two E's in his A Levels and could only get into a Poly, but did you know that his support team is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge?

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/l...intellectuals/

    Has Corbyn dumbed down the Labour Party in this (and other) ways?

    With all out problems, can Britain really risk electing a leader too stupid to even get into university with a Shadow Cabinet composed of graduates of second tier universities?
    some of the smartest people in the country go to non-oxbridge uni's because they hate the elitist nature of those two uni's. I don't think by not going to oxbridge makes one less smarter than someone who does.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    some of the smartest people in the country go to non-oxbridge uni's because they hate the elitist nature of those two uni's. I don't think by not going to oxbridge makes one less smarter than someone who does.
    Some do, I agree. And it is not my case that red brick students are ipso facto less intelligent than Oxbridge ones. Some may be much much more so, in individual cases.

    But considering how small these two universities are compared to the total population of students

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_enrollment

    ...their dominance in British political life is extraordinary.

    There have been 29 Prime Ministers since Robert Peel (the first "modern" PM) inclusive. More than half of them attended just one of those two universities.

    You might say that this encompasses a period before the existence of most of the red bricks. (If London and Durham are redbrick?) That is true, but during the twentieth century the red bricks have educated millions of students over the decades.

    The number of redbrick Prime Ministers? Zero.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Some do, I agree. And it is not my case that red brick students are ipso facto less intelligent than Oxbridge ones. Some may be much much more so, in individual cases.

    But considering how small these two universities are compared to the total population of students

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_enrollment

    ...their dominance in British political life is extraordinary.

    There have been 29 Prime Ministers since Robert Peel (the first "modern" PM) inclusive. More than half of them attended just one of those two universities.

    You might say that this encompasses a period before the existence of most of the red bricks. (If London and Durham are redbrick?) That is true, but during the twentieth century the red bricks have educated millions of students over the decades.

    The number of redbrick Prime Ministers? Zero.
    Mahatma Ghandi went to UCL. He was the Indian PM.

    You don't need to be smart to be a politician - everyone knows that

    Don't get me wrong, I dislike Imperial as it's full of snobs, but there are a lot of people there that are smarter than oxbridge people. There was this girl that posted a message on here a few weeks ago and she said she rejected Cambridge for imperial because she wanted to stay in london. She'd doing a phd in theoretical physics or something. Some people give a bigger **** about where they live, not about the prestige of oxbridge.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Some do, I agree. And it is not my case that red brick students are ipso facto less intelligent than Oxbridge ones. Some may be much much more so, in individual cases.

    But considering how small these two universities are compared to the total population of students

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_enrollment

    ...their dominance in British political life is extraordinary.

    There have been 29 Prime Ministers since Robert Peel (the first "modern" PM) inclusive. More than half of them attended just one of those two universities.

    You might say that this encompasses a period before the existence of most of the red bricks. (If London and Durham are redbrick?) That is true, but during the twentieth century the red bricks have educated millions of students over the decades.

    The number of redbrick Prime Ministers? Zero.
    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    x
    @chocolate hottie, your digging skills never cease to amaze me. This is in spite of the entire premise of your thread being torn apart over and over again.

    Firstly, Neville Chamberlain and Stanley Baldwin attended Mason College (a late 19th century university that was incorporated into the University of Birmingham). Even by your confused definition of redbrick, Mason College would fall firmly and indisputably into that category.

    Secondly, from the outset you have (erroneously) used the term redbrick as being synonymous with non-Oxbridge, and in fact your most recent post implies similar thinking with the way your frame Prime Ministers; whether this is unintentional/thoughtless or intentional/deceitful is anyone's guess. If this is indeed the case, then Gordon Brown would also fall into that category, having been educated at Edinburgh

    And you really don't want to tie yourself in further knots by your flexible definition of redbrick, flipping to how it suits you. From your original post, you have said that that Jeremy Corbyn's shadow Cabinet "is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge". If you actually look at the make up of the Shadow Cabinet, you will find that only 10 were educated at redbricks (and that is even being generous to you, since this is including 3 who were educated at Edinburgh, and 2 from Durham): these are Heidi Alexander (Durham), Jon Trickett (Leeds), Lisa Nandy (Newcastle), Ian Murray (Edinburgh), Kerry McCarthy (Liverpool), Kate Green (Edinburgh), Michael Dugher (Notthingham), Luciana Berger (Birmingham), Catherine McKinnell (Edinburgh), Jon Ashworth (Durham). Which again brings us back to your habit of lying, since 10 members of the shadow cabinet attended Oxbridge. How you can stand by your original claim of the shadow cabinet being "almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge" is just beyond me. Leaving aside that the basis of your criticism is just untrue, the premise of your criticism has also been shot to pieces.

    @rock_climber86, this poster has been the source of a huge amount of entertainment on this thread, though the thread is now probably too long for you to read through to appreciate this.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    @chocolate hottie, your digging skills never cease to amaze me. This is in spite of the entire premise of your thread being torn apart over and over again.

    Firstly, Neville Chamberlain and Stanley Baldwin attended Mason College (a late 19th century university that was incorporated into the University of Birmingham). Even by your confused definition of redbrick, Mason College would fall firmly and indisputably into that category.

    Secondly, from the outset you have (erroneously) used the term redbrick as being synonymous with non-Oxbridge, and in fact your most recent post implies similar thinking with the way your frame Prime Ministers; whether this is unintentional/thoughtless or intentional/deceitful is anyone's guess. If this is indeed the case, then Gordon Brown would also fall into that category, having been educated at Edinburgh

    And you really don't want to tie yourself in further knots by your flexible definition of redbrick, flipping to how it suits you. From your original post, you have said that that Jeremy Corbyn's shadow Cabinet "is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge". If you actually look at the make up of the Shadow Cabinet, you will find that only 10 were educated at redbricks (and that is even being generous to you, since this is including 3 who were educated at Edinburgh, and 2 from Durham): these are Heidi Alexander (Durham), Jon Trickett (Leeds), Lisa Nandy (Newcastle), Ian Murray (Edinburgh), Kerry McCarthy (Liverpool), Kate Green (Edinburgh), Michael Dugher (Notthingham), Luciana Berger (Birmingham), Catherine McKinnell (Edinburgh), Jon Ashworth (Durham). Which again brings us back to your habit of lying, since 10 members of the shadow cabinet attended Oxbridge. How you can stand by your original claim of the shadow cabinet being "almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge" is just beyond me. Leaving aside that the basis of your criticism is just untrue, the premise of your criticism has also been shot to pieces.

    @rock_climber86, this poster has been the source of a huge amount of entertainment on this thread, though the thread is now probably too long for you to read through to appreciate this.
    Who are you referring to (as having entertainment value?) chocolate hottie?
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Who are you referring to (as having entertainment value?) chocolate hottie?
    Yes. Naturally it wouldn't be you, since you only just joined the thread
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    Yes. Naturally it wouldn't be you, since you only just joined the thread
    I'm working from home and am bored of my job so i'll read through this thread from the start.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Jezza is on the front page of the Sunday Times this morning, providing yet more evidence that he is too stupid to be our next Prime Minister. He just can't help himself!

    In a youtube video from the Morning Star (do they still exist, who knew?) he is filmed saying "I am not sure what there is to commemorate about the First World War."

    Next week he will have to lay a wreath at the Cenotaph in the annual commemoration ceremony, because that is what Leaders of the Opposition do.

    The Tories are being soft on Corby because they want him to remain in post but their red top friends will go to town on this when the time is right.

    If you wanted to find an issue that resonates more with the public at the level of the gut, it would be harder to think of one than this. WW1 is a national wound that is still not fully healed to this day. Our grandfathers and great great grandfathers fought and died by the millions, whole streets being decimated in single days, and there is STILL a visceral need by many to honour them. He will cause great offence and disgust when these words are publicised widely, which they will be, fear not of that.

    The narrative is (and will be till he is defeated) that Corbyn is unpatriotic. Comments like this are a gift. When you see the next opinion poll with Labour plunging still further think back to statements like this for the reason why..

    He may sincerely think this, no doubt he does. But you don't express such sentiments publicly if you ever want the party you represent to become the Government of the nation. There is nothing to gain, everything to lose.

    Saying such a thing about an issue so emotive in our political culture was unbelievably, incredibly, unimaginably stupid. But then that is Corbyn, thick as two short planks.
    Are you saying he is stupid because his position on remembrance is stupid?

    Or are you saying he is stupid because it is strategically a poor political move to not loyally toe the line of remembrance?
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)

    Firstly, Neville Chamberlain and Stanley Baldwin attended Mason College (a late 19th century university that was incorporated into the University of Birmingham). Even by your confused definition of redbrick, Mason College would fall firmly and indisputably into that category.

    Secondly, from the outset you have (erroneously) used the term redbrick as being synonymous with non-Oxbridge, and in fact your most recent post implies similar thinking with the way your frame Prime Ministers; whether this is unintentional/thoughtless or intentional/deceitful is anyone's guess. If this is indeed the case, then Gordon Brown would also fall into that category, having been educated at Edinburgh

    And you really don't want to tie yourself in further knots by your flexible definition of redbrick, flipping to how it suits you. From your original post, you have said that that Jeremy Corbyn's shadow Cabinet "is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge". If you actually look at the make up of the Shadow Cabinet, you will find that only 10 were educated at redbricks (and that is even being generous to you, since this is including 3 who were educated at Edinburgh, and 2 from Durham): these are Heidi Alexander (Durham), Jon Trickett (Leeds), Lisa Nandy (Newcastle), Ian Murray (Edinburgh), Kerry McCarthy (Liverpool), Kate Green (Edinburgh), Michael Dugher (Notthingham), Luciana Berger (Birmingham), Catherine McKinnell (Edinburgh), Jon Ashworth (Durham). Which again brings us back to your habit of lying, since 10 members of the shadow cabinet attended Oxbridge. How you can stand by your original claim of the shadow cabinet being "almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge" is just beyond me. Leaving aside that the basis of your criticism is just untrue, the premise of your criticism has also been shot to pieces.

    @rock_climber86, this poster has been the source of a huge amount of entertainment on this thread, though the thread is now probably too long for you to read through to appreciate this.
    OK. I'll bite, this time.

    Neville Chamberlain didn't go to a redbrick university. His educational institution was not a university at the time, so he didn't go to university at all. You are committing a logical fallacy again.

    You are correct, it eventually BECAME part of Birmingham University, funnily enough created by his own father, Joseph.not that long after Neville left.

    Joe didn't think that much of Neville, his hopes were invested in the elder (half) brother Austen, educated at Cambridge, a serious politician but never PM . Since Neville eventually (by most people's estimations) became one of the worst Prime Ministers in our history it looks like he knew, sadly only too well, his younger son's failings.

    Why Austen never became PM himself (he very nearly did) is a fascinating story in itself, but one that is too long for this thread.

    Stanley Baldwin went to Cambridge and got a Third. His father said to him
    when he heard the news "don't get a third in life." And he didn't, he was a good (if underestimated) PM.

    Why did you not mention this? Were you ignorant or were you lying?

    Edinburgh (your research wasn't good it actually produced two PM's during the period I cited not one) is an ancient university founded in 1582, not a redbrick. During the Scottish Enlightenment it arguably far overshadowed Oxford and Cambridge,.

    The definition of that latter is a little opaque, it is true, but few I think would argue that Edinburgh falls within it.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    I'm working from home and am bored of my job so i'll read through this thread from the start.
    Enjoy!
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    Are you saying he is stupid because his position on remembrance is stupid?

    Or are you saying he is stupid because it is strategically a poor political move to not loyally toe the line of remembrance?
    Why don't you work out for yourself what I was saying?

    Maybe you can work out the meaning of the below sentence. Give it a good old parse?

    I AM BORED OF ARGUING THE TOSS WITH YOU.
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Mahatma Ghandi went to UCL. He was the Indian PM.
    The Gandhi who went to UCL never became PM, but the other Gandhi who became PM went to Somerville College in Oxford.
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    (Original post by Bupdeeboowah)
    The Gandhi who went to UCL never became PM, but the other Gandhi who became PM went to Somerville College in Oxford.
    Oh **** - brain fade moment. Thanks for pointing out that he died before he could be pm!!!
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    OK. I'll bite, this time.

    Neville Chamberlain didn't go to a redbrick university. His educational institution was not a university at the time, so he didn't go to university at all. You are committing a logical fallacy again.

    You are correct, it eventually BECAME part of Birmingham University, funnily enough created by his own father, Joseph.not that long after Neville left.
    You're astounding in your in inability to accept when you are wrong.

    You do realise that in the 19th century the distinction between university and university college was merely a formality (Mason College was a university college). It reflected that the latter was a place where the student studied and was assessed for the entirety of their time, but received their degree from a designated university.

    Your feeble attempt to deflect your error would be as silly as somebody trying to say that UCL (University College London) is not a university. I mean, so you actually enjoy being laughed at and looking like a fool?

    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Joe didn't think that much of Neville, his hopes were invested in the elder (half) brother Austen, educated at Cambridge, a serious politician but never PM . Since Neville eventually (by most people's estimations) became one of the worst Prime Ministers in our history it looks like he knew, sadly only too well, his younger son's failings.

    Why Austen never became PM himself (he very nearly did) is a fascinating story in itself, but one that is too long for this thread.
    All pretty irrelevant. But then again, you probably need to pad out your post with irrelevance to try and make your silly points feel less silly

    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Stanley Baldwin went to Cambridge and got a Third. His father said to him
    when he heard the news "don't get a third in life." And he didn't, he was a good (if underestimated) PM.

    Why did you not mention this? Were you ignorant or were you lying?
    Because you claimed that there existed no redbrick Prime Minister. And this is incorrect.

    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Edinburgh (your research wasn't good it actually produced two PM's during the period I cited not one) is an ancient university founded in 1582, not a redbrick. During the Scottish Enlightenment it arguably far overshadowed Oxford and Cambridge,.

    The definition of that latter is a little opaque, it is true, but few I think would argue that Edinburgh falls within it.
    I would quite agree that Edinburgh is not a redbrick.

    However, you have throughout this thread implied that redbrick was synonymous with non-Oxbridge. Indeed you previous post talked about how 29 Prime Minister within a certain period attended Oxbridge, then went on to state (erroneously) that there were no redbrick Prime Ministers. Like I said, whether you implied this Oxbridge/redbrick dichotomy of universities out of laziness (unintentional) or deception (intentional) is anyone's guess, but I strongly feel it would be the latter.

    So since you don't accept Edinburgh as a redbrick, which I would agree is the correct position (though is quite irrelevant now, since the ancient universities, redbrick universities and glass plate universities all form the top universities below Oxbridge, and indeed many redbrick and glass plate universities rank better than Edinburgh and other ancient universities). But how do you now reconcile your claim that Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet is "is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge"?, when in fact there are more Oxbridge graduates than redbrick graduates (10 of the former, 7 of the latter)? Claims of rhetorical exaggeration doesn't fit here sorry.
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    (Original post by Melonlemon)
    Insightful but very prejudiced. Where's the infamous lefty tolerance?

    Personally I appreciate a wide range of views from the whole of society rather than picking and choosing on the basis of their upbringing and bank balance.
    Then why are you prokoting the over representation of the super rich and oxbridge types compared to their percentage of the population?
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    (Original post by rock_climber86)
    Oh **** - brain fade moment. Thanks for pointing out that he died before he could be pm!!!
    He was 78 when he died, and never once wanted to become the prime minister or president of India...
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Why don't you work out for yourself what I was saying?

    Maybe you can work out the meaning of the below sentence. Give it a good old parse?

    I AM BORED OF ARGUING THE TOSS WITH YOU.
    Because I was giving you the change to get yourself out of yet another hole you had dug yourself

    If you believe he is stupid based on the perspective of political strategy and that public announcements trivialising the remembrance is quite an unpopular move, then you are omitting a crucial fact. That is that he said these things two and half years ago.

    Now two and a half years ago, Jeremy Corbyn was a fringe long-term backbencher. He, nor anybody, would have considered the possibility of being leader of the Labour Party. In fact even at nomination and for sometime after, he considered himself a candidate to generate debate and didn't consider himself a credible possible winner.

    So there is little to say that he was stupid two and a half years when he said these words, since back then he was just an MP for North Islington. I mean, there was no fall out from him saying this at the time, indicating it could hardly be a stupid move (in fact they are probably the sort of words that champagne socialists in Islington love to hear).

    So again, we are seeing that you cannot provide grown up or logical political analysis, with all you being able to do is churn our simplistic rhetoric sometimes even based on lies, and in most cases based on huge distortions of the truth. It speaks volumes for the psyche of UKIP supporters that this is what makes them tick and how they form their opinions.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)

    Because you claimed that there existed no redbrick Prime Minister. And this is incorrect.


    Sorry, your attempted refutation was based on a logical fallacy and a combination of either ignorance or deceit.

    Mason College was not a "redbrick" university when Chamberlain (and Baldwin) attended. IT WAS NOT EVEN A UNIVERSITY.

    As for Baldwin answer me two questions.

    1. How long did Baldwin actually spend at Mason College?

    2. Were you unaware that he attended Trinity College Cambridge, or were you lying (by omission) when you didn't refer to that and claimed him as a redbrick Prime Minister?
 
 
 
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