Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    BBC article on grammar schools

    http://www.bbc.com/news/education-34538222
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by niteninja1)
    To all the people arguing having a separate school for intelligent students is wrong. Is it wrong that "special" needs students usually go to a separate school
    No because they're children that actually need more attention, and need to be separated due the risk of getting bullied by children.

    That being said, most of my classmates were smart as hell, and me being a really dumb kid(even though I work so hard) really found it helpful being with smart friends. I don't believe in making schools simply for smart kids, since the other less able kids don't really benefit from getting to understand how model smart students work- especially in my case.
    Online

    19
    ReputationRep:
    As someone who was fervently for grammar schools, I've come to rapidly oppose them as of late, for the following reasons:
    • If they serve only a certain catchment area, and parents know in advance that a new one is being built/converted, then it is very likely that you'll get the classic mass buying of property near the school so that wealthier parents can make sure that they've won the postcode lottery. When you see the applicant pool being skewed in such a way, it's hardly surprising that a grammar school restricts social mobility
    • Yes, you can tutor a child for the exams (even cheap revision guides may be out of the reach of the poorest families, and that's not to speak of £30-40/hour tutors),which confers a disproportionate benefit on richer families.
    • The 11+ is a one-off exam - little attention is given to a child's exams/progress throughout primary school up to that age. That condenses a student's future academic career into an assessment lasting a couple of hours
    • There are people who are late bloomers, in the sense that they have always been medium students and only really step up their game before the shock of GCSEs/A-levels. Likewise, there are students who appeared to have been decent at younger ages only to be blown off course later on, or to collapse in the face of actual exam pressure. A test taken at 11 is a poor determinant of whether someone will be in the top x% of his/her class at the age of 16/18.
    • The most honest system would be to allow students to "upgrade" or "downgrade" between comps and grammars at various stage in their studies (say, at the ages of 11, 13, 14 and 16), but this would bring complications in terms of transport, making friends/developing connections with teachers, and the admin side of things. Easier to allow people to move between streams/sets of different ability within the same school.
    • A lot of what grammar schools offer is in extracurriculars - to provide an anecdote, schools like RGS Guildford had a disproportionate presence in local debating/MUN/European Parliament competitions in my area last year. Why should these ECs be denied to comp students, particularly when they do not relate directly to academia?
    • There's something wonderfully twisted in providing the most resources to people who need them the least.
    • Grammar schools were introduced with the intention of separating out the "working class" (who would learn a trade) from the "academic class" (who would go into university), and each type of school was focused on nudging students in each direction. Unless the proportion of grammar schools is exactly the same as that of the student population you wanna send to uni, you're creating a two-tier system where students from both types of schools end up at uni, but with comp students being condemned to worse ones than grammar school ones due to a less competitive environment etc. If you want more people to do apprenticeships, make sure that the necessary infrastructure for them is in place before the change. Sadly, there is still a lot of improvement to be seen on that front.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    All those people complaining that comprehensives need more money need to understand that grammar schools are also facing cuts making it difficult for grammar schools to provide the level of education they are capable of
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by niteninja1)
    To all the people arguing having a separate school for intelligent students is wrong. Is it wrong that "special" needs students usually go to a separate school
    No, not at all. Because they need extra attention for medical reasons.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JohnGreek)
    x
    You make very valid points!
    Yet, the 'upgrade/downgrade' system seems pretty ridiculous (although you acknowledged this). Usually, students retake exams if they do not meet their expected grades (2 or below)- at least that's what I know of. If they under perform consistently they receive student-student or staff-student mentoring.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lucabrasi98)
    Then look at countries above us in secondary education rankings and notice how their cultures all have an emphasis on grammar schools.
    Discounting the fact that I didn't find any mention of grammar school systems in that article you linked, you've completely overlooked a multitude of other factors.

    If this was all about adopting the system of a well educated nation then we ought to look elsewhere like China or Singapore for example. But there's a reason why replicating their system probably won't have any effect on our system, namely because academics, teachers and education in general are all looked down upon or seen as secondary in Britain whereas in Asia they are utterly revered.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by catinsomehat)
    No, a 2:1 that sounds good to me. It all depends on what you're going to do with it now

    You would have gotten the same result if you'd gone to a grammar school though, they wouldn't have held a magic wand out and bestowed a lot of knowledge directly into your brain

    Believe it or not but people who go to what are considered top universities tend to be bad programmers. I can attest to this and so can my current employer, just because a university is high up in the rankings doesn't mean anything. Sit them down and ask them to write a simple algorithm or to program something simple and they'll look at you like your head just spun around. What matters is people who learn and do things outside of their course to better themselves and actually learn what they need to know about what they're going to be doing afterwards (universities won't actually teach you what you need to know in the real world for most courses - it's all crap, this applies to grammar schools too, it's all about self-learning...unfortunately most people don't seem to grasp this. The people who will get ahead will get ahead anyway).
    Yes, I just thought that theatre studies, as a quintessential 'arty' subject, is looked down upon. I only took it because i thought it was going to be easy.

    And i totally get what you say about 'self learning'. To be honest with you, I think that i practically taught myself that degree.

    Nevermind hey.

    I want to get my act together in the next year, so i can apply for a PhD the year after. Not so that i can get a job with it, just because i think the title of doctor would go well before my name
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by john2054)
    Yes, I just thought that theatre studies, as a quintessential 'arty' subject, is looked down upon. I only took it because i thought it was going to be easy.

    And i totally get what you say about 'self learning'. To be honest with you, I think that i practically taught myself that degree.

    Nevermind hey.

    I want to get my act together in the next year, so i can apply for a PhD the year after. Not so that i can get a job with it, just because i think the title of doctor would go well before my name
    Are you being serious? You're thinking of doing and funding a four-year research degree just to have the word Doctor before your name?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Trapz99)
    Are you being serious? You're thinking of doing and funding a four-year research degree just to have the word Doctor before your name?
    Is that a bad idea?!?
    Spoiler:
    Show
    jk jk jk
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Finally a way to separate misbehaving children in state schools from the bright kids who want to actually learn and get somewhere in life.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Dnkz7)
    Is Dartford Grammar School a really good school? I got a place there but I turned them down believing I wouldn't achieve top grades at IB
    It is thought to be one of the top state schools.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by nwmyname)
    Grammar Schools push kids further as they are in an environment with other clever children.
    If they were in a state school, chances are that they accustom themselves to lower standards.
    This is what I've always suspected. But nowadays I'm not so sure.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    problem with state schools are there are many variables which parents cant control, such as unruly kids. don't get me wrong, some of my mates are people that weren't really bothered about school, but I think it throws a spanner in the works. my mum wanted me to go for a grammar and I probably would have passed the 11+. my mediocre academic career since is probably due to he fact I went to state and fell in with the wrong crowd, plus wasn't academically challenged. however I still got to a solid russel group so I wont complain too much. its just going to a state instanty ruled out some options, as most of the teachers didn't believe in you and wouldn't move you up groups
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Fantastic, I went to one.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by neal95)
    problem with state schools are there are many variables which parents cant control, such as unruly kids. don't get me wrong, some of my mates are people that weren't really bothered about school, but I think it throws a spanner in the works. my mum wanted me to go for a grammar and I probably would have passed the 11+. my mediocre academic career since is probably due to he fact I went to state and fell in with the wrong crowd, plus wasn't academically challenged. however I still got to a solid russel group so I wont complain too much. its just going to a state instanty ruled out some options, as most of the teachers didn't believe in you and wouldn't move you up groups
    Take responsibility for your own underachievements.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Good. I went to a single sex grammar (non fee) and would love to send my future children to a similar sort of school (though maybe not single sex). I didn't realise grammar schools barely exist anymore, as there are 3 in my hometown. Where I live now there are none and they are virtually unheard of- there are a couple of decent comprehensives but they're incredibly hard to get into, and the private schools are extortionate.*
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Take responsibility for your own underachievements.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I take responsibility for my own underachievements. however all I am saying is that the state schools throws in variables that parents cant control. you would be a thick uneducated **** to argue against that assertion. I wasn't the most studious individual, however in the environment I was in it wasn't "cool" to study. If I went to a place that was more rigorous concerning acadmemics I am sure I would have done better. stop sucking up to the establishment and try and empatathise for a change. just a bit of constructiver criticism
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    I went to a state school, and I haven't turned out so bad... :rofl:
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by neal95)
    I take responsibility for my own underachievements. however all I am saying is that the state schools throws in variables that parents cant control. you would be a thick uneducated **** to argue against that assertion. I wasn't the most studious individual, however in the environment I was in it wasn't "cool" to study. If I went to a place that was more rigorous concerning acadmemics I am sure I would have done better. stop sucking up to the establishment and try and empatathise for a change. just a bit of constructiver criticism
    I went to a state school and achieved very good results. We had streams which allowed the best to be in classes where they were pushed while also giving the less academic students the support they needed.

    Now how is a grammar school better than that?
    Stop looking for excuses for not doing as well as you should have.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.