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    (Original post by BasharAssad)
    is your caliph Ayatollah Khomenie?
    Imam Ruhullah Khomeini(rh) was just a scholar. He is a mortal human being. But he was certianly a great scholar.

    Here are the words of Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (may Allah be pleased with the good he has done for the cause of Islam globally), on Imam Khomeini(rh):



    "We went to visit the Imam, Ayatollah Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. Therewere about forty of us who waited for the Imam and the Imam came in andwas about ten meters away from where I was, and I saw the Imam. He delivered the Lecture to us for about half an hour, and it was nothing but the Quran,the man is like a computerized Quran. And the electric effect he had on everybody, his charisma, was amazing . You just look at the man and tearscome down your cheek. You just look at him and you get tears. I never saw a more handsome old man in my life, no picture, no video, no TV could doj ustice to this man, the handsomest old man I ever saw in my life was this man."

    You know there were many people with us from all over the world. And I found types and types and types of sick people, a mental sickness that is. I came across an alim from Pakistan Mauna Sahib and he thought that there was something wrong with our Shia brothers. You see in Iran when someone is lecturing and the name Khomeini is mentioned people stop andeveryone says durood on the Prophet(S) three times. But when the name Mohammad is mentioned they send durood once. And this alim from Pakistan says "look at these people just look at them. What kind of Muslims are these people. When the name Mohammad is mentioned they send durood on the Prophet(s)once but when the name Khomeini is mentioned they send Durood on KHOMEINI three times."

    I said " What do they say , what do they say in this so called 'duroodon Khomeini'. "

    He said: Peace be upon Mohammad and the family of Mohammad.

    I said " Who is Mohammad? Khomeini? Who named Khomeini as Mohammad.Their durood is on Prophet Mohammad(s) and you say it is on Khomeini."

    You know it's a sickness. There are many learned men but their mindsare so prejudiced. They are just looking for faults."

    http://www.inminds.co.uk/unity.html
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    sunni i believe shia is not correct as they pray on stone
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    (Original post by moneymitch17)
    sunni i believe shia is not correct as they pray on stone
    Shia's pray on earth dear brother. We believe according to islamic principles, you can not simply prostrate to anything, there are only certian materials you are permitted to prostrate on. We can even prostrate on leaves, and the wood of tree's among many other materials.

    "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

    http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/


    We derive this ruling from the sunnah and actions of the Prophet s.a.w and his Ahlulbayt asws, who preserved his sunnah.
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    (Original post by moneymitch17)
    sunni i believe shia is not correct as they pray on stone
    Eitherway, i come from earth brother, and i will return to earth, so additionally, prostrating on earth or that which grows from the earth to me, is also symbolic.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Shia's pray on earth dear brother. We believe according to islamic principles, you can not simply prostrate to anything, there are only certian materials you are permitted to prostrate on. We can even prostrate on leaves, and the wood of tree's among many other materials.

    "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

    http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/


    We derive this ruling from the sunnah and actions of the Prophet s.a.w and his Ahlulbayt asws, who preserved his sunnah.
    One thing I find strange though is that only sujuud is performed on the turbah.
    While the rest of the prayer is perfectly fine on carpet..etc?!
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Imam Ruhullah Khomeini(rh) was just a scholar. He is a mortal human being. But he was certianly a great scholar.

    Here are the words of Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (may Allah be pleased with the good he has done for the cause of Islam globally), on Imam Khomeini(rh):



    "We went to visit the Imam, Ayatollah Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. Therewere about forty of us who waited for the Imam and the Imam came in andwas about ten meters away from where I was, and I saw the Imam. He delivered the Lecture to us for about half an hour, and it was nothing but the Quran,the man is like a computerized Quran. And the electric effect he had on everybody, his charisma, was amazing . You just look at the man and tearscome down your cheek. You just look at him and you get tears. I never saw a more handsome old man in my life, no picture, no video, no TV could doj ustice to this man, the handsomest old man I ever saw in my life was this man."

    You know there were many people with us from all over the world. And I found types and types and types of sick people, a mental sickness that is. I came across an alim from Pakistan Mauna Sahib and he thought that there was something wrong with our Shia brothers. You see in Iran when someone is lecturing and the name Khomeini is mentioned people stop andeveryone says durood on the Prophet(S) three times. But when the name Mohammad is mentioned they send durood once. And this alim from Pakistan says "look at these people just look at them. What kind of Muslims are these people. When the name Mohammad is mentioned they send durood on the Prophet(s)once but when the name Khomeini is mentioned they send Durood on KHOMEINI three times."

    I said " What do they say , what do they say in this so called 'duroodon Khomeini'. "

    He said: Peace be upon Mohammad and the family of Mohammad.

    I said " Who is Mohammad? Khomeini? Who named Khomeini as Mohammad.Their durood is on Prophet Mohammad(s) and you say it is on Khomeini."

    You know it's a sickness. There are many learned men but their mindsare so prejudiced. They are just looking for faults."

    http://www.inminds.co.uk/unity.html
    On the topic about scholars could you please talk about Mullah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi, are his books followed and generally accepted by the majority of Shia's ?
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    Q: Can I eat from a Shia?
    A: Refrain from this. Shias and Muslims are poles apart. Hence it is not permissible to associate and freely mix with them.

    And Allah Ta’ala (الله تعالى) knows best.

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/muftionline/98385





    For those of you who don't know, i used to be bullied as a kid for being a shia, and mocked as a teenager (on occasions) in class for being a shia. I'm not surprised now, finding this horrific fatwah on islamqa. No doubt the mouth which has given this fatwah is as secterian as they come.

    No wonder i've been called a kaffir on ummah forum, and abused to no ends here by some people (i am not referring to anyone who i have debated with on this paticular thread), as well as referred to as a 'radhida' several times.

    Let me stand up and speak proudly. The Ijma among shia ulema is that you can and should associate and mix with sunni's, that you absolutely can eat from them, and that you can marry them. Put that aside, their scholars are muslim , and you can pray behind their imams.

    That is the school of Muhammed wa ale Muhammed asws.
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    (Original post by Mizzeeboy)
    On the topic about scholars could you please talk about Mullah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi, are his books followed and generally accepted by the majority of Shia's ?
    Not everything. He is well respected, but as a human being, and like all scholars, many differ with him on certian things.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    One thing I find strange though is that only sujuud is performed on the turbah.
    While the rest of the prayer is perfectly fine on carpet..etc?!
    It's not strange at all in my eyes, considering the fact that Sujood, where the forhead touches the ground is the main part of the prostration either way.

    Additionally, what Allah azwj has commanded, and what is in the sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w we obey.

    No doubt, many non-muslims find it strange that we take our two hands and raise them to our heads, kneel, bow, rise, bow, stand etc.

    Or that we take stones and pelt pillars in hajj.

    The laws of Allah azwj, are his laws. If Allah azwj has ordained through the sunnah that, the main part of prostration (sujood) is to be done on certian materials, then that we hear, and we obey.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    It's not strange at all in my eyes, considering the fact that Sujood, where the forhead touches the ground is the main part of the prostration either way.

    Additionally, what Allah azwj has commanded, and what is in the sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w we obey.

    No doubt, many non-muslims find it strange that we take our two hands and raise them to our heads, kneel, bow, rise, bow, stand etc.

    Or that we take stones and pelt pillars in hajj.

    The laws of Allah azwj, are his laws. If Allah azwj has ordained through the sunnah that, the main part of prostration (sujood) is to be done on certian materials, then that we hear, and we obey.
    Point to me please the verse that commands this?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Q: Can I eat from a Shia?
    A: Refrain from this. Shias and Muslims are poles apart. Hence it is not permissible to associate and freely mix with them.

    And Allah Ta’ala (الله تعالى) knows best.

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/muftionline/98385





    For those of you who don't know, i used to be bullied as a kid for being a shia, and mocked as a teenager (on occasions) in class for being a shia. I'm not surprised now, finding this horrific fatwah on islamqa. No doubt the mouth which has given this fatwah is as secterian as they come.

    No wonder i've been called a kaffir on ummah forum, and abused to no ends here by some people (i am not referring to anyone who i have debated with on this paticular thread), as well as referred to as a 'radhida' several times.

    Let me stand up and speak proudly. The Ijma among shia ulema is that you can and should associate and mix with sunni's, that you absolutely can eat from them, and that you can marry them. Put that aside, their scholars are muslim , and you can pray behind their imams.

    That is the school of Muhammed wa ale Muhammed asws.
    Point being ahl al-sunnah call for the opposite on all shia?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    It's not strange at all in my eyes, considering the fact that Sujood, where the forhead touches the ground is the main part of the prostration either way.

    Additionally, what Allah azwj has commanded, and what is in the sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w we obey.

    No doubt, many non-muslims find it strange that we take our two hands and raise them to our heads, kneel, bow, rise, bow, stand etc.

    Or that we take stones and pelt pillars in hajj.

    The laws of Allah azwj, are his laws. If Allah azwj has ordained through the sunnah that, the main part of prostration (sujood) is to be done on certian materials, then that we hear, and we obey.
    I appreciate that perhaps this might not be in your hadith collections (or perhaps it is, but I don't have time to check), but if we look at this hadith which is in our Sahih collections, it would strongly imply (at least from the Sunni perspective) that it would be nonsensical to single out the forehead alone for prostrating on earth:

    Ibn ‘Abbaas (RA) said that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: the forehead – and he pointed to his nose – the hands, the knees and the ends of the feet (i.e., toes).”

    If one were to prostrate with any of these 7 bones off of the ground, then the prayer would be invalidated, so there is no prominence placed upon the forehead alone. Is there anything authentic to state that the forehead should be singled out?
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Point to me please the verse that commands this?
    Allah azwj has not explicitly stated in the Quran of the details of everything. It is thus, up to the Prophet s.a.w to elucidate on. Therefore asking me for a verse which explicitly says 'you may only prostrate on the following, or following catagories', with due respect, is not even the method asharite, atari's/salafi's, use.

    Thus, one must refer to the Sunnah on these matters, what they deem to be from the authentc sunnah ofcourse.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    I appreciate that perhaps this might not be in your hadith collections (or perhaps it is, but I don't have time to check), but if we look at this hadith which is in our Sahih collections, it would strongly imply (at least from the Sunni perspective) that it would be nonsensical to single out the forehead alone for prostrating on earth:

    Ibn ‘Abbaas (RA) said that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: the forehead – and he pointed to his nose – the hands, the knees and the ends of the feet (i.e., toes).”

    If one were to prostrate with any of these 7 bones off of the ground, then the prayer would be invalidated, so there is no prominence placed upon the forehead alone. Is there anything authentic to state that the forehead should be singled out?
    I believe you have misunderstood me. There is no doubt, the seven must touch the ground. I never implied they they shouldn't, and the same hadith can also be found in shia collections. In this matter, i am not disputing that in anything.

    This isn't in direct relation, it is more off-topic, but i wanted to share the following ayah:

    Noble Quran:
    "Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration."

    However it is essential for me to clarify one thing - i did not say one should prostrate on earth(or certian groups of things that it is permissible to do sujodo on) because the honour of the forehead prostrating on earth and the mark one can obtain thus.

    Rather, i believe, it is the authentic Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, verified by ahadith, i deem to be authentic, that what sujood must be done on does not encompass everything and anything, and that there are certian materials that one can prostrate on.

    Therefore i do not add my own opinion to the issue, or whims, or desires. I hear, and i obey, what has been related to me of the authentic sunnah, and he fact that it is the authentic sunnah is sufficient a reason for me to do it, without getting into niche argumentation on the issue.

    Thus, the only necessary, and sufficient reasons for me for prostrating my forhead on certian materials (and not anything and everything) is because i deem that to be from the authentic sunnah.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Allah azwj has not explicitly stated in the Quran of the details of everything. It is thus, up to the Prophet s.a.w to elucidate on. Therefore asking me for a verse which explicitly says 'you may only prostrate on the following, or following catagories', with due respect, is not even the method asharite, atari's/salafi's, use.

    Thus, one must refer to the Sunnah on these matters, what they deem to be from the authentc sunnah ofcourse.
    With all due respect, do you read what you post or you just write the first thing that comes to your mind?
    Are you not the one who said:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    It's not strange at all in my eyes, considering the fact that Sujood, where the forhead touches the ground is the main part of the prostration either way.

    Additionally, what Allah azwj has commanded, and what is in the sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w we obey.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    With all due respect, do you read what you post or you just write the first thing that comes to your mind?
    Are you not the one who said:
    This is extremely disrespectful. An approach with more adhab would have been , again, to apply husnuzon and relay to me the fact you feel i made contradictory statements.

    Eitherway, i will address what you have asked.

    By saying that 'What Allah has commanded', it is not the same as saying that such a thing has been explicitly stated in the Quran.

    Rather, whatever the Prophet s.a.w ordained halal, and haram, are from the commands of Allah azwj, even if such things are not explicitly named and elucidated on in the Quran.

    I advise you to follow zamestanehs example in dialouge. He makes his points more powerfully than anyone else on these boards, with the exception of ash, and does so civily.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    Listen.
    You are no no position to teach me anything.
    Your post itself is no adhab or akhlaaq. teach yourself before you teach others.
    Saying you contradict yourself is rude?
    Ya subhanAllah.
    Aklaaq and adhab would be to accept the error and try to reword the post.
    There was nothing rude about my post, and if your skin is as thick as egg shells and assume offence from everyone, you certainly need to apply husnuzaan you speak of to others.
    As Allah says:
    Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)?
    So please look into yourself, before pointing at others.
    Ps please feel free to write a 5000 word essay laced with victim complex and report to the mods.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Listen.
    You are no no position to teach me anything.
    Your post itself is no adhab or akhlaaq. teach yourself before you teach others.
    Saying you contradict yourself is rude?
    Saying i contradict myself is not rude brother, but saying (and i quote your post):

    "With all due respect, do you read what you post or you just write the first thing that comes to your mind?"

    On a thread where we are having a semi-serious discussion on some key aspects of Islam and our disagreements is very disrespectful.
    Asking me if i simply post the first thing that comes into my head, in any language, and in all societies would be considered a very insulting statement.

    I was expecting an apology, a retraction, and so we could both dust off and move on, but you have taken another route, it seems.




    Ya subhanAllah.
    Aklaaq and adhab would be to accept the error and try to reword the post.
    There was no error brother. I was right when i said 'Allah azwj commanded'. This is because the commands of Allah azwj are not the same as that which he has revealed in the Noble Quran.

    Thus, stating that Allah azwj has commanded us to prostrate on certian materials only, is not the same as saying he has explicitly stated this in the Noble Quran. Rather, whatever is in the sunnah and whatever Muhammed s.a.w commanded is what Allah azwj commanded.


    There was nothing rude about my post, and if your skin is as thick as egg shells and assume offence from everyone, you certainly need to apply husnuzaan you speak of to others.
    As Allah says:
    Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practise it)?
    So please look into yourself, before pointing at others.
    Really, there is no need for you to be speaking like this. I have already forgiven you, and i won't compel you to do so, but i think you ought to be honest and acknowledge that saying:

    "With all due respect, do you read what you post or you just write the first thing that comes to your mind?"

    Is considered highly offensive across all cultures and languages. Telling someone on a thread where they engage with you on serious discussion if that person actually reads what they post, or merely writes the first thing that comes into their mind is very disrespectful. You are basically telling me if i write with consideration, or write thoughtlessly , typing down the first thing that come into my mind.


    Ps please feel free to write a 5000 word essay laced with victim complex and report to the mods.
    Again, there is no need for that kind of sarcasm. If you had been called abusive names like rafidha, referred to as a deviant, abused, called a kaffir, bullied in real life and online, harassed by many users, some of whom even openly admitted they had abused me to such an extent, they asked me for forgiveness on the I-Soc, you would also understand my position.

    Again, i have to repeat, asking someone if they think about what they are saying, or if they just blurt out the first thing that pops into their head is offensive. I hope you can acknowledge that.

    I must stress, the main aim of my discussion is to do away with discord, secterianism, and misunderstanding. I hope through this, each part is able to better understand the position of the other better.

    Really brother Al-Farhan, i don't want enimity for you, considering how kind you have been to me, especially when i was going through difficulties in may/june. To your credit, while undoubtedly i feel at times, especially recently, you have unfairly attacked me, and perhaps in the distant past when you called me a paid-agent, you have atleast, unlike some users here, not referred to me in an abusive way, actually replied to my salams, actually showed intelligence and tact in our discussions. I hope you can acknowledge why i found your statement offensive, why i do not appreciate the follow up sarcasm, and why i want us to return to what i feel was a proffesional and respectful dialouge before this all.
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    1.Narration from Sa’eed ibn Jubair, who said: "I was sitting with ibn Abbas at Arafat when he said: Why don’t I hear people reciting Talbiyya? I said: ”Out of fear of Muawiyah”Ibn Abbas got out of his tent and said: ”Labbayk Allahumma labbayk, labbayk Allahumma labbayk. They have left the sunnah in the hatred of Ali"

    Ref: Sahih Sunan al-Nisai’, investigated by al-Albani, volume 2 page 343, hadith number 3006

    Al-Albanis comment: This hadith is "Sahih"

    And: http://sunnah.com/urn/1081720
    Grade: Hasan (Darussalam)




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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    .
    Following our previous discussion on the Incident between Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, and Uthman bin Affan.

    From Muwatta Malik: http://sunnah.com/urn/407560 Yahya related to me from Malik, from Jafar ibn Muhammad, from hisfather, that al-Miqdad ibn al-Aswad once went to see AIi ibn AbiTalibat as-Suqya, where he was feeding some young camels of his with amash of meal and leaves, and he said to him, "This man Uthman ibnAffan is telling people that they cannot do hajj and umra together."
    Al-Miqdad said, "Ali ibn Abi Talib went off with bits of mealand leaves on his forearms - and I shall never forget the sight of themeal and the leaves on his arms - and went to see Uthman ibn Affan andasked him, 'Are you saying then that people cannot do hajj and umratogether?' Uthman replied, 'That is my opinion.' Whereupon AIi gotangry and went out saying, 'I am at your service, O Allah, I am atyour service for a hajj and an umra together.' "

    Points to make:

    1. Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s in every hadith narrated in this incident, either replies defiantly , or shows anger. In this paticular hadith, he is so angered by what he has heard, he leaves his work, with meal and leaves still on his arms (without even cleaning himself), directly questions Uthman, confirms he has indeed, changed the sunnah (according to the opinion of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s), and leaves angrily, so much so, in defiance, he declares that "i am at your service, for a hajj and an umra together'.

    I personally feel, when it comes to Muawiyah, Yazid, Uthman, and clashes between caliphs and ahlulbayt a.s, things are often played down, and watered down, to try to paint an idealistic picture that everyone got along, and people disagree and it was all fine.

    But really , an open minded, realistic, and more truthful account of this incident is that this is more than an ijtihad disagreement. Indeed, you can just tell from the words and actions of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s how furious he was.

    I want to ask, how big of an error is it not to know that you can do umra and hajj together ? Surely anyone would know this? This is the ijma i believe of all sunni's and shia's. I don't even think there is even a shadow of doubt about it. Is it not a big error to begin to forbid people to do that? Furthermore, if Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s himself states this was halal, or that he did it during the time of Muhammed s.a.w, or saw the prophet s.a.w do it, or heard him allow it, surely, with regards to Hazarat Uthman on what basis is he making the halal harram, and going against the Sunnah ?

    I am not disrespecting anyone here, i am merely asking an academic question. And to simplify that, my question is - how big of an error is it to consider doing the umra/hajj together as forbidden ?

    Do you know of any sunni scholars today who would even take the view of Hazrarat Uthman, over that of Ali ? [genuinely interested].

    You can even tell from the hadith that Ali was not just doing his Ijtihad. His words and actions are not of a man doing ijtihad, but a man pretty certian of what was of the sunnah, and almost shocked at someone claiming it was not.
 
 
 
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