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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this Watch

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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    Sovereignty isn't for the people though, it is for the government the people elect, I don't see how that is an abstract concept. I agree that the system needs reform, but it is better than a completely unelected european commission. Ad hominems don't help your argument either.
    We don't elect a government, we elect a parliament.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You've ignored my point, I talked about literally what would happen to southern Europe. China has 1/5 of the worlds population and is buliding coal fired power stations, if we stopped all emissions now you'd still have massive warming, we are so far past the point of being able to say, curb emissions we'll hold it off...it is fantasy. Like everything else, there's is some serious head-burying going on.
    I don't care about the so-called 'far rights' positions on climate change, it makes not an iota of difference to whats going to happen, all so-called centrists believe in fracking and wars for oil, but it's all academic, it doesn't matter where you are on the political spectrum, we will burn all the fossil fuels, and even if we tried to stop it, which is impossible because developing economies with rising populations need them, and our climate is going to heat massively. Even if we stopped all emissions, we'd heat massively over coming decades, and that is impossible, and has absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. Why do yuo keep bypassing fact or logic?Explain to me in concrete terms how EU membership would effect carbon emissions, or climate change when we and even the EU are small percentage of them, and when we are so far down that path? You can't, because it's just another platitude, a non argument shoved down Brexits throat to try and make us look like you have all the answers, dig deeper and there's no logic. Stop calling me far left please, a)It's not relevant to this debate on independence,
    b)it's total nonsense and inaccurate, not to mention a smear thrown about by enthusiastic neoliberals. Thatcher's tax rate on the rich would be extreme economic leftism nowadays, and that is an indisputable fact, that's how far you so-called moderates who claim to care about poverty have sold out, and how insane and indoctrinated we have bcome. So long a gay people marry we can create ghettos and destitute people living off communist style food donations(it's only the left that make people poor, right?) then the modern centrists/centre/left whatever, feel their mission is working.


    You're right, I should look at my associations, I should listen to the American from JP Morgan on 25mil a year when he tells me where my best interests lie.
    As opposed to listening to johnson, gove, ids, Farage and Murdoch?

    They really know where you're best interest lie.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Do you trust UKIP, Alternativ fur Deutschland, Front Nationale etc on climate change?
    The eu has a far greater track record on climate change than the Tories.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The eu has a far greater track record on climate change than the Tories.
    That's not the question I asked you. The current government perhaps does, but do you trust UKIP, AfD, FN, Golden Dawn etc on climate change?
    What's your plan for when they come to power in the EU and you can't do anything to have them removed?
    The convenient tyranny isn't so convenient any more, is it?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    That's not the question I asked you. The current government perhaps does, but do you trust UKIP, AfD, FN, Golden Dawn etc on climate change?
    What's your plan for when they come to power in the EU and you can't do anything to have them removed?
    The convenient tyranny isn't so convenient any more, is it?
    There are several other parties in the EP and other law making bodies so yes I trust the EU more than the tories.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    There are several other parties in the EP and other law making bodies so yes I trust the EU more than the tories.

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    So you trust lobbying corporations over the Tories, labour, greens, lib dems, SNP, DUP, UUP, a couple of independents, Plaid Cymru, a load of cross benchers, and some bishops (I didn't miss anybody?)

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So you trust lobbying corporations over the Tories, labour, greens, lib dems, SNP, DUP, UUP, a couple of independents, Plaid Cymru, a load of cross benchers, and some bishops (I didn't miss anybody?)

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    There are lobbying corporations here.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    There are lobbying corporations here.
    And what of nearly every other party with any form of credibility in the UK?

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We don't elect a government, we elect a parliament.
    So the cabinet isn't composed of the winning party?
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    So the cabinet isn't composed of the winning party?
    Not the same thing. Remind me, when was the vote on foreign secretary or education secretary?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    As opposed to listening to johnson, gove, ids, Farage and Murdoch?

    They really know where you're best interest lie.
    You've turned it into a personality contest again, it is no argument. You seem to be harbouring under the misapprehension that I'm voting for utopia, or blind to the fact that some people want either outcome out of self-interest(whilst some want either outcome out of better intentions) It's nothing to do with that. We could go back and forth all day if you want to talk about cynical reasons Murdoch wants to leave, or cynical reasons that many MNC's or Obama want us to stay. It's not pertinent to my decision.

    If you did want to mention personalities, Farage did not waste his energy going against an entire established consensus, being hated and pilloried when he could have been making way more money in business, so he could do something out of cynicism and not believing it. It's obvious, same with Galloway opposing Iraq-the media and political class tell you these people are evil for doing something they genuinely care about and believe in, while so many of them are just authoritarian cynics who believe in nothing, this should be apparent to people on an y part of the political spectrum. Too much consensus and look to who it suits. Surely you are able to distinguish between beliefs, disagreement over them, and someones motives?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Not the same thing. Remind me, when was the vote on foreign secretary or education secretary?
    You vote for the cabinet the party selects. You voted in the foreign secretary by voting for the party that selected them.
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    (Original post by Tabstercat)
    allow GMO to take over?
    You'll end up with a situation similar to America where GMO is widespread and labelling them is prohibited.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    You vote for the cabinet the party selects. You voted in the foreign secretary by voting for the party that selected them.
    No we didn't. We vote for the MPs. That is all. We do not vote for the Prime Minister, we do not vote for any members of the cabinet.

    We vote for an MP and if that MPs party wins a majority then that party's leader chooses the cabinet. That's a fair way from us voting for the cabinet.

    Using your analogy we voted for the Commissioner by voting for the MEPs who voted for him...
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    (Original post by otester)
    You'll end up with a situation similar to America where GMO is widespread and labelling them is prohibited.
    GMOs are not harmful, labelling is pointless, the current EU regulations on GMOs are unscientific.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No we didn't. We vote for the MPs. That is all. We do not vote for the Prime Minister, we do not vote for any members of the cabinet.

    We vote for an MP and if that MPs party wins a majority then that party's leader chooses the cabinet. That's a fair way from us voting for the cabinet.

    Using your analogy we voted for the Commissioner by voting for the MEPs who voted for him...
    Yes, we elect them MPs. However, the MP numbers decide the government. Henceforth, we elect a government.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Why do people keep making this argument and similar? We could have our own democracy, make our voice heard and boot out governments that did such things.
    The point you seem to be missing is that we haven't kicked-out successive governments who have signed us up to deals with the EU, for example. There's no reason to believe that international treaties are really in the mind of voters when it comes to elections.

    Apart from this, this is scaremongering - there is no official line on what is in the TTIP negotiations and there is no actual agreement at the moment.

    It's just so incredibly defeatist, to give in to the globalists. As for all the people who think UK is nothing compared to the EU and America, the EU is sinking and America is a mess, they will be both be utterly screwed by climate change....the UK is in a unique position to reclaim greatness. Unique.
    See my recent post about the comparative economic position of the UK.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=4150651

    Fifth biggest economy? We'll soon be down to sixth or seventh, and not long after that falling rapidly through the teens, down to a likely, eventual 22nd.

    If the EU and USA are sinking, so too is the UK. If they are screwed by climate change, then so too are we. Look at the historical charts published in The Atlantic article I reference.
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    (Original post by Tabstercat)
    GMOs are not harmful, labelling is pointless, the current EU regulations on GMOs are unscientific.
    I think the real answer is that no one really knows. While it is arguable whether GMOs are harmful to humans or animals through consumption, it is inarguable that GMOs decrease biodiversity, increase reliance upon branded pesticides and that their genes (including resistance to pesticides, pests and disease) are spread to wild relatives of the GMO crops.

    Personally I think the reason to restrict their exploitation is the latter, at least where there are wild varieties of the same crop in the same environment (ie maize in North America).
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No we didn't. We vote for the MPs. That is all. We do not vote for the Prime Minister, we do not vote for any members of the cabinet.

    We vote for an MP and if that MPs party wins a majority then that party's leader chooses the cabinet. That's a fair way from us voting for the cabinet.

    Using your analogy we voted for the Commissioner by voting for the MEPs who voted for him...
    To pretend the majority vote because of the MP rather than party and leader is laughable

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    To pretend the majority vote because of the MP rather than party and leader is laughable

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    Don't conflate why we vote, with who we vote for.
    I'm not saying we should vote for a government, but the fact is we do not.

    So to say we vote for a government is just untrue. We vote for an MP who's party leader, if the leading/majority party, gets to pick a government.
 
 
 
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