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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    It's not really an interpretation then. Without a verse to justify their acts they would not be able to abrogate the verse I just quoted.
    But I didn't say they don't have a verse, just that I don't know. I'm not a member of ISIS, they may well have one. I imagine they could also claim other Muslims aren't Muslims because they don't implement a lot of the Qur'an, even though it's meant to be 100% the word of God.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But I didn't say they don't have a verse, just that I don't know. I'm not a member of ISIS, they may well have one. I imagine they could also claim other Muslims aren't Muslims because they don't implement a lot of the Qur'an, even though it's meant to be 100% the word of God.
    Well they would need a verse which says a Muslim would need to implement all the verses to stay Muslim.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Well they would need a verse which says a Muslim would need to implement all the verses to stay Muslim.
    Not necessarily. After all, aren't many of the accepted Islamic practices such as praying 5 times a day etc not even in the Quran, but rather in the Hadith?

    I'm also pretty sure that they consider most Muslims to be idolaters which is shirk, no? That's apparently why they were so intent on destroying all of those cultural temples and historic sites in the ME. I don't think many people would doubt that if given the chance, they'd destroy the Kaaba.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Not necessarily. After all, aren't many of the accepted Islamic practices such as praying 5 times a day etc not even in the Quran, but rather in the Hadith?

    I'm also pretty sure that they consider most Muslims to be idolaters which is shirk, no? That's apparently why they were so intent on destroying all of those cultural temples and historic sites in the ME. I don't think many people would doubt that if given the chance, they'd destroy the Kaaba.
    Idolaters? I don't see how. The furthest they can probably go is hypocrites but that wouldn't abrogate the verse.

    Anyway agree to disagree. I'm off.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Idolaters? I don't see how. The furthest they can probably go is hypocrites but that wouldn't abrogate the verse.

    Anyway agree to disagree. I'm off.
    But this is just driving to the point of the issue: subjective interpretation. You might not see how, but they might not see how you could possibly deny being idolaters. You accuse them of being unislamic, I presume they'd accuse you of exactly the same thing. To a sceptic there's no reason to accept your interpretation over theirs.

    And I'm not sure what your point really is anyway. Muslims do "unislamic" things such as drinking etc all the time, doesn't mean they're not Muslims.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But this is just driving to the point of the issue: subjective interpretation. You might not see how, but they might not see how you could possibly deny being idolaters. You accuse them of being unislamic, I presume they'd accuse you of exactly the same thing. To a sceptic there's no reason to accept your interpretation over theirs.

    And I'm not sure what your point really is anyway. Muslims do "unislamic" things such as drinking etc all the time, doesn't mean they're not Muslims.
    Of course. Drinking and such is unislamic as are the actions of ISIS (which is what we disagreed on). Again I didn't say they aren't Muslims.

    Just to add. People claim ISIS follow a literal interpretation of the quran to justify their actions. So far I don't see their justification for other Muslims being idolaters.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Of course. Drinking and such is unislamic as are the actions of ISIS (which is what we disagreed on). Again I didn't say they aren't Muslims.
    Again, as you say. If they don't consider those they kill to be Muslims then their actions, according to them, aren't unislamic as the verse you provided expressly relies on the assumption that they believe who they kill are Muslims. Anyone with common sense would know that they do not believe this, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I'm ... a member of ISIS
    O:

    I'd make a post relevant to the thread but it looks like you've got it covered; most of them are just in denial, anywho. :L It's a shame, really.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Again, as you say. If they don't consider those they kill to be Muslims then their actions, according to them, aren't unislamic as the verse you provided expressly relies on the assumption that they believe who they kill are Muslims. Anyone with common sense would know that they do not believe this, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
    I would need to see the verses they use to justify this belief that every Muslim they kill is a disbeliever via their very literal interpretation. Alright now I'm really off.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    I would need to see the verses they use to justify this belief that every Muslim they kill is a disbeliever via their very literal interpretation. Alright now I'm really off.
    Unless you chat with a member of ISIS on here then that's unlikely to happen. But it's safe to assume that a cult as insanely devoted to their religion as theirs has scriptural justifications for their actions.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Which verse do they use for justification they the victims aren't Muslims?
    There are many references to Munafiqun - those who profess to be Muslims but who do not follow it properly.
    Kinda like all those Muslims who call ISIS "not Muslims" because of the way they practice Islam?

    And the passages that warn against adopting the ways of the kuffar, of failing to fully commit to jihad, etc.

    Lets face it, it's not difficult to find some rule or instruction in the Quran or sunnah that your average 21st century Muslim is breaking.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    a bit over a billion, rather than 'billions' actually. but there also also well over a billion Christians and Hindus also - numbers of adherents dont really prove anything. the facts we are talking about here is that the billion plus islamic world is producing the majority of the worlds terrorism issue - despite being around for the least amount of time when compared to the worlds other faiths. The reason is due to the '99%' of musims, you included living in self induced ignorance as to the problems coming from your islamic communities and doing nothing about it.
    Its not "just over a billion", if you want to go into the specifics, it is 1.6bn as of 2010, which I am sure is a lot of higher now due to breeding and conversions.- I agree number of adherents dont prove a Religion to be correct.

    It is questionable whether in reality the majority of attacks are actually religiously motivated, statistics would show you that 2% of "terrorist" attacks in Europe are Religiously motivated, whilst 94% of attacks in the US are by "non-Muslims". In fact in the 746 attacks in Europe since 2011, only 8 were religiously motivated.

    But there is no doubt a problem in the Muslim world whereby these people are being misguided to join a gang like culture to achieve a political aim, but you can't blame normal everyday Muslims for that or be prejudiced to the rest of the 99.9999%...This should not even be an arguemnt and if you want to base your views on Muslims (not Islam as that is another debate) based on ISIS and think that every Muslim supports ISIS then I feel sorry for you and urge you to get out of this ignorance bubble. As for your comment that 99.999999% of the Muslims are ignorant, I have no comment to make.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    I would need to see the verses they use to justify this belief that every Muslim they kill is a disbeliever via their very literal interpretation. Alright now I'm really off.
    The Quran permits the killing of those guilty of fasad. Fasad includes disobeying god's law. Therefore any rule, prohibition or instruction that is broken is justification for the accusation of fasad and the use of the death penalty. Or crucifixion - interesting to observe that ISIS use crucifixion as a punishment for some crimes. A punishment that is specifically prescribed for fasad in the Quran. Coincidence?

    Please note: I am only using the interpretations and explanations of Ibn Kathir and as Suddi here.
    Other interpretations and explanations are available.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    Although IS cant be assumed as 'exemplar muslims, they cant be disregarded as 'not being muslims either' they are quite obviously muslims following a doctrine they beleive is more islamic than yours. none of the billion or so muslims you refer act or interpret in exactly the same way- doesnt mean they arnt muslims or islamic. the fact they have killed more muslims than not im sure is simply due to a reality of geography and population. the people they kill in terms of their ideology do not conform to the requirements of islam - that is where their hatred stems from. the spread of IS accross the globe is dwn to the inaction and appeasement shown by the rest of the worlds muslim population. There has been islamsit terrorists for many many decades, but it seems the acceleration of this phenomenan ahs really taken off in last couple of decades andso the blame for that can directly be laid at your generations ie its the muslims of your age group accross the globe that have either encouraged or condoned the rise fo groups liek this or in more extreme cases joined them
    1. Great, you agree ISIS are not exemplar Muslims



    2. So the fact that ISIS kill Muslims does not effect how Muslim they are? if anything it goes to show how much more of a political mission they have.

    3. My "Generation" of Muslims? There is no doubt that due to the instability in the Middle East these groups have sought legitimacy and sought the opportunity to achieve a "political" aim. It is not coincidence that as a countries government loses power, other groups try to take advantage to gain power and influence. If Saddam was still here, ISIS would not but then again he was also an oppressor just not as bad. But again you blame "my generation of Muslims", what have I done to be thrown such a distasteful label?
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    (Original post by Kutta)
    Its not "just over a billion", if you want to go into the specifics, it is 1.6bn as of 2010, which I am sure is a lot of higher now due to breeding and conversions.- I agree number of adherents dont prove a Religion to be correct.

    It is questionable whether in reality the majority of attacks are actually religiously motivated, statistics would show you that 2% of "terrorist" attacks in Europe are Religiously motivated, whilst 94% of attacks in the US are by "non-Muslims". In fact in the 746 attacks in Europe since 2011, only 8 were religiously motivated.

    But there is no doubt a problem in the Muslim world whereby these people are being misguided to join a gang like culture to achieve a political aim, but you can't blame normal everyday Muslims for that or be prejudiced to the rest of the 99.9999%...This should not even be an arguemnt and if you want to base your views on Muslims (not Islam as that is another debate) based on ISIS and think that every Muslim supports ISIS then I feel sorry for you and urge you to get out of this ignorance bubble. As for your comment that 99.999999% of the Muslims are ignorant, I have no comment to make.
    i certainly dont believe IS are supported by all muslims- but equally i dont apply the ignorance that IS arnt muslims. they purpote to practice islamic ideology. it is quite obvious to people looking from outside the islamic world that muslims in gneeral although not activley support IS, make very little outward protest to challenge their ideology. there is more dissent towrd israel amoung muslim world than IS- who do you think is responsible for more muslim deaths do you think?
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    1. (Original post by Kutta)
      1. Great, you agree ISIS are not exemplar Muslims



      2. So the fact that ISIS kill Muslims does not effect how Muslim they are? if anything it goes to show how much more of a political mission they have.
      not at all. arnt you aware that mohammeds companions killed off many muslims in their attempts to take the caliphates - were they then any less muslim in your eyes?
      (Original post by Kutta)
      3. My "Generation" of Muslims? There is no doubt that due to the instability in the Middle East these groups have sought legitimacy and sought the opportunity to achieve a "political" aim. It is not coincidence that as a countries government loses power, other groups try to take advantage to gain power and influence. If Saddam was still here, ISIS would not but then again he was also an oppressor just not as bad. But again you blame "my generation of Muslims", what have I done to be thrown such a distasteful label?
      your generation seems to be the one that has allowed the expansion of islamist terrorsit ideology to flourish. it may also coincide with the reach of the internet and social media but there are fresh recruits of your age from muslims populations all over the globe - these communities are doing little or nothing noticeable to kurb this recruitment, to turn in islamist leaders or their preachers that diseminate IS propagnda and lastly do even less to challenge the weaknesses in their ideologies. being passive is not challenging issues in your (islamic) community.
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    (Original post by dexterminate)
    And so does every other holy book. We do not follow every exact thing the Qu’ran states if we believe it is not right.

    Need I remind you that the Qu’ran was made centuries ago, society is much more different than it was then.

    Islam is a religion of peace – I would know. All the Muslims I have met are the most humble, kind and beautiful people I have ever met. They hear all the **** that people like you say, and yet, they would still treat you with utmost kindness.

    They believe in forgiveness, modesty and kindness. It’s crazy that these innocent people are being called terrorists just because of the actions of other people?

    Let me tell you a few facts about Islam that you probably do not know:

    • They have to pay to charity, it’s an obligation. It is one of the main pillars of Islam.

    • They call each other brothers, sisters. My friends have to call their elders aunties, uncles.

    • “Heaven lies under your mothers feet” this means that you have to treat your mother with U T M O S T respect. Like U T M O S T. The way my friends treat their mothers make me look bad.

    • They respect every religion.

    Media had manipulated us into believing that Islam is an extreme religion in which they practise acts of terrorism. They really don’t. They couldn’t care less. After that attack on the twin towers, Islam has been shamed as a religion by our society. Why? For what reason? The amount of acts of terror other religions have done, mainly Christianity, is not shamed.

    Let us not forget the black churches? Which were shot up by that young man? And how long did he serve in prison?

    Let us not forget the KKK? And how they lynched blacks in public? And now they are threatening to create something ‘big’?

    Let us not forget police brutality against people of colour now?

    Stop focusing on what the media want to focus. Stay woke.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    no one is disputing that many, many Muslims are excellent, peaceful, generous people

    as so often said, the problem is Islam, not (most) Muslims

    if the Quran and sunnah did not contain so many incitements to violence, did not encourage Muslims to despise non-Muslims (those "vilest of creatures"), it would be much more difficult for Muslim terrorists to establish Islamic credentials, and there would be far less of them

    so, of course that Islam is much more of a problem than actual, concrete Muslims (who are, mostly, just normal people)
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    (Original post by QE2)
    OK.
    Which verses have I misquoted?
    What has been taken out of context?
    Which statements of otehrs have I manipulated?
    Spoiler:
    Show
    I predict that you will not provide a detailed response, as your earlier posts demonstrate a poor knowledge of the Quran and sunnah, and the basics of Islamic ideology - not to mention odd ideas as to what constitutes evidence and proof.
    How can killing Muslims be seen as jihad from ur viewpoint, ur logic is flawed.
    I have one question- do u follow any religion and if so what?
    I will get back to your questions dw


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Shiby_123)
    How can killing Muslims be seen as jihad from ur viewpoint, ur logic is flawed.
    Not so. As has been explained many times, the people doing the killing do not consider their victims to be Muslims - just as you do not consider ISIS to be Muslims.
    See?
    The Quran only forbids the killing of those who Allah has forbidden to be killed. And Allah permits the killing of those guilty of "fasad" (5:32-33). Look up the definition of fasad. It is an ambiguous term that includes many actions, from revolution to disobeying gods law.

    Therefore, by the tafsir of such eminent classical scholars as Ibn Kathir and as Suddi, anyone who disobeys god'a law may be killed.
    I am not saying that the Quran says that they must be killed, or that it is the only interpretation. But, it does allow it and many millions of Muslims use Ibn Kathir as their primary tafsir - either directly or indirectly.

    Jihad is simply the struggle to further the cause of Allah, either internally or externally, spiritually or physically. The killing of those who oppose "true Islam" is obviously seen as jihad by those who follow that interpretation.

    You are making the mistake of ideologically judging others' thoughts and actions by your own. You can't do this, because they fundamentally differ.

    I have one question- do u follow any religion and if so what?
    That is two questions.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The Quran permits the killing of those guilty of fasad. Fasad includes disobeying god's law. Therefore any rule, prohibition or instruction that is broken is justification for the accusation of fasad and the use of the death penalty. Or crucifixion - interesting to observe that ISIS use crucifixion as a punishment for some crimes. A punishment that is specifically prescribed for fasad in the Quran. Coincidence?

    Please note: I am only using the interpretations and explanations of Ibn Kathir and as Suddi here.
    Other interpretations and explanations are available.
    I'm not using any scholarly interpretation in this specific case because I'm looking through the perspective of ISIS via a face-value literal one. They could probably use these ayats to justify those Muslims literally fighting against them but not innocent people minding their own business.
 
 
 
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