Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Scotland can't do referendums any time they want watch

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gladders)
    Which does not negate what I said. Many were dissuaded from voting Yes in that referendum because of economic uncertainty, specifically to do with being both outside the UK and outside the EU (as the EU would not admit a seceding country easily and would demand all sorts of concessions). Now that understanding has been destroyed.
    It absolutely does negate what you are saying.

    No one can tell the future and you make your choices on that basis on everything in life.
    You make educated guess' and live with the consequences and that is what is happening now.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gladders)
    Quite reasonably because one of the assumptions made in the 2014 referendum was that the UK would remain in the EU. Circumstances have changed.
    Circumstances always change. Was there ever any sense that the UK would be the same in a decade's time as it is now? Is the UK really like it was ten years ago when Tony Blair was in office, we were still occupying Iraq and the financial crash hadn't even been sniffed? Of course not.

    The vote in 2014 - less than two years ago - was a vote to stay in the United Kingdom, not a vote contingent on any particular policy decision. If someone assumed that it would be a UK in the EU, then they really ought to have noticed the declared policy of holding a referendum on the subject.

    Foreign affairs are a reserved policy of the UK Government. The Scottish Government be using reserved decisions to agitate for independence any more than David Cameron should be suggesting the decisions of the Scottish Government are a case for reversing devolution. That's not how a stable or rational system of government operates.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    Circumstances always change. Was there ever any sense that the UK would be the same in a decade's time as it is now? Is the UK really like it was ten years ago when Tony Blair was in office, we were still occupying Iraq and the financial crash hadn't even been sniffed? Of course not.

    The vote in 2014 - less than two years ago - was a vote to stay in the United Kingdom, not a vote contingent on any particular policy decision. If someone assumed that it would be a UK in the EU, then they really ought to have noticed the declared policy of holding a referendum on the subject.

    Foreign affairs are a reserved policy of the UK Government. The Scottish Government be using reserved decisions to agitate for independence any more than David Cameron should be suggesting the decisions of the Scottish Government are a case for reversing devolution. That's not how a stable or rational system of government operates.
    A rational response to an emotional issue. I would love to agree, but it's plain that Scots are outraged and won't let this rest.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gladders)
    A rational response to an emotional issue. I would love to agree, but it's plain that Scots are outraged and won't let this rest.
    Evidence? The only poll I'm aware of after the referendum that asked if there should be a second referendum showed the balance of support was against it. Yes, some polls are showing a margin-of-error lead for independence at the moment - but it's far less than I suspect the SNP would've expected in this circumstance. (As an aside, let's not forget the pollsters underestimated support for the union, rather than overestimating support for the EU as they were shown to have done).

    About 45% of Scots voters were always going to be outraged by this. They're permanently outraged anyway, so I don't see this as much of a change. As for the rest, they're just like the folk in the rest of the UK - many disappointed, many quite happy.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    If Scotland chats ****, Scotland gets banged.

    - Jamie Vardy, 2016.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    Evidence? The only poll I'm aware of after the referendum that asked if there should be a second referendum showed the balance of support was against it. Yes, some polls are showing a margin-of-error lead for independence at the moment - but it's far less than I suspect the SNP would've expected in this circumstance. (As an aside, let's not forget the pollsters underestimated support for the union, rather than overestimating support for the EU as they were shown to have done).

    About 45% of Scots voters were always going to be outraged by this. They're permanently outraged anyway, so I don't see this as much of a change. As for the rest, they're just like the folk in the rest of the UK - many disappointed, many quite happy.
    60%, according to the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rt-poll-finds/

    Yes, it's one poll, but that's a considerable spike and even if it goes down, Yes has a built-in advantage.

    Believe me, I don't want Scotland to leave, but if I were a Scots No voter, I'd be utterly furious right now and would likely abstain in a future referendum.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by gladders)
    ... but if I were a Scots No voter, I'd be utterly furious right now and would likely abstain in a future referendum.
    Why?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Smack)
    Why?
    Because I'd feel dismayed at what's happened south of the border and it would be extremely difficult to argue that Scotland is enhanced within the UK when it's just been grotesquely overriden in a major issue. Sure, there would be economic reasons for staying, but the EU referendum has shown that people ignore facts if they go against their gut.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by gladders)
    Because I'd feel dismayed at what's happened south of the border and it would be extremely difficult to argue that Scotland is enhanced within the UK when it's just been grotesquely overriden in a major issue. Sure, there would be economic reasons for staying, but the EU referendum has shown that people ignore facts if they go against their gut.
    That's assuming that said No voter also voted Remain. I'm not sure if Remain and Leave votes fall into roughly the same camps as Yes and No. I've heard that approximately one third of SNP supporters voted Leave, and it's quite likely that a lot of No voters also voted Leave. I voted Remain but would almost certainly also vote to stay in the UK again.

    Aside from that, the EU was never as big an issue here in Scotland as it was down south. The turnout was lower than elsewhere, and I think that its importance amongst Scots was largely manufactured by the SNP in order to create more division between Scotland and England. You could argue that we were simply politically fatigued, having had two referendums and two elections in less than two years, but my view was that the EU issue was more popular in areas that greater feel the effects of immigration.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    I hope you're right, Smack. I had heard turnout in Scotland was actually highest among the UK's countries - don't have stats to hand though. I had also heard many SNP/Nats supporters deliberately voted Leave to ignite this furore deliberately.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by gladders)
    I hope you're right, Smack. I had heard turnout in Scotland was actually highest among the UK's countries - don't have stats to hand though. I had also heard many SNP/Nats supporters deliberately voted Leave to ignite this furore deliberately.
    Scotland had the second lowest turnout of all regions within the UK, at 67.21%. Looking at the individual councils, Glasgow, which voted Yes in 2014, had a turnout of just over 56%, and Dundee, which also voted yes, again how a lower than Scottish average turnout of 63%. Same with the other two Yes voting councils. Whether there were nationalists voting tactically to try and bring about another referendum I'm not sure, though.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    If the majority Scottish people want a referendum, in light of this massive change, it would be dangerous not to let them have it; they would probably be a massive amount of violence.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WhisperingTide)
    If the majority Scottish people want a referendum, in light of this massive change, it would be dangerous not to let them have it; they would probably be a massive amount of violence.
    So funny


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    So funny


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Because when a large amount of people, through history, feel like they have been bent over a barrel, it's never ended badly, right?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WhisperingTide)
    Because when a large amount of people, through history, feel like they have been bent over a barrel, it's never ended badly, right?
    The idea that violence is going to break out on the streets in Scotland is hilarious


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gladders)
    60%, according to the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rt-poll-finds/

    Yes, it's one poll, but that's a considerable spike and even if it goes down, Yes has a built-in advantage.

    Believe me, I don't want Scotland to leave, but if I were a Scots No voter, I'd be utterly furious right now and would likely abstain in a future referendum.
    It's not even one poll: that Sunday Post poll - which showed 59% by the way - was conducted by a survey organisation, not a British Polling Council accredited pollster. It was completely out to step with responses in other polls conducted soon after.

    As I said however, the only poll I'm aware off showed demand for a second referendum being exceeded by the number of people who don't think there should be one.

    I'm pretty sure if you want to **** Scotland up good and proper, a second referendum and an Out vote would be the way to do it. I'd rather take a decade of Jeremy Corbyn as First Minister.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WhisperingTide)
    Because when a large amount of people, through history, feel like they have been bent over a barrel, it's never ended badly, right?
    Yeah, Scotland isn't some sort of oppressed colony - it's a well-off part of the UK that's been consistently provided with higher public spending since at least the late 19th century and played an enthusiastic role in bending people across the world over the barrel through the British Empire.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    Yeah, Scotland isn't some sort of oppressed colony - it's a well-off part of the UK that's been consistently provided with higher public spending since at least the late 19th century and played an enthusiastic role in bending people across the world over the barrel through the British Empire.
    As soon as independence is mentioned that description of Scotland as "well-off" seems to turn into "impoverished wasteland.

    As well as recieving more public spending per person than the UK average, it has also brought in more income per person than the UK average.

    And most parts of the UK should consider their involvement in the exploitation of countries and people for the benefit of the British Empire. I'd say Scotland is a little ahead of England in that regard.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Smack)
    Scotland had the second lowest turnout of all regions within the UK, at 67.21%. Looking at the individual councils, Glasgow, which voted Yes in 2014, had a turnout of just over 56%, and Dundee, which also voted yes, again how a lower than Scottish average turnout of 63%. Same with the other two Yes voting councils. Whether there were nationalists voting tactically to try and bring about another referendum I'm not sure, though.
    Voter turnout was not as high as it has been recently in Scotland, true, but this doesn't diminish that Scotland voted for Remain to a greater degree than the rest of the UK voted for Leave.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Boter turnout was not as high as it has been recently in Scotland, true, but this doesn't diminish that Scotland voted for Remain to a greater degree than the rest of the UK voted for Leave.
    Yes, but are enough Scots sufficiently annoyed at the recent referendum result such that they would vote for independence?
 
 
 
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.