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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Can we stop the equality argument feminism is a women's rights movement based on the definition and a missandrist group based on actions
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    (Original post by julydays)
    yeah totes

    problem is the pay gap isn't
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...9700041_en.pdf

    There is the law if women are not being paid enough use it.
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    Agree completely. Women in the western world already have their equality. Its countries like those in Africa, South America, the Middle East and Eastern Europe that need feminism.

    /thread
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    (Original post by julydays)
    i am so sorry that i triggered you. i never thought my simple explanation of feminism could cause horrible panic attacks and flashbacks to previous traumatic experiences. i am so sorry that you might not feel safe, hours or days later, still anxious and shook up because of your memories. can i ask what triggered you? what word or phrase reminded you of a previous abuser, or of a traumatic experience you went through? i would hate to cause such discomfort in you again, so please tell me so that i can avoid that phrase in spaces where you might frequent. i want you to feel safe, and i don't want you to have to ever have to relive your trauma.

    i have this vague feeling that no matter how many examples of economists, studies or statistics that prove the pay gap exists i show you, you're still going to dismiss them, because that's what you base your idea of a serious economist on, isn't it?

    sorry to break it to you but illegal things actually do happen all the time pretty much everywhere.

    and like..... "an individual case"????? like ok i get it, you have no interest in actual statistics or studies but like...... come on...... you can't see something that happens in literally every country on earth to a historically oppressed group and then just go "well i dont understand what these craaaaazy feminists are going on about! these are all just INdivIDUaL CaSESS" and expect people to take you seriously
    You can't be serious? I really hope you are trolling, if so, 9/11 good job.

    I'm sure you are fully aware that I was being sarcastic with the triggering part, and hence you have dedicated a pointless paragraph about how I must be sad and abused. I know you are trying to discredit any life experience I may have had by framing it against stories of women who have been abused in some form or another. So the first point to make is that you're very petty.

    Firstly, regarding your original comment. A simple Google search for the definition of feminism is the advocacy of women's rights, of course, however it is deeply rooted in the equality between BOTH sexes. Because of this, for you to basically say that a man has no right to discuss things concerning women is absolutely ridiculous - "if you are a man, your opinion on feminism doesn't mean s**t." Your tone is very condescending concerning men "sit down and listen" - I really think you need a reality check. If men are the central problem to women's rights, then surely they need to be a part of the discussion to make progress?

    2) "if you care about women you'll trust their stories and respect their experiences" - I am sorry to break it to you, but women can lie, and do (as well as any human being irrespective of gender). I hate to break it to you - but the famous phrase "innocent till proven guilty" is central here. If a woman says she has been raped then we should automatically "trust their stories"? In order for that to happen, evidence is needed. Of course, rape is abhorrent, but I cannot fathom how you think "we" should automatically trust what someone says, because that isn't how the world works. Do you know how many male lives have been ruined because women have lied and say that they raped them? Also, in Sweden, if 70 rapes a day go unreported, how can it be unreported when the woman has called a helpline or law bureau? The very nature of 'unreported' is that they do not tell anyone and keep it to themselves. Of course this happens, and oftentimes women do not immediately report through fear or shame. I get that it happens.

    Also, I am always happy for statistics. Please freely provide from a reputable source. But I think this argument has transcended that. The way I worded that may have seemed that way, but I replied in another comment to confirm - of course illegal things happen despite them being against the law.

    I just find it quite sad. Feminism was a force for good from its inception. Third wave feminism is absolute cancer, and you're only confirming it to me.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...9700041_en.pdf

    There is the law if women are not being paid enough use it.
    and that's a step in the right direction!

    but there are a lot of social and cultural aspects that play in

    like a part from the fact that women are raised into the expectation to take more responsibility regarding house work and child care, female dominated jobs are often just seen as less valuable. and women have a harder time getting the well-paying, high status jobs because often they're just seen as less capable, even if they have the exact same credentials.

    this article explains it way better than i could, and it provides some sources! (although it is written from a us pov it can still largely be applied to most other western countries)
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    (Original post by julydays)
    and that's a step in the right direction!

    but there are a lot of social and cultural aspects that play in

    like a part from the fact that women are raised into the expectation to take more responsibility regarding house work and child care, female dominated jobs are often just seen as less valuable. and women have a harder time getting the well-paying, high status jobs because often they're just seen as less capable, even if they have the exact same credentials.

    this article explains it way better than i could, and it provides some sources! (although it is written from a us pov it can still largely be applied to most other western countries)
    You ignore the fact that nature also shows women in generally prefer this.
    It is equal opportunity not results.

    Do you have a reputable source?

    Why are you saying that women who choose to stay at home aren't doing it by choice? You seem to undermine their choices.
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    (Original post by julydays)
    and that's a step in the right direction!

    but there are a lot of social and cultural aspects that play in

    like a part from the fact that women are raised into the expectation to take more responsibility regarding house work and child care, female dominated jobs are often just seen as less valuable. and women have a harder time getting the well-paying, high status jobs because often they're just seen as less capable, even if they have the exact same credentials.

    this article explains it way better than i could, and it provides some sources! (although it is written from a us pov it can still largely be applied to most other western countries)
    Do you hate freedom?
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    we need feminism because the majority of people in power - such as MPs - are still men
    there are also issues such as the fact that gay people STILL are treated like something "weird" or "odd"
    not to mention the high proportion of trans people who commit suicide or have mental issues because of transphobia... which is very much rampant in the first world as well as everywhere else
    the discrimination that minorities face may not affect you, as someone living in the first world, but that doesn't mean these issues don't exist
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    Feminism is useless in the First World. All it is today is an army of uneducated losers, who promote hate, inequality, division and discrimination through bullying governments and universities to not only censor opinions they do not like, but also to force-teach privilege and social justice classes. It is a plague, and as Margaret Thatcher rightly described it, is "poisonous". It betrays the whole nature of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. It spits in the face of the things that make our relationships beautiful- chivalry, respect and sacrifice, and defies logic and rationale. It rejects meritocracy and wants us to go back about 200 years, where people who were chosen into power had to go through a gender check. Disgusting.
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    (Original post by TrueDetective01)
    Do you hate freedom?
    depends on what you define as freedom

    "my freedom to say and do whatever i please no matter who i hurt because my personal right to spew slurs and make bad rape jokes trumps anyone else's right to life"

    vs

    "every person's right to equal opportunities. equal right to education. equal right to love. equal right to eat. equal right to feel safe. freedom by giving them the means to live a good life"

    but yeah to you i probably hate freedom xoxo
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    we need feminism because the majority of people in power - such as MPs - are still men
    there are also issues such as the fact that gay people STILL are treated like something "weird" or "odd"
    not to mention the high proportion of trans people who commit suicide or have mental issues because of transphobia... which is very much rampant in the first world as well as everywhere else
    the discrimination that minorities face may not affect you, as someone living in the first world, but that doesn't mean these issues don't exist
    Yes we need feminism not for equal opportunity but to force women and men into certain jobs whether they want to or not.

    Considering the gay population is small why should we treat it like the norm? Not discriminating ok but it is odd as it is not the majority.

    It is a much more complex issue than transphobia maybe it is the fact they feel they can never have the body they want
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    (Original post by Okojamo)
    Feminism is useless in the First World. All it is today is an army of uneducated losers, who promote hate, inequality, division and discrimination through bullying governments and universities to not only censor opinions they do not like, but also to force-teach privilege and social justice classes. It is a plague, and as Margaret Thatcher rightly described it, is "poisonous". It betrays the whole nature of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. It spits in the face of the things that make our relationships beautiful- chivalry, respect and sacrifice, and defies logic and rationale. It rejects meritocracy and wants us to go back about 200 years, where people who were chosen into power had to go through a gender check. Disgusting.
    we're not asking for a gender check. representation of women is important. women are just as qualified as men to be in positions of power
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    (Original post by julydays)
    depends on what you define as freedom

    "my freedom to say and do whatever i please no matter who i hurt because my personal right to spew slurs and make bad rape jokes trumps anyone else's right to life"

    vs

    "every person's right to equal opportunities. equal right to education. equal right to love. equal right to eat. equal right to feel safe. freedom by giving them the means to live a good life"

    but yeah to you i probably hate freedom xoxo
    Opportunity does not = results which is something you do not seem to realised.
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    (Original post by julydays)
    depends on what you define as freedom

    "my freedom to say and do whatever i please no matter who i hurt because my personal right to spew slurs and make bad rape jokes trumps anyone else's right to life"

    vs

    "every person's right to equal opportunities. equal right to education. equal right to love. equal right to eat. equal right to feel safe. freedom by giving them the means to live a good life"

    but yeah to you i probably hate freedom xoxo
    Honestly, it does sounds like you do. Wanting to put shackles on human nature for your own personal gain with the help of daddy government
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    we're not asking for a gender check. representation of women is important. women are just as qualified as men to be in positions of power
    So let the people choose! Oh wait, they already do, so stop whining. The truth is that women are more inclined to pursue careers in the social sector, like teaching, because of their maternal instinct, and men are more likely to go into competitive careers, like politics. It is biology, nothing more.
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    we're not asking for a gender check. representation of women is important. women are just as qualified as men to be in positions of power
    Who says they aren't? Because they are generally do not want to go into it does not mean they do not have the opportunity and we need equal opportunity.

    Mlk when talking about blacks in America at no point said we should have equal representation across the board he talked about opportunity and that is there and for some seats in parliament women have the advantage.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Yes we need feminism not for equal opportunity but to force women and men into certain jobs whether they want to or not.

    Considering the gay population is small why should we treat it like the norm? Not discriminating ok but it is odd as it is not the majority.

    It is a much more complex issue than transphobia maybe it is the fact they feel they can never have the body they want
    no, plenty of women want to be things such as MPS, engineers, etc. the goal of feminism is to allow women to achieve their goals just as easily as men.

    why not? it is not odd. it's like saying left handers are odd, just because there's less of them. "why should we treat it like the norm?" because same sex attraction is equally valid and just as "normal" as attraction to the opposite sex

    no, it isn't very complex. from what i've gleaned from videos made by trans people (i'm not trans myself, so i don't really know exactly), trans people know what gender they are; however, because of the traditional view of vagina = woman and penis = man, this leads to a significant majority of cis people refusing to acknowledge their correct gender, leading to trans people feeling alienated and hating their bodies.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Who says they aren't? Because they are generally do not want to go into it does not mean they do not have the opportunity and we need equal opportunity.

    Mlk when talking about blacks in America at no point said we should have equal representation across the board he talked about opportunity and that is there and for some seats in parliament women have the advantage.
    "because they generally do not want to go into it" says you, who presumably knows what all women want

    just because he never talked about it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have equal representation. which seats exactly?
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    we need feminism because the majority of people in power - such as MPs - are still men
    there are also issues such as the fact that gay people STILL are treated like something "weird" or "odd"
    not to mention the high proportion of trans people who commit suicide or have mental issues because of transphobia... which is very much rampant in the first world as well as everywhere else
    the discrimination that minorities face may not affect you, as someone living in the first world, but that doesn't mean these issues don't exist
    Jesus, you are no different from the sociopaths that run government
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    no, plenty of women want to be things such as MPS, engineers, etc. the goal of feminism is to allow women to achieve their goals just as easily as men.

    why not? it is not odd. it's like saying left handers are odd, just because there's less of them. "why should we treat it like the norm?" because same sex attraction is equally valid and just as "normal" as attraction to the opposite sex

    no, it isn't very complex. from what i've gleaned from videos made by trans people (i'm not trans myself, so i don't really know exactly), trans people know what gender they are; however, because of the traditional view of vagina = woman and penis = men, this leads to a significant majority of cis people refusing to acknowledge their correct gender.
    They have the same opportunity as men but in general there are less women who want to do this.

    I'm not saying that we should discriminate but what you are saying is rediculous if you are a Tory voter in Sunderland you are not the norm and people will say something and it is acceptable, where did I say it was not normal? I am saying that no matter what people will judge you.

    I'm not trans but from what I have saw a significant proportion is that there are much more complicated issues which you try to minimise but are highly important here.
 
 
 
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