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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    Yes they are elected in by the member states. But we have such a small voice out of all of those member states and the voice is set to become smaller as more and more countries join. Likewise our 1 voice was elected by a minority of the country who flip flops on key issues and lies all the time. In addition, it seems very much to be behind closed doors so who knows what hidden incentives there are?

    I think the proof in the pudding is that when Cameron when to the EU to renegotiate he came back with sod all and that's with the threat of us leaving. Ie they don't give 2 shits about us.
    Except he didn't get sod all.

    There's a 4 year wait for full access to benefits and new unemployed EU migrants have to leave if they can't support themselves. Non Eurozone countries are also exempted from any future Eurozone bailouts.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Not sure what you are saying - are you arguing that the original referendum was misleading because there was no implication of 'sharing sovereignty' in the Common Market as it then was?
    I am saying there was no pre-joining referendum of any kind.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The reason for all the need for unanimity and the avoidance of majority voting is precisely because, when it comes to national governments, people are very defensive of their democratic rights and didn't want the EU to trump them. Therefore yes, every government has to agree or in some cases nearly all governments have to agree.

    Democracy operates at lots of different levels - local clubs and societies, national membership bodies, trade unions, councils, parliament - why should it not also operate at an international level, as it does with the EU Parliament?

    Why should democracy be limited to nation states?
    Because all of the EU constituents are vastly different; different languages, cultures, structure of economies, politics. I agree, if the countries were very similar in terms of culture and attitude like the US, it would make sense.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Except he didn't get sod all.

    There's a 4 year wait for full access to benefits and new unemployed EU migrants have to leave if they can't support themselves. Non Eurozone countries are also exempted from any future Eurozone bailouts.
    Yeah i think the key word there is full. If they could get 95% then it's a bit pointless isn't it? I don't know what the exactly % is but if it was a good deal then you bet the remain camp would be banging on about it the whole campaign, but it's been barely mentioned by them.
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    (Original post by readyornot)
    Wrong.

    Our elected MEPS have no power within the machine called Europe. They might have nice little debates, however the decisions are made behind closed doors.

    Have you got any idea who the ministers are, or the many presidents? I don't.
    And I don't ever recall being asked to vote them in. Every single time the UK has voted against a bill their voice has gone unheard.

    Who did you vote in who has any say over EU law and policy?
    We vote in MEP's and our own govt who both have a say over it.

    Yes we've lost 72 votes, but this is a selective truth that conveniently ignores the other 98% that we haven't lost.
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    (Original post by readyornot)
    Wrong.

    Our elected MEPS have no power within the machine called Europe. They might have nice little debates, however the decisions are made behind closed doors.

    Have you got any idea who the ministers are, or the many presidents? I don't.
    And I don't ever recall being asked to vote them in. Every single time the UK has voted against a bill their voice has gone unheard.

    Who did you vote in who has any say over EU law and policy?
    Do you know who your County Councillors are? Most people don't. Yet they don't demand that their town be immediately taken out of the council.

    All of these pieces of information are easily available. Not everyone is interested.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I am saying there was no pre-joining referendum of any kind.
    Is this just a myth then?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ferendum,_1975
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    Because all of the EU constituents are vastly different; different languages, cultures, structure of economies, politics. I agree, if the countries were very similar in terms of culture and attitude like the US, it would make sense.
    We are extremely similar. We have a common European culture and identity. Most people in Europe even speak English now!

    Really, you sound very out of date. We aren't still in the 19th century. Things have moved on.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We are extremely similar. We have a common European culture and identity. Most people in Europe even speak English now!

    Really, you sound very out of date. We aren't still in the 19th century. Things have moved on.
    Lol we are very similar... We just have to look at our closest neighbour France to see they have a very left wing government and we have a right leaning one to show one of the very many differences.

    EDIT 51% of Europeans speak english as their first/ as a second language. That leaves a hell of a lot that don't.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Is this just a myth then?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ferendum,_1975
    You seem to be unaware of two things: (a) that we joined the Common Market in 1973, and (b) the 1975 referendum was not about joining but staying in. There was no referendum to gain agreement for sharing sovereignty.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We are extremely similar. We have a common European culture and identity. Most people in Europe even speak English now!

    Really, you sound very out of date. We aren't still in the 19th century. Things have moved on.
    Actually I completely disagree. We have very different customs and attitudes towards things. We have different mother languages, different levels of religiosity (Eastern Europe is extremely Catholic whereas Western Europe is far more secularised), different levels of poverty and inequality, different history - and on a small-scale level we have different national dress, different traditions, different foods, different architecture, etc. The Netherlands are nothing like Italy, which is nothing like Greece etc. - this is the reason why Europe gets so many international visitors, because they want to see a huge diversity of cultures in a relatively small area.

    And a lot of British people don't even identify as European, they see themselves as British.
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

    *Poof* goes remainers main argument in smoke... Shame that news sites are not willing to give this as much attention as the fall of western civilisation by Donald Tusk.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Except he didn't get sod all.

    There's a 4 year wait for full access to benefits and new unemployed EU migrants have to leave if they can't support themselves. Non Eurozone countries are also exempted from any future Eurozone bailouts.
    So he got sweet sod all.

    He got a 4 year wait for 12 years, a temporary measure which can be struck down before it is even enacted, and the other half is stuff that europhiles claimed we already had, so he got some non binding stuff and some restatements of the status quo.

    Further, if the renegotiation was so amazing then how come we never hear about it? Oh yeah, it perfectly demonstrates why we won't be able to reform the EU as we want to.

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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

    *Poof* goes remainers main argument in smoke... Shame that news sites are not willing to give this as much attention as the fall of western civilisation by Donald Tusk.
    And their predecessor said the exact same thing, although he did also joke that he wants us to remain so they aren't left alone with the French.

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    I think Remain may well have been given the illusion of victory to give them over confidence, like with labour in the last general election.
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    (Original post by otester)
    I think vote leave may well have been given the illusion of victory to give them over confidence, like with labour in the last general election.
    I don't think there will be any of that, the leave leads in the polls kicked remains arse into gear, and their rebound will have kicked leave back into gear

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I don't think there will be any of that, the leave leads in the polls kicked remains arse into gear, and their rebound will have kicked leave back into gear

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    Damn your quick, edited comment, read again.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So he got sweet sod all.

    He got a 4 year wait for 12 years, a temporary measure which can be struck down before it is even enacted, and the other half is stuff that europhiles claimed we already had, so he got some non binding stuff and some restatements of the status quo.

    Further, if the renegotiation was so amazing then how come we never hear about it? Oh yeah, it perfectly demonstrates why we won't be able to reform the EU as we want to.

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    You're right, the other EU leaders could backtrack and withdraw their agreement after the referendum if we vote remain. Highly unlikely though IMO as the uproar would trigger another referendum with Brexit as a guaranteed result.

    The restrictions on child tax credits, housing benefit and in-work benefits are significant. If someone wants to move here to live in a tent and claim Job-seeker's Allowance then more fool them
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    You're right, the other EU leaders could backtrack and withdraw their agreement after the referendum if we vote remain. Highly unlikely though IMO as the uproar would trigger another referendum with Brexit as a guaranteed result.

    The restrictions on child tax credits, housing benefit and in-work benefits are significant. If someone wants to move here to live in a tent and claim Job-seeker's Allowance then more fool them
    With savings of a whopping £250m per annum, or only about £100 working immigrant. And they wouldn't withdraw their agreement immediately or directly, they know how to be sneaky to protect the Union and it would be struck down by the ECJ in a few years when the next eurozone crisis comes along and our support of the EU is up a bit

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    RELEASED 5 MINS AGO
    Remain: 44% (-)
    Leave: 45% (+1)
    (via Opinium, online / 20 - 22 Jun)

    ****ing come on lads we can do this just need to go to the polls now
 
 
 
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