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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Is this meant to be an argument for leaving the EU? Every other country pays our tuition fees if we go to study there. The only reason we need to pay tuition fees in the UK is because OUR GOVERNMENT has decided they'd rather give tax cuts to the obscenely rich than pay for our education.

    As for leaving without paying it off, EU immigrants contribute more to our economy than any other group.
    Do you consider the base rates of these groups? If not, use the quantifier "proportionally" or it just sounds stupid.

    And how do you divide the population?
    "immigrants" "Muslims" "Christians" "gays" lol
    Think before you speak

    You saying that last part means absolutely nothing without context and the premises on which you worked.

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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Do you consider the base rates of these groups? If not, use the quantifier "proportionally" or it just sounds stupid.

    And how do you divide the population?
    "immigrants" "Muslims" "Christians" "gays" lol
    Think before you speak

    You saying that last part means absolutely nothing without context and the premises on which you worked.
    Source. Yes, I meant proportionally. The population was divided into British natives, EEA immigrants, and non-EEA immigrants. British natives are the only group that takes more than they put in.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I'll say employment rights again.
    So what rights are the EU protecting that are so important as to be worth the massive cost and democratic deficit.

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Source. Yes, I meant proportionally. The population was divided into British natives, EEA immigrants, and non-EEA immigrants. British natives are the only group that takes more than they put in.
    They're also the only group that are here in large numbers whether they have a job or not...

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    They're also the only group that are here in large numbers whether they have a job or not...

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    Really? Because the Vote Leave campaign keep telling me that there are lots of unemployed immigrants stealing our benefits.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Really? Because the Vote Leave campaign keep telling me that there are lots of unemployed immigrants stealing our benefits.
    You do realise in work benefits exist...

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You do realise in work benefits exist...
    Yes. That's irrelevant, because it doesn't change the fact that EU migrants are 46% less likely to claim benefits, and contribute 64% more in taxes than they take out in welfare.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Yes. That's irrelevant, because it doesn't change the fact that EU migrants are 46% less likely to claim benefits, and contribute 64% more in taxes than they take out in welfare.
    Do you know who else is going to pay more in than take out? The migrants from the rest of tje world who, guess what, have a job or leave. What's the average income of a EU migrant worker? Or in other words, if we kicked all the UK nationals out who are unemployed and then strip off all the benefits in kind how far behind are the EU migrants? It's comparing apples to oranges.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Do you know who else is going to pay more in than take out? The migrants from the rest of tje world who, guess what, have a job or leave. What's the average income of a EU migrant worker? Or in other words, if we kicked all the UK nationals out who are unemployed and then strip off all the benefits in kind how far behind are the EU migrants? It's comparing apples to oranges.

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    Immigrants from the rest of the world contribute a smaller proportion and are less educated than than EU immigrants, though.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Immigrants from the rest of the world contribute a smaller proportion and are less educated than than EU immigrants, though.
    And when you split the EU migrants into western and eastern European? In some of the primary analyses they even clearly state that the western European data drags up the EU as a whole because most of those coming from France, Germany etc are well educated well paid, offsetting the lower education and pay of the majority.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So what rights are the EU protecting
    I disarmed that loaded question of yours.

    Some rights which spring to mind are:

    A minimum number of paid days off (aka: holiday/annual leave)
    Equal Pay
    Anti discrimination
    Protections for part time or fixed term workers
    Collective rights
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I disarmed that loaded question of yours.

    Some rights which spring to mind are:

    A minimum number of paid days off (aka: holiday/annual leave)
    Equal Pay
    Anti discrimination
    Protections for part time or fixed term workers
    Collective rights
    But British law grants us more holiday leave than the treaties provide.
    Nearly all of those things were passed before we even joined the EU.
    Maybe the EU can time travel, who knows?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    But British law grants us more holiday leave than the treaties provide.
    Nearly all of those things were passed before we even joined the EU.
    Maybe the EU can time travel, who knows?
    On holiday pay: The UK has a 5.6 week minimum.

    The EU says that the minimum ought to be 4 weeks. This requirement came thanks to the Working Time Regulations in 1998. Before this piece of EU law, the UK had no universal minimum paid leave.

    The UK strongly opposed these Regulations. The UK was also rather stingy even with the regulations in effect; by counting Bank Holidays as part of the 4 week minimum. This is something other European countries didn't do, and has now been rectified (resulting in the 5.6 week minimum).

    Hardly anything I said, if anything at all, was UK law before we joined the EU.
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    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7065571.html

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    http://www.reasonstovoteremain.eu/
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    that ".eu" doe...
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I disarmed that loaded question of yours.

    Some rights which spring to mind are:

    A minimum number of paid days off (aka: holiday/annual leave)
    Equal Pay
    Anti discrimination
    Protections for part time or fixed term workers
    Collective rights
    You mean the stuff covered by legislation independently passed by UK governments and where more is given than is required? Totally protected by the EU, that great bing long list of zero things where something was begrudgingly brought in because of the EU with our laws only giving the minimum required with most of Parliament just waiting for the chance to repeal...

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You mean the stuff covered by legislation independently passed by UK governments and where more is given than is required? Totally protected by the EU, that great bing long list of zero things where something was begrudgingly brought in because of the EU with our laws only giving the minimum required with most of Parliament just waiting for the chance to repeal...

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    See above - none, or very little of what I said was covered by UK legislation before the EU stepped in. Anything previously covered by UK legislation was improved by the EU - equal pay for instance (and in that case, it's a bit of a push that the UK thought of this before the EU).

    I do think that many of the rights we have gained from the EU would be at risk. You just have to look at the attitudes of the UK Government in past.

    Holiday pay - the UK government fought hard against that. Collective rights - the current government has been at war with unions and union activity since time begun. Discrimination - the current government proposed capping the amount of compensation awarded in discrimination cases. The consultation on this explained that the Government couldn't because it would be inconsistent with EU protections.

    Rights for agency/part time/ fixed term workers - previous conservative governments have fought against these, vetoing them. Only came into being after Labour took power in 1997.

    Agency workers - the UK again fought hard against this and implemented the bare minimum it could get away with. The UK government has previously thought about breaking the law and not implementing the directive giving rights to agency workers.

    I am sure that most politicians in the Brexit camp would love to see these rights go. When you look at Brexit propaganda like the movie they made, the dream seems to be of mass de-regulation.

    It is also worth pointing out that upon Brexit, a lot of the rights would just disappear. If the UK tears up the European Communities Act 1972, then the legislation made under it would be revoked. That means that Parliament would need need to set out any exceptions to this or re-legislate for the lost rights. This of course gives lots of opportunity to water them down or just do away with them entirely.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    1. Beneficial for our economy.
    Like joining the Euro would have been 'beneficial to our economy'?
    (Original post by JordanL_)

    2. We get lots of highly skilled immigrants that fill jobs British people can't fill
    Alternatively we could...you know...train our own people to do those jobs.

    This would happen anyway, even if we left the EU and we'd have more control over it.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    3. The EU is extremely progressive. They've given us most of our rights (our Human Rights, our consumer rights to refunds and working protects, our health and safety rights) and they've taken huge steps toward protecting the environment for future generations
    We had most if not all of this before we joined the EU, infact most of our rules and protections superced the EU's.

    The only one I will agree on is the environmental ones.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    4. They protect us from the corruption in our own country. The great irony about all these people harping on about "democracy" is that they've made their minds up almost entirely based on what they've read in Rupert Murdoch's tabloids. As Rupert Murdoch himself said when asked why he dislikes the EU: “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.” Fortunately for Rupert, the British public will accept whatever the Daily Mail says without question.

    If you think England is corrupt you should go to China or Russia. You probably think it's corrupt because Labour didn't win the last general election.
    Do you read the Guardian?

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    5. They make us more significant. We have more negotiating power when trading, and we're stronger in international political matters, because we're part of the EU.
    Ummmm, no. We asked for reform and changes in our relationship because we wern't happy, they told us to get lost.
 
 
 
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