Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
x Turn on thread page Beta

Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils? watch

  • View Poll Results: Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
    Yes
    261
    36.15%
    No
    461
    63.85%

    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rockrunride)
    Well, for example at football stadiums if I were a woman I probably wouldn't want to have to compete with alcohol fuelled testosterone, so there is an argument for it - and it reduces the safe space detractors' argument to rubble - but I can definitely see it working in some instances.
    But again I think you're inserting gender into a situation in which it shouldn't matter and treating it as if it should matter. Why does whether or not someone is male or female affect whether or not they should have to deal with what you call 'alcohol fuelled testosterone'?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    I don't like communal changing rooms anyway. I think there should be cubicles for people (of all persuasions) who like their privacy.

    I've never seen the need for uniforms. I'd have school clothes and pupils can pick what they want to wear and/or combine it with normal clothes.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Implication)
    But again I think you're inserting gender into a situation in which it shouldn't matter and treating it as if it should matter. Why does whether or not someone is male or female affect whether or not they should have to deal with what you call 'alcohol fuelled testosterone'?
    Would you want to be a woman walking into a facility dominated by drunk men?

    'Here, darling, get in this cubicle with me..."
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rockrunride)
    Would you want to be a woman walking into a facility dominated by drunk men?
    Well, no. But I wouldn't want to be anyone walking into a facility dominated by drunk people. Gender doesn't come into it.


    'Here, darling, get in this cubicle with me..."
    Harassment is clearly unacceptable, and if it became a problem something would definitely have to be done about it. Segregating the toilets based on gender really is a very old-fashioned and divisive 'fix' though. It doesn't really tackle the problem; it just disguises it and creates other problems.

    Do you think this would really be that common in the situation I described though? Precisely the same can happen when the doors to the men's and women's are near to each other. Most of the the 'testosterone fuelled drunks' would probably be waiting for the urinals anyway.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    Yes the idea of gender is completely made up, you can't define gender without making sexist stereotypes to basis genders on.The concept of gender causes a lot of sexism today.I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex its due to the discrimination in gender roles, these people should be free to be whoever they are regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.If you are a certain way and you change sex because of it you are discriminating against the sex you change from and saying that if you are that sex you can't be that.
    This


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    Yes the idea of gender is completely made up, you can't define gender without making sexist stereotypes to basis genders on.The concept of gender causes a lot of sexism today.I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex its due to the discrimination in gender roles, these people should be free to be whoever they are regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.If you are a certain way and you change sex because of it you are discriminating against the sex you change from and saying that if you are that sex you can't be that.
    Well explain the difference in animals.
    Have you talked to tg people about this and had their input?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex
    Why?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    No

    A few transpeople so alter everything? **** no

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    So you would support unisex or gender-neutral facilities then?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AlteredBoy)
    Why?
    I think his point is that in an ideal society there would be no sex-based stereotypes upon which to base a definition of gender as distinct from biological sex. A person with XY chromosomes would be able to be as traditionally 'feminine' or 'womanly' as he/she liked without needing to change his/her physical appearance to more resemble what those with XX chromosomes tend to look like. And vice versa.

    I'm not sure quite this would mean with regard to gender dysphoria. I would be inclined to think that the problem would not exist in a society without sex-based prejudice and discrimination, in which gender no longer has substantial meaning.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Implication)
    So you would support unisex or gender-neutral facilities then?
    So long as they didn't require me to strip off in front of guys.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Katty3)
    So long as they didn't require me to strip off in front of guys.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Why do you think you are okay with stripping off in front of females but not 'guys'? Is their gender really relevant? Is it their assumed sexuality that matters? How would you feel in front of exclusively homosexual or asexual men? How would you feel in front of mtf or ftm transgender?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AlteredBoy)
    That's completely wrong. Gender dysphoria may well be a mental condition diagnosable through the DSM, but in no way does that make it 'made up'. Whenever I hear someone say something like that it makes me laugh. Trans people are at a higher risk of self harm or suicide than any other social group. That's not made up. The NHS has provided us with SEVEN gender identity clinics, all of which are under strain from a lack of resources whilst the patient population rises to what is thought to be between 500,000-650,000 people seeking or having competed a gender reassignment in the UK as of 2015. That fails to account for anybody that falls outside of the gender binary.
    Do us a favour and google things before you say them. Trans people have been around for centuries. People profit from trans people. There are surgeries specially developed for trans people. Do you really think that would happen if it was all just a made up chapter of our lives?
    But then the problem rises... are you now classifying them as mentally ill? Which actually in of itself has a very strong case.

    Even the argument that "gender is socially constructed" then suggests men who want to be woman are highly likely to have some kind of mental disorder or condition. There's also the issue of an extremely high number of post-op individuals returning to their original sex. Then the whole "male/female brain" idea which counters the whole "gender is socially constructed idea", also has a hint that it is another form of mental condition (rather than disorder).

    I seriously doubt it is 'made up' but at the same time we have no idea on how to treat such people. Now in an adult setting I don't think there is really an issue, but at school age, where the brain is still developing I don't really think it should be an automatic issue after school should raise just in case they have a transgendered pupil in the future. They should however take it on a case by case basis and have as little influence (positive or negative) on that individuals decision (whether or not it is a concious decision) to be transgendered.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DanB1991)
    But then the problem rises... are you now classifying them as mentally ill? Which actually in of itself has a very strong case.

    Even the argument that "gender is socially constructed" then suggests men who want to be woman are highly likely to have some kind of mental disorder or condition. There's also the issue of an extremely high number of post-op individuals returning to their original sex. Then the whole "male/female brain" idea which counters the whole "gender is socially constructed idea", also has a hint that it is another form of mental condition (rather than disorder).

    I seriously doubt it is 'made up' but at the same time we have no idea on how to treat such people. Now in an adult setting I don't think there is really an issue, but at school age, where the brain is still developing I don't really think it should be an automatic issue after school should raise just in case they have a transgendered pupil in the future. They should however take it on a case by case basis and have as little influence (positive or negative) on that individuals decision (whether or not it is a concious decision) to be transgendered.
    I'm not one to talk for the trans community as a whole, but I do feel like because gender dysphoria is a mental illness, pre-op people are mentally ill as a result. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that post-op trans people decide to detransition? I find it odd that so many would do it after surgery, since hormones are given before surgery to ensure that money isn't wasted. I cant remember who it was, but either Vilain or Gulliamon found that exposure to abnormal chemicals in the womb was a probable cause of dysphoria developing, with such individuals having their brains grow in the structure that they then identify as later in life. Schools have no input on an individuals gender identity so I don't really know what your last point is about, unless you're inferring that a gender neutral restroom could cause students to identify as a different gender? Outside school settings its still an issue, with one study finding that 70% of trans people had been harassed whilst using a gendered toilet.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Donkey******)
    I don't see how much gender neutral you can get with school uniforms, most now are trousers/skirt and a jumper/blazer (aren't they?) I see a lot of girls wearing trousers, so why should any one male by birth not be allowed to wear a skirt.

    My question is how would you address such issues at single gender schools?
    That's an interesting point you raise re single sex schools. Would these students be asked to leave?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Wewuz Hebrews)
    If you are a guy, could you request to be allowed to attend an all girls school on the grounds of sexual discrimination?
    They don't have urinals in 'all girl' schools!
    • Very Important Poster
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by DougallnDougall)
    They don't have urinals in 'all girl' schools!
    most men don't have a urinal in their house and yet still manage to piss
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    Personally the issue doesn't seem to be the school's needing to change their facilities to accommodate trans people, it is merely the schools (staff and pupils included) being educated on the matter. I am trans myself and under UK law, trans people are already protected in pretty much all of these aspects. The point it becomes an issue if when you encounter a school that is unfamiliar with the legalities surrounding these issues.

    I know of some trans guys who have gone to schools where the girls have to wear skirts as part of the uniform and they have been told off for wearing trousers (the male uniform) when by law the school has to let them present by their identified gender.

    Altering how schools structure there facilities is not the issue. The issue is education and training.

    EDIT: Just in terms of the fact people might abuse this. I think a general part of what a school should do with any trans student is have a meeting with them so the school can see how they can best support this student (my school did it with me). I think a meeting such as this could be used as a means to also make sure it isn't just a student going "Hey, I'm trans" just to abuse the facilities of the opposite gender.

    Personally at the time I had this meeting with my school, I wasn't yet ready to socially transition so I wasn't even wishing to use the female facilities. They had just heard rumours about me going through the student body and felt it was something they'd best confront sooner rather than later in case I required support.
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Implication)
    I think his point is that in an ideal society there would be no sex-based stereotypes upon which to base a definition of gender as distinct from biological sex. A person with XY chromosomes would be able to be as traditionally 'feminine' or 'womanly' as he/she liked without needing to change his/her physical appearance to more resemble what those with XX chromosomes tend to look like. And vice versa.

    I'm not sure quite this would mean with regard to gender dysphoria. I would be inclined to think that the problem would not exist in a society without sex-based prejudice and discrimination, in which gender no longer has substantial meaning.
    I personally disagree with this. I am a trans woman (born male but identify as female). As I kid I fit in with the lads quite well and by all outward appearance, how I dressed and acted I was a stereotypical lad and in all honesty, how I dress and act and what I like has not changed much since then. I never felt I identified with the male gender though. I can't pinpoint as to why I don't but I don't. Since starting transitioning, especially starting on hormones I have become a happier and more productive member of society and as I have said. For the most part I haven't really changed.

    My dysphoria was never associated to me having interests that didn't stereotypically correspond to my birth sex. My dysphoria was merely due to me not identifying as male, why I don't identify as male I don't know. But being viewed as male, having a body that was physically male caused me a lot of distress, I was very depressed and sometimes my dysphoria surfaced as quite strong anger. I really would not go back and even if gender stereotypes are erased from society, I still doubt I would have ever been happy being male.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Implication)
    but that's not the generally recognised definition of gender as distinct from sex

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_an...er_distinction
    It is illogical too refute or resign your gender. Plain and simple.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: July 10, 2017
Poll
Do you agree with the proposed ban on plastic straws and cotton buds?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.