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    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm not talking about mansions and Eton here, I'm talking about a decent family home and a local independent school. The sort of standard three or four bed homes, and the sort of schools that were the preserve of the upper middle class - not the rich, but the comfortably well-off.

    As I've pointed out previously, even on £100k you will not have a take-home salary of £65k. Deduct pensions contributions - and likely things like student loan debt for younger people - and you're talking about more than £10k off that figure.

    That'll earn you a house a bit above average (once you manage to save up a large deposit), potentially being able to run two family cars and a holiday abroad. We're not talking Rolls Royce money here, we're talking middle-middle class.
    Still well above average.


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    (Original post by _Sinnie_)
    The idea that you are expected to have x, y and z is laughable.
    When someone has worked hard all their life, from a young child until adulthood. Just so that they could get into a well respected and "well paid" job e.g a Doctor. Because all their life they have been told if you work really hard you can get a well paid job e.g a doctor a lawyer, a banker etc. and you will live better than your parents.

    They have managed to get into medical school, which is no mean feat, its very hard. Only to realise they cant afford the life they have struggled and strived for. That they cant live better than their parents who had it so much easier - being part of the baby boomer generation. How do you think that person feels. That the only way for that person to get what they were promised is for them to get into huge debt.

    Decades ago Doctors lived much better. They could afford Nicer homes and Nicer Cars they could afford to go on holiday. Now as a doctor my dad hasnt been able to take us on a holiday outside the UK for seven years! Yes their pay has technically increased. But inflation has increased more.

    High Prices and Low Wages are the same damn thing!
    Adam Smith agrees.

    Why should that person settle for less, while they watch MP's get pay rise after pay rise. Why?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm not talking about mansions and Eton here, I'm talking about a decent family home and a local independent school. The sort of standard three or four bed homes, and the sort of schools that were the preserve of the upper middle class - not the rich, but the comfortably well-off.

    As I've pointed out previously, even on £100k you will not have a take-home salary of £65k. Deduct pensions contributions - and likely things like student loan debt for younger people - and you're talking about more than £10k off that figure.

    That'll earn you a house a bit above average (once you manage to save up a large deposit), potentially being able to run two family cars and a holiday abroad. We're not talking Rolls Royce money here, we're talking middle-middle class.
    As someone else already pointed out, the average salary is £26k ish, so how do you get to only "a bit above average" with almost four times the salary? Doesn't make sense.

    "potentially being able to run two family cars" how expensive is it to run a car?? My family have two...

    tbh though from my perspective there isn't much difference between "comfortably well off" and "rich"
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    When someone has worked hard all their life, from a young child until adulthood. Just so that they could get into a well respected and "well paid" job e.g a Doctor. Because all their life they have been told if you work really hard you can get a well paid job e.g a doctor a lawyer, a banker etc. and you will live better than your parents.

    They have managed to get into medical school, which is no mean feat, its very hard. Only to realise they cant afford the life they have struggled and strived for. That they cant live better than their parents who had it so much easier - being part of the baby boomer generation. How do you think that person feels. That the only way for that person to get what they were promised is for them to get into huge debt.

    Decades ago Doctors lived much better. They could afford Nicer homes and Nicer Cars they could afford to go on holiday. Now as a doctor my dad hasnt been able to take us on a holiday outside the UK for seven years! Yes their pay has technically increased. But inflation has increased more.

    High Prices and Low Wages are the same damn thing!
    Adam Smith agrees.

    Why should that person settle for less, while they watch MP's get pay rise after pay rise. Why?
    Blake a lack of investment in the health service and the way in which our government is currently treating doctors.

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    iN THIS COUNTRY THE RICH AREG ETTING RICHER AND THE POOR ARE GETTING poORER OCCUPY WE NEED TO REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH TAX THE RICH TAX EVERYTHING MY BENEFITS AREN'T ENOUGH FOR MY TEN CHILDREN TO EAT
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    When someone has worked hard all their life, from a young child until adulthood. Just so that they could get into a well respected and "well paid" job e.g a Doctor. Because all their life they have been told if you work really hard you can get a well paid job e.g a doctor a lawyer, a banker etc. and you will live better than your parents.

    They have managed to get into medical school, which is no mean feat, its very hard. Only to realise they cant afford the life they have struggled and strived for. That they cant live better than their parents who had it so much easier - being part of the baby boomer generation. How do you think that person feels. That the only way for that person to get what they were promised is for them to get into huge debt.

    Decades ago Doctors lived much better. They could afford Nicer homes and Nicer Cars. Yes their pay has technically increased. But inflation has increased more.

    High Prices and Low Wages are the same damn thing!
    Adam Smith agrees.

    Why should that person settle for less, while they watch MP's get pay rise after pay rise. Why?
    Have you ever watched 'Call the Midwife'? I think by virtue of being born now, rather than 40/50 years ago, means you are better off. If for no other reason than the NHS, funded by these taxes you so lament. There's a whole score of things that were funded by taxes that make your life significantly better than even 30 years ago.

    I'm not really sure what you're arguing. You made the point that a family on 110k finds things difficult - that is simply not true (outside of specific circumstances) and can only be the result of mismanaging money. Whether being a doctor enables you to have the lifestyle you wish to have, in comparison to what most people on here are talking about (those on average or below average salaries) is completely moot. The doctor has significantly more than them and is in no position to talk about not getting the things that were promised to them. Think about all those people told that if they worked hard and got a degree that there would be a job waiting for them and look at all these people with useless (in terms of their jobs) degrees - perhaps they're more hard done by than the doctor with their 110k? People are being squeezed into poverty, right here, right now, in our wonderful country than came 2nd in the Olympics.

    I sure hope no one promised you a certain lifestyle. It is not owed to you. You are not entitled to it, no matter how hard you work, no matter what job you have. Doctors will always be amongst the highest paid, so becoming a doctor will put you nearer the top - whether than buys you a second hand car or a second car, well, it will be what it will be - you can't really use "I was promised a 5 bedroom house" as an excuse for a tax cut.

    Also remember, the baby boomer generation are a disgrace when it comes to any kind of future planning. They took, took and took and gave no thought to the future. Modeling your expectations on them is a sure fire way to causing the next financial crisis.
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    (Original post by _Sinnie_)
    Have you ever watched 'Call the Midwife'? I think by virtue of being born now, rather than 40/50 years ago, means you are better off. If for no other reason than the NHS, funded by these taxes you so lament. There's a whole score of things that were funded by taxes that make your life significantly better than even 30 years ago.

    I'm not really sure what you're arguing. You made the point that a family on 110k finds things difficult - that is simply not true (outside of specific circumstances) and can only be the result of mismanaging money. Whether being a doctor enables you to have the lifestyle you wish to have, in comparison to what most people on here are talking about (those on average or below average salaries) is completely moot. The doctor has significantly more than them and is in no position to talk about not getting the things that were promised to them. Think about all those people told that if they worked hard and got a degree that there would be a job waiting for them and look at all these people with useless (in terms of their jobs) degrees - perhaps they're more hard done by than the doctor with their 110k? People are being squeezed into poverty, right here, right now, in our wonderful country than came 2nd in the Olympics.

    I sure hope no one promised you a certain lifestyle. It is not owed to you. You are not entitled to it, no matter how hard you work, no matter what job you have. Doctors will always be amongst the highest paid, so becoming a doctor will put you nearer the top - whether than buys you a second hand car or a second car, well, it will be what it will be - you can't really use "I was promised a 5 bedroom house" as an excuse for a tax cut.

    Also remember, the baby boomer generation are a disgrace when it comes to any kind of future planning. They took, took and took and gave no thought to the future. Modeling your expectations on them is a sure fire way to causing the next financial crisis.
    20 -30 years ago, not half a century ago for goodness sake !

    Why would anyone become a doctor then? When they could save all the dogid determination and hard work. To instead work as and marry a London Tube driver who earns £55k. What is the incentive to become a doctor then. And it's not just pay stagnation. The NHS has suffered massive cuts meaning doctors have to work longer and harder hours for no extra pay. Imagine me telling your dad to work an whole extra day for nothing. For a couple of tube drivers that's £110k a year but they take home much much more because of less taxes. Fair ?

    The more vital your job is the more you should get paid. When you go in to hospital with a fatal injury a doctor is the one who will try everything to save your life. It's a doctor that will help you with depression, anxiety, PTSD and psychiatrists like my dad stop people from commuting suicide pretty much everyday at work. So why do they get to live worse off than a tube driver. Why is it my uncle can earn £850k a year + bonuses just by fiddling around with money all day? It's not fair. Taxes should be 40% on above 500k .
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    (Original post by _Sinnie_)
    Have you ever watched 'Call the Midwife'? I think by virtue of being born now, rather than 40/50 years ago, means you are better off. If for no other reason than the NHS, funded by these taxes you so lament. There's a whole score of things that were funded by taxes that make your life significantly better than even 30 years ago.

    I'm not really sure what you're arguing. You made the point that a family on 110k finds things difficult - that is simply not true (outside of specific circumstances) and can only be the result of mismanaging money. Whether being a doctor enables you to have the lifestyle you wish to have, in comparison to what most people on here are talking about (those on average or below average salaries) is completely moot. The doctor has significantly more than them and is in no position to talk about not getting the things that were promised to them. Think about all those people told that if they worked hard and got a degree that there would be a job waiting for them and look at all these people with useless (in terms of their jobs) degrees - perhaps they're more hard done by than the doctor with their 110k? People are being squeezed into poverty, right here, right now, in our wonderful country than came 2nd in the Olympics.

    I sure hope no one promised you a certain lifestyle. It is not owed to you. You are not entitled to it, no matter how hard you work, no matter what job you have. Doctors will always be amongst the highest paid, so becoming a doctor will put you nearer the top - whether than buys you a second hand car or a second car, well, it will be what it will be - you can't really use "I was promised a 5 bedroom house" as an excuse for a tax cut.

    Also remember, the baby boomer generation are a disgrace when it comes to any kind of future planning. They took, took and took and gave no thought to the future. Modeling your expectations on them is a sure fire way to causing the next financial crisis.
    Just read your quote "doctors will always be amongst the highest paid" .

    Excuse me ??

    Do you have any idea what kind of salaries exist?? My uncle earns £850k + bonuses every year as a hedge fund manager! CEO s make millions. An oil rig worker in Aberdeen can expect to be paid 400k. You have no idea !

    Doctors are the hardest workers and the most valuable workers of any of the ones I have just mentioned yet they get paid the least. That's one reason I'll never become a doctor. And don't think you are on £110k automatically. It takes years to get to a consultant level. It takes skill and it takes hard work. Some doctors never even become consultants they stay junior doctors. And junior doctors are not some doctors fresh from uni these are normal doctors who have been working 15 years usually. Don't tell me you haven't heard of all the **** that has been happening to so called "junior" doctors.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    20 -30 years ago, not half a century ago for goodness sake !

    Why would anyone become a doctor then? When they could save all the dogid determination and hard work. To instead work as and marry a London Tube driver who earns £55k. What is the incentive to become a doctor then. And it's not just pay stagnation. The NHS has suffered massive cuts meaning doctors have to work longer and harder hours for no extra pay. Imagine me telling your dad to work an whole extra day for nothing. For a couple of tube drivers that's £110k a year but they take home much much more because of less taxes. Fair ?

    The more vital your job is the more you should get paid. When you go in to hospital with a fatal injury a doctor is the one who will try everything to save your life. It's a doctor that will help you with depression, anxiety, PTSD and psychiatrists like my dad stop people from commuting suicide pretty much everyday at work. So why do they get to live worse off than a tube driver. Why is it my uncle can earn £850k a year + bonuses just by fiddling around with money all day? It's not fair. Taxes should be 40% on above 500k .
    1) They are already paid more than a tube driver after taxes, which is the financial incentive to not be a tube driver.
    2) If you got the cuts you have been suggesting, where do you think the tory party will attempt to make the savings? They will obviously make massive cuts to the NHS to make up for the loss of taxes on higher earners.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    20 -30 years ago, not half a century ago for goodness sake !

    Why would anyone become a doctor then? When they could save all the dogid determination and hard work. To instead work as and marry a London Tube driver who earns £55k. What is the incentive to become a doctor then. And it's not just pay stagnation. The NHS has suffered massive cuts meaning doctors have to work longer and harder hours for no extra pay. Imagine me telling your dad to work an whole extra day for nothing. For a couple of tube drivers that's £110k a year but they take home much much more because of less taxes. Fair ?

    The more vital your job is the more you should get paid.When you go in to hospital with a fatal injury a doctor is the one who will try everything to save your life. It's a doctor that will help you with depression, anxiety, PTSD and psychiatrists like my dad stop people from commuting suicide pretty much everyday at work. So why do they get to live worse off than a tube driver. Why is it my uncle can earn £850k a year + bonuses just by fiddling around with money all day? It's not fair. Taxes should be 40% on above 500k .
    That's not how economics works.

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    And this is why I plan to study and leave the country. Sick of the 'welfare state' :-)
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Just read your quote "doctors will always be amongst the highest paid" .

    Excuse me ??

    Do you have any idea what kind of salaries exist?? My uncle earns £850k + bonuses every year as a hedge fund manager! CEO s make millions. An oil rig worker in Aberdeen can expect to be paid 400k. You have no idea !

    Doctors are the hardest workers and the most valuable workers of any of the ones I have just mentioned yet they get paid the least. That's one reason I'll never become a doctor. And don't think you are on £110k automatically. It takes years to get to a consultant level. It takes skill and it takes hard work. Some doctors never even become consultants they stay junior doctors. And junior doctors are not some doctors fresh from uni these are normal doctors who have been working 15 years usually. Don't tell me you haven't heard of all the **** that has been happening to so called "junior" doctors.

    Lol, you're just pulling numbers out of thin air now

    And you really can't compare a hedge fund portfolio manager and CEO to your average doctor, that is a false equivalence. Doctors, as a collective, are some of the highest paid professionals in this country.


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    Really? Your arguments are just becoming absurd now.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    20 -30 years ago, not half a century ago for goodness sake !
    20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. What does it matter? The changes in healthcare, medicine, technology, understanding of people and so on have all yielded such massive benefits to our quality of life. Compare schools today to 20 years ago in the breadth of opportunity.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Why would anyone become a doctor then? When they could save all the dogid determination and hard work. To instead work as and marry a London Tube driver who earns £55k. What is the incentive to become a doctor then. And it's not just pay stagnation. The NHS has suffered massive cuts meaning doctors have to work longer and harder hours for no extra pay. Imagine me telling your dad to work an whole extra day for nothing. For a couple of tube drivers that's £110k a year but they take home much much more because of less taxes. Fair ?
    Well, I'd hope because they want to help people. I sincerely hope people aren't becoming doctors for the money...

    It's not just doctors who are feeling the squeeze you know, at least they get paid an awful lot of money to do it. If you want to sympathise with anyone in the NHS, its the nurses. They are the workhorses and backbone of the NHS and get paid no where near 110k. Nurses range from band 5 (21k starting) to a small percentage on band 7 (maxing at 41k). They need help far more than a doctor does. Nurses have been doing hours and hours of overtime, for free, for years. The NHS is run on the goodwill of its staff.

    Then there are the support workers and nursing assistants, who start on 16k and do some of the most mentally and phyiscally demanding jobs there is. Having been a part time suppport worker for 4 years, I am confident I could not do it for my whole life.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    The more vital your job is the more you should get paid. When you go in to hospital with a fatal injury a doctor is the one who will try everything to save your life. It's a doctor that will help you with depression, anxiety, PTSD and psychiatrists like my dad stop people from commuting suicide pretty much everyday at work. So why do they get to live worse off than a tube driver. Why is it my uncle can earn £850k a year + bonuses just by fiddling around with money all day? It's not fair. Taxes should be 40% on above 500k .
    What will a surgeon do with a dead body? I wonder how vital the paramedic is to you actually getting to the hospital alive? Go check out their pay scales.
    Doctors prescribe drugs for mental disorders - without going into that debate too much - they do little to address the actual problems.

    Your dad does not stop people from committing suicide every day. I've worked with some of the riskiest young people in the country for 3 and a half years and I've never seen, nor heard of, a psychiatrist directly intervening in any kind of incident (and they wouldn't be expected to either). The support workers, nursing assistant and nurses do all the direct care (we keep coming back to these guys). Not that Psychiatrists aren't a vital part of the care team, just that they are not solo workers by any means.

    People get paid what the market deems their job is worth. Welcome to capitalism, nothing you can do about and nothing you probably should do about it. The job of society is to ensure that appropriate taxes are collected and spent properly. People earning 110k are perfectly capable of shouldering some of this burden.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Just read your quote "doctors will always be amongst the highest paid" .

    Excuse me ??

    Do you have any idea what kind of salaries exist?? My uncle earns £850k + bonuses every year as a hedge fund manager! CEO s make millions. An oil rig worker in Aberdeen can expect to be paid 400k. You have no idea !
    I think it is you who has no idea. What percentage of the workforce do you think people like your uncle constitute?

    The average salary is ~£26k. Plus the significant skew effect of high earners (take your 850k uncle, how many 20k earners does it require to bring the average back to 26k?). That means well over 50% of people earn under 26k - I don't know the actual numbers. But then a lot of people are in the main professional bracket (30-50k). Earning 110k easily puts you in the top 10%, if not the top 5%. You are one of the most fortunate families in the whole country, you really have to stop acting like a victim.

    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Doctors are the hardest workers and the most valuable workers of any of the ones I have just mentioned yet they get paid the least. That's one reason I'll never become a doctor. And don't think you are on £110k automatically. It takes years to get to a consultant level. It takes skill and it takes hard work. Some doctors never even become consultants they stay junior doctors. And junior doctors are not some doctors fresh from uni these are normal doctors who have been working 15 years usually. Don't tell me you haven't heard of all the **** that has been happening to so called "junior" doctors.
    I'm well aware of the ins and outs of the medical profession. An F1 doctor starts on £26k, placing them bang on average - from there the direction is up. Junior doctors are in no way destitute and are still well and away earning more than the majority of people.

    You also completely fail to recognise the inherent job satisfaction that comes from being a doctor and helping people.
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    (Original post by BrainDrain)
    When has it ever been much different?
    When it was much higher before thatcher came to power


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    I'm amused by the discourse on this thread as whenever I bring this up I'm slated.

    It isn't that a 60k take home pay from 100k is too little it's the fact that the price you pay for a home is too high.

    That's where a very large section of that 60k is going.

    That is the difference between 1996 and 2016


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    Until people stop expecting the state to run their lives for them, taxation will never go down. This is the one big issue I have with many on the Left.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Until people stop expecting the state to run their lives for them, taxation will never go down. This is the one big issue I have with many on the Left.


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    I'm curious as to which bits that the state currently run that you think people are better off doing themselves?
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    (Original post by _Sinnie_)
    I'm curious as to which bits that the state currently run that you think people are better off doing themselves
    Running your own life and 'doing things yourself' are two very different statements.
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    (Original post by _Sinnie_)
    The average salary is ~£26k. Plus the significant skew effect of high earners (take your 850k uncle, how many 20k earners does it require to bring the average back to 26k?). That means well over 50% of people earn under 26k - I don't know the actual numbers. But then a lot of people are in the main professional bracket (30-50k). Earning 110k easily puts you in the top 10%, if not the top 5%. You are one of the most fortunate families in the whole country, you really have to stop acting like a victim.
    It's an order of magnitude worse than even you estimate. £110k gross income puts you well inside the top 1% of earners in this country.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Running your own life and 'doing things yourself' are two very different statements.
    What you mean is paying someone less fortunate than you a pittance to do all the chores you're too lazy to do and too tight to pay the council to do.
 
 
 
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