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    If any of the links are down you have the titles and authors to do searches.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Your observations on my contributions are necessarily skewed because of your own circumstances.

    I can refer you to all the claims I have made and would likewise appreciate back-up from you rather than rhetoric.

    'Grammar schools fail children from poor families' by Judith Judd on http://www.independent,co,uk/advance...or081100.shtml

    omprehensive Secondary Education: Building on Success (a briefing papers contributed to by many eminent professors of Education see link http://www.casenet.or.uk/success.html

    The Impact of Selection on Pupil Performance - Ian Schagen and Sandie Schagen (research was commissioned by a pro-selection body to validate their claims that grammars provided the best education for the more academically able, but unfortunately their assumption was not entirely supported by the research!) I don't have a link to post but you can find it by typing in the title and authors on google I guess.

    Finally 'A review of structure and performance of secondary education in Kent and Medway' by Professor David Jesson. This report was commissioned by Dr. Stephen Ladyman (MP for Thanet South) because of his concerns on the negative effects of a wholly selective system on all the schools in Kent and Medway.

    I know far more than you think I do about selection and certainly more than you! You come across as very pompous and it does nothing for your credibility.
    Okay, thanks for the sources, I can't find the Judith Judd thing and the link is broken, but it is clearly a less important source anyway.
    I will read the review thing, and google for the others.

    I am hesitant to take an interest in anything Steven Ladyman has to say, but I will certainly look at the others.

    However, I must take issue with the suggestion that I don't know about selection.
    May I ask what kind of school you go to and where?
    I live in Kent - the only fully selective county, and have been to two of its grammars. I watch the debate rage in the local press, and I took the 11+.

    I have friends who go to comps, both well off and not so, I have/have had friends of equal and less wealth than myself who go to grammar school, and I have friends who are undeniably rich.
    I am not exaggerating; reflecting on it I really have met a huge variety of people.

    btw. If you think I come accross as pompous, go back and read your posts!
    I am not trying to be rude here, I am just saying I don't think you are in a position to criticse my tone!
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    (Original post by -mb-)
    Okay, thanks for the sources, I can't find the Judith Judd thing and the link is broken, but it is clearly a less important source anyway.
    I will read the review thing, and google for the others.

    I am hesitant to take an interest in anything Steven Ladyman has to say, but I will certainly look at the others.

    However, I must take issue with the suggestion that I don't know about selection.
    May I ask what kind of school you go to and where?
    I live in Kent - the only fully selective county, and have been to two of its grammars. I watch the debate rage in the local press, and I took the 11+.

    I have friends who go to comps, both well off and not so, I have/have had friends of equal and less wealth than myself who go to grammar school, and I have friends who are undeniably rich.
    I am not exaggerating; reflecting on it I really have met a huge variety of people.

    btw. If you think I come accross as pompous, go back and read your posts!
    I am not trying to be rude here, I am just saying I don't think you are in a position to criticse my tone!
    I'm glad that we can now talk about this on a equitable and civilised level - and I apologise if I came across as pompous as well (we never see ourselves as other see us).

    My school days are behind me. I also live in Kent and have witnessed the awful problems the LEA have created because of their dogged political determination to cling to selection.

    We have one of the worst results at Key stage 2. We have the worst performing school in the whole country! Our grammars are very mediocre compared to the intake. Grammar schools in Kent get more resources because they are invariably the ones with sixth forms.

    The main thrust of the link on Judith Judd that you couldn't find that relates to 'grammar schools fail children from poor families' is;
    Figures released contradict the idea than grammar schools give ppor children a leg-up in life.
    Only 2.7% of pupils in grammar schools are eligible for free school meals (the official discriminator of poverty) compared with 17.1% across England. In some areas, huge gaps exist between the proportion of pupils given free school meals in grammar and comprehensive schools. For Birmingham (many grammars there) the figures are 5.1% and 36.1%, in Wirral (again another area with widespread selection) 5.4% and 34.4%.
    Margaret Tulloch of the Campaign for State Education, said: 'These figures give the lie to the idea that for poor children selection is a way out of poverty. People believe that in the good old days, selection allowed poor children to do well. Even if that were once true, it certainly isn't any longer'.

    I would like to ask -mb- why you went from a state grammar that you had attended from age 11, to an independent grammar at 13?

    I understand your reluctance to listen to anything Steve Ladyman has to say on selection, I feel the same way about Damian Green! However, the report is not his - it belongs to the author and is extremely relevant to your hypothesis that 'grammars are best and their existence benefits all types of school'. You will find the results of the research prove exactly the opposite.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    I would like to ask -mb- why you went from a state grammar that you had attended from age 11, to an independent grammar at 13?
    Oops. I always forget to mention the unqiue position of my school:
    I got to a school that is a mixed state grammar, that admits pupils at 13, and has a boarding element!
    Quite a combination.

    There are three *usual* ways that people get to it:
    - Go to a prep (independent) school which takes pupils until 13, then go to my school, while the others from the prep go to other private schools.
    - Go to the local comp for 2 years after primary school, which has a "fast track" which is the more than the top stream - it is an elite set where almost everyone goes to my school after two years, so it ceases to exist. (I believe this is worse than having a seperate school for the academic people.)
    - Go to another grammar or perhaps "better" comp for 2 years, after primary school, then transfer to my school.

    I took option 3.

    To save you bother of finding out, my school is Cranbrook School, I reckon it must be the only state school in the country that takes people at 13, has a boarding element, and is mixed.
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    (Original post by -mb-)
    Oops. I always forget to mention the unqiue position of my school:
    I got to a school that is a mixed state grammar, that admits pupils at 13, and has a boarding element!
    Quite a combination.

    There are three *usual* ways that people get to it:
    - Go to a prep (independent) school which takes pupils until 13, then go to my school, while the others from the prep go to other private schools.
    - Go to the local comp for 2 years after primary school, which has a "fast track" which is the more than the top stream - it is an elite set where almost everyone goes to my school after two years, so it ceases to exist. (I believe this is worse than having a seperate school for the academic people.)
    - Go to another grammar or perhaps "better" comp for 2 years, after primary school, then transfer to my school.

    I took option 3.

    To save you bother of finding out, my school is Cranbrook School, I reckon it must be the only state school in the country that takes people at 13, has a boarding element, and is mixed.
    Cranbrook may be the only state school that does not take students until 13 but it is not alone in having a boarding facility and being co-ed. I can think of at least one other in Kent, and therefore there is probably more.

    I am pleased that one of the options mentions that you can go to a comp which has a 'fast track system' this is in fact the same thing as all comps that have a true all ability mix (unlike Kent where comps cannot be truly comps because of the existence of grammars which cream off their potential top quartile). Therefore there is no academic need to change to another school, rather the need seems to be socially motivated.
    Considering that your school (18th out of 33 grammars in Kent) had 97% achieving 5 A* - C grades and Bennett Memorial Dioscesan School (comp) which has less than 25% students in top quartile (like for like with your school) and got 85% of ALL students through the same benchmark - it speaks volumes on the state of selective education in Kent!

    I do accept that where you have an isolated grammar which can accept, because of it's isolation and huge catchment area, the top 10% of the cohort, you will do much better in the league tables - but it is all down to intake. If you take in more academically able children your exam results will obviously reflect that. That does not support the pro selection lobby's contention that grammars are better. Research into equivalent cohorts in no- selective schools have proved the opposite.
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    They should bring back the Grammar School. Then people at the grammar could go on to uni and the government could scrap its 50% aim which is pointless.

    The children at grammar school could be nurtured to achieve their full potential rather than being neglected so that teachers can improve the 'average'

    In the normal school people who didn't learn as well or who weren’t as bright could get targeted teaching to bring them up to a good standard. The best of these should be encourages to go onto the 6th form and the rest should be advised to go into vocational training to reduce our plumber and electrician deficit.

    And then everyone is happy.
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    (Original post by Scottus_Mus)
    They should bring back the Grammar School. Then people at the grammar could go on to uni and the government could scrap its 50% aim which is pointless.

    The children at grammar school could be nurtured to achieve their full potential rather than being neglected so that teachers can improve the 'average'

    In the normal school people who didn't learn as well or who weren’t as bright could get targeted teaching to bring them up to a good standard. The best of these should be encourages to go onto the 6th form and the rest should be advised to go into vocational training to reduce our plumber and electrician deficit.

    And then everyone is happy.
    And so we go round in circles!

    Your suggestions have already being made by a few people on this forum ( and so are far from unique) and every time have been shot to pieces by many others.

    I am not going to start the whole thing over again as I don't have the patience but if you really feel strongly enough to make that sort of comment as you have, look at other threads on the same subject by doing a search and then see how the content of those debates evolved and resolved.

    You are being far too simplistic :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by -mb-)
    I live in Kent - the only fully selective county,
    The extent of your knowledge is represented here.
 
 
 
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