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Is it time Europe bans Islam & muslim immigration? watch

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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Yes but that is true of any political actor.

    We don't believe Western propaganda when it said Saddam had 45 minute missiles and he was the worst dictator in the world whom we needed to intervene on on humanitarian grounds. We mostly figure that Western interests intended to gain control over oil fields.

    Similarly I see no reason to take the ISIS lot particularly at their word or refrain from analysing their motives based on political expediency.
    I'm not saying we shouldn't analyse their motives because of political expediency. And I don't assume the thing in bold about the Iraq War either. If you're going to do it, at least call it what it is: speculation, not analysis. As far as I see it, you cannot advance the argument that we need to unite with Muslims because IS wants to create division with this attack if you don't have evidence for the latter. That just looks like trying to further one's view with dodgy reasoning. It doesn't really stand to reason to cite one example where people wrongly believe something without hard evidence and using that to justify doing so in this situation.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    They are right. It's time we stopped giving money to Muslim countries.

    And food and medicine and technology and all the things that make the modern world, which through its backwardness they are unable to produce themselves.

    Time to pull out of the camps stop the Aid let them survive on their own and the power of their God.
    Good luck with finding oil.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I'm not saying we shouldn't analyse their motives because of political expediency. And I don't assume the thing in bold about the Iraq War either. If you're going to do it, at least call it what it is: speculation, not analysis. As far as I see it, you cannot advance the argument that we need to unite with Muslims because IS wants to create division with this attack if you don't have evidence for the latter. That just looks like trying to further one's view with dodgy reasoning. It doesn't really stand to reason to cite one example where people wrongly believe something without hard evidence and using that to justify doing so in this situation.
    You are refusing to countenance the simplest and most obvious of political calculations. Analysis blurs into speculation, true, but it is hardly a convoluted argument. I suppose all government policy statements are now to be taken as gospel truth rather than considering the political calculations which may underlie them - speculation or no, we do this all the time and discuss it daily.

    In any case, whatever the thinking behind the attacks, if the question we are posing to ourselves is "division or unity", we should do the opposite of what ISIS want us to do. Is it likelier that they want French Muslims to unite with French non-Muslims? Or is it likelier that they want to set one against the other?
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    Banning Muslims is the most stupid solution i've come across ever, I mean seriously though if that was the most effective way it would have been implemented a long time ago.

    I mean the fact that these extremists have ridiculous ideas, I think simply banning them won't make a difference, are you going to put border patrols in the sky now too? Don't let them enter via land, but of course there are other ways.
    If they want to cause conflict and trouble they'll do it anyhow and anyway. Banning people who have no relevance to this act at all isn't going to make a difference. I mean most of the Muslim immigrants into the UK are from Asian Backgrounds, and they have absolutely no connection with ISIS. I think if Banning was really to be implemented, it should not be generalized to all Muslims, but those who may have any background possibility of radical influence.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    This is the problem with Islam:

    Its a bit like football. It is a vessel for for "togetherness" whereby followers of that faith band together and enact group instinct survival, wanting to destroy other groups (similar to rival football fans wanting to beat each other up). However, the problem is Islam takes it to the next level. Entire countries are enshrined within Islam and its devoters base their entire lives on it.

    Some TSR users have quotes in their avatars relating to Islam/Muhammed, they are obsessed with it. This obsession provides the basis for committing terrorism.
    They are entirely fanatical about this 7th century ideology. It is the word of God and it is therefore unquestionable in their eyes. Islamic scriptures are both positive and negative but to highlight that fact is construed as being offensive. If you could take the bad elements out and make Islam progressive there'd be no issue but because it is 'the word of God' this simply isn't an option, which makes the entire religion unprogressive, backward and stuck in its 7th century ways. No Muslim is going to question the words of Allah because as far as they are concerned, the negative aspects are just as relevant and right to feature as the positive aspects. When you have a book split between heaven and hell, night and day, love and hate - you will get people who see the light and use Islam as a tool for guidance in life, but you will also get the people who see the dark, the hell and wish to spread it and carry out such horrific attacks in the name of Allah. Islam is a mix of good and bad but it never wants to accept the bad aspects and whenever these things happen, it dismisses them as not being true Muslims. You simply cannot state that Islam is a religion of peace or Islam is a religion of hate. It is a religion of both and for that reason it is very hypocritical, which is why its become almost untouchable as a topic to discuss for many. Saying that Islam doesn't have bad elements is as ridiculous as saying that the 24 hour day doesn't have a period where it goes dark. Islam is night and day, a divided religion whereby the outspoken minority are screaming the loudest, metaphorically speaking.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Two suicide bombers and you aren't sure if its an Islamic attack?
    I am now that the Islamic State has claimed responsibility. Are you claiming that a suicide bombing is necessarily Islamic?
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    It's about time.

    No more.
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    That would literally solve nothing....
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    After yet more terrible terror attacks in France is it time that Europe faces reality and bans Islam & muslim immigration to Europe, muslim attacks seems never ending, 9/11, 7/7, Lee Rigby, Madrid Bombings, Belgium attacks, Rotherham Abuse, Charlie Hebdo & now more attacks in Paris.
    If you want to make this about religion and not terrorism that's fine, but you're fighting a losing battle:

    USA (Christian country)
    Iraq war (in conjunction with the UK): 134,000 Civilians directly killed

    Israel (Jewish country)
    Gaza war : 2139 Civilians killed (490 Children) in 50 days

    That's already way more than everything you have mentioned. Maybe it is these nations that need to be banning westerners and not vice versa
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    (Original post by ActuallyIDo)
    That would literally solve nothing....
    You realize liberals like you are literally killing Europe ?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Are you claiming that a suicide bombing is necessarily Islamic?
    Yes, I am. You're not?!
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    (Original post by De4thTh3K1d)
    If you want to make this about religion and not terrorism that's fine, but you're fighting a losing battle:

    USA (Christian country)
    Iraq war (in conjunction with the UK): 134,000 Civilians directly killed

    Israel (Jewish country)
    Gaza war : 2139 Civilians killed (490 Children) in 50 days

    That's already way more than everything you have mentioned. Maybe it is these nations that need to be banning westerners and not vice versa
    The US didn't kill in the name of Christianity.....

    The Israelis don't kill in the name of Judaism......

    I never lose battles.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    You are refusing to countenance the simplest and most obvious of political calculations. Analysis blurs into speculation, true, but it is hardly a convoluted argument. I suppose all government policy statements are now to be taken as gospel truth rather than considering the political calculations which may underlie them - speculation or no, we do this all the time and discuss it daily.
    There's a subtle difference between considering political calculations and outright claiming them to be true. You could say that IS might be trying to attain outcome x but it's important to be clear when making that claim that it's just speculation and that you could be entirely wrong about it should evidence to the contrary turn up.

    In any case, whatever the thinking behind the attacks, if the question we are posing to ourselves is "division or unity", we should do the opposite of what ISIS want us to do. Is it likelier that they want French Muslims to unite with French non-Muslims? Or is it likelier that they want to set one against the other?
    I don't really agree with that strategy. I'd much rather look at things myself and decide individually, instead of trying to either force myself into an alliance with everyone who's anti-IS (and may include people who aren't exactly my friends) or joining one of two or more factions. As far as your final question is concerned: of course the latter is likelier.
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    (Original post by Fidus Achates)
    They are entirely fanatical about this 7th century ideology. It is the word of God and it is therefore unquestionable in their eyes. Islamic scriptures are both positive and negative but to highlight that fact is construed as being offensive. If you could take the bad elements out and make Islam progressive there'd be no issue but because it is 'the word of God' this simply isn't an option, which makes the entire religion unprogressive, backward and stuck in its 7th century ways. No Muslim is going to question the words of Allah because as far as they are concerned, the negative aspects are just as relevant and right to feature as the positive aspects. When you have a book split between heaven and hell, night and day, love and hate - you will get people who see the light and use Islam as a tool for guidance in life, but you will also get the people who see the dark, the hell and wish to spread it and carry out such horrific attacks in the name of Allah. Islam is a mix of good and bad but it never wants to accept the bad aspects and whenever these things happen, it dismisses them as not being true Muslims. You simply cannot state that Islam is a religion of peace or Islam is a religion of hate. It is a religion of both and for that reason it is very hypocritical, which is why its become almost untouchable as a topic to discuss for many. Saying that Islam doesn't have bad elements is as ridiculous as saying that the 24 hour day doesn't have a period where it goes dark. Islam is night and day, a divided religion whereby the outspoken minority are screaming the loudest, metaphorically speaking.
    I definitely reject parts of the scripture. I've been given slack for it but who f***ing cares. I totally agree with you...
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Yes, I am. You're not?!
    No, I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't see why a non-Muslim couldn't detonate a suicide vest.
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    (Original post by Ashtar)
    You realize liberals like you are literally killing Europe ?
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    I truly believe that not all Muslims should be blamed for these kinds of acts BUT when this happens none of them are standing up saying they don't agree with it. They are silent. This is not acceptable. If these terrorists say they are acting in the name of Islam unfortunately we cannot pick and choose who is or isn't a true Muslim just because we don't like what they have done. We cannot apologise for them and say they are not Muslims, that is not how religion and belief works. A person who prays every day in church is no less a religious person than someone who believes in God but does not ever attend church. If this religion can be interpreted as inciting terror then that is a serious problem which needs urgent attention and there are enough of these acts now for me to think Muslims should not be coming through Europe because we simply don't know what is going to happen anymore. There are no Jews, Sikhs etc doing these kinds of acts in the name of their religions? Why is it always Muslims? You can't just say 'the terrorists are not Muslim', if they say they are Muslim then they are Muslims whether you like that or not.

    [e] When we were told that we were interfering with Iraq people here protested in London because we didn't want it done in our name. Why are Muslims not collaborating and doing something similar if they don't want people thinking this is their religion? If this was me I would want to take action to separate myself and my beliefs from extremists and make it clear to the world that these acts were not done in my name as a religious believer. While Muslims stay silent you are going to be blamed, no matter how unfair that is.
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    What would be the point, because now you are just assuming every Muslim wants to go round killing people when at least more than 95% of the refugees are seeking safety and just want to live their lives somewhere else because their country is going down the drain...
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    No, I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't see why a non-Muslim couldn't detonate a suicide vest.
    I didn't say they couldn't, I implied they don't.....

    99.99% of the last X thousand suicide attacks were committed by Islamic terrorists and you were sitting on the fence who did it........
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    (Original post by ActuallyIDo)
    The fact only that was your response to his (good) point says it all.
 
 
 
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