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    (Original post by Zeus007)
    I'm not a big fan of religion either however people should be able to live their lives without other people telling them how to live it, as long as they live their lives in a way that it doesn't effect other people. Do tell me how Jews having their own schools or Muslims doing something similar effect you in a bad way so that i can understand your stance.
    I don't need to be personally affected to be against religious schools. They indoctrinate children whilst a secular education could give them a better insight of the rest of society, thus giving them a kind of choice in their life.
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    Every day Jews are assaulted, spat on and treated like **** in Paris

    But god forbid a shopowner refuses to serve a Muslim, no insults nothing. Just refuses to serve him and there is mass Media outrage

    Meanwhile THIS is reality in Paris, but there is no 10 page student room thread on this stuff that takes place

    every

    single

    day

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AltyhmrIFgo
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    (Original post by slaven)
    I was the owner I would require a code dress from the guest. Just like you cannot go into the resaturant unhygenic and without decent dressing, so you cannot enter with a burka.
    I don't really see the point of using a burka in a restaurant.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I don't need to be personally affected to be against religious schools. They indoctrinate children whilst a secular education could give them a better insight of the rest of society, thus giving them a kind of choice in their life.
    I agree with you but even if there weren't religious schools, parents could still indoctrinate children at home too. Either way they are the parents and have the right to raise their children how they wish and we cant do anything about that.

    This is however a different topic, i still stand firm in my opinion that any restaurant owner should be ashamed if they choose to ban a certain religion from going their. Its going backwards rather than forward as it does not help anyone and makes you look like an *******.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    But a secretary is likely to serve a single boss. Yet I am sure you would have a lawsuit on your hands if you said no to Muslims. And true maybe the relationship is not as intimate as with children, but you will still be close to that person, you must get along and you must respect each other. What if none of that is possible?
    But the secretary fails on the other criteria. Most people only work one job at a time, and while being someone's secretary is frequently a close professional relationship, it doesn't involve fitting oneself into the employer's private life. In any case, if the employer is terminally hung up on this, there is always the opportunity for discrimination at the interview stage, which although unlawful can be easily explained away.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    But the secretary fails on the other criteria. Most people only work one job at a time, and while being someone's secretary is frequently a close professional relationship, it doesn't involve fitting oneself into the employer's private life. In any case, if the employer is terminally hung up on this, there is always the opportunity for discrimination at the interview stage, which although unlawful can be easily explained away.
    So all of a sudden it's ok because it's easily explained away?

    We are talking hypotheticals here anyway.
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    (Original post by Zeus007)
    I agree with you but even if there weren't religious schools, parents could still indoctrinate children at home too. Either way they are the parents and have the right to raise their children how they wish and we cant do anything about that.
    The idea of a secular education is that it gives children another picture.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Just a matter of time before you'd be back :rolleyes:

    And why should I stay in? Maybe the hijabis can stay in if they get offended if I show dislike for their choice?
    And there lies the distinction between implicit symbolism (in your mind) and explicit expression of dislike and hatred.

    I think you would find if you gave this any more thought, not that you ever do, that in general we tend to treat men and women equal in this covering up, and there are many people for example arguing its sexist that men can be bare chested but women not.
    And I happen to agree with the argument that it's sexist, and I support the legalisation and normalisation of toplessness for women. Does it mean I'm going to vilify and discriminate against those women who cover up their breasts? Of course not. How absurd.

    Of course the argument here is that women's boobs are seen as sexual mens not and using that same logic would mean that a woman's hair is sexual but a man's isn't. Now I suppose it would be fair to say well they just have different ideas than we do. However, they also have it written all over their holy book that women are inferior.
    Inferior in what sense?

    In fact, Hanwar was so nice to point out the other day that at least she (though she seemed to be speaking for more than herself) that a woman has to obey her husband and that we have high divorce rates because we don't have that here.
    I don't care what HAnwar thinks. But interestingly enough, I think you'll find most people, with the exception of defunct matriarchal societies, agree with a variant of the belief that men should ideally "lead" in some sense. In fact you'll find stronger wording in the Bible wherein wives are asked to submit to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ in everything. But just like the Bible is open to interpretion, so is the Qur'an. You'll find plenty of Christian and Muslim feminists who would interpret these verses in light of feminism: https://orbala.wordpress.com/books-on-islamic-feminism/

    Moreover the idea that feminism is cancer, that men should be more in-charge is surprisingly popular amongst the anti-PC alt right crowd. This isn't an Islamic idea.

    In that context, I would prefer to live in a society where we do not accept a certain group of people practicing this.
    What business is it of yours if a person wishes to practise his/her religion provided it doesn't harm you or anyone else? What makes you think the rest of us should modify our practises to appease fanatics like you?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    No, but it's why I shall be using the only tool I do have , democracy, and be voting AfD just to piss self righteous muppets like you the **** off, who will cry about the right extremism gripping Europe.
    Well if you want to waste your vote just to "piss self-righteous muppets like me the **** off" be my guest. The majority of people in Germany are sober, sensible adults, who will vote for proper parties with considered stances on a number of issues, most of them far more important than the feeling of "sticking it to the PC liberal establishment" or hating on Muslims.

    And as I have quoted almost every time this topic comes up, if we are tolerant of the intolerant then there will eventually be no tolerance left. You don't even need to go to Muslim countries anymore to see what it's like to live under their culture. Plenty of western cities are example enough. And with their birth rates, if we don't act it will end badly. And you might argue well that's fine, but I don't think it is, I think we owe it to our future generations to act. I do and so do many others. So you can insult me all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
    I am not tolerant of intolerance, which is the basis of my arguing against you: you are extremely intolerant. Meanwhile, there is no intolerance whatsoever in the beliefs or practices of normal Muslims living in Western countries, and wherever there is I argue against that specific issue.

    Ironically your stances certainly help the radical Islamists achieve their aim of provoking ethno-religious strife, fear, social division and the general collapse of civilisation in the West.

    Muslim birth rates and incoming immigration are being used to prop up Germany's economic growth in the face of the kind of stagnation happening all over the Western world, because we basically have everything we need already. Even so, in the UK Muslim birth rates have tended to drop precipitously, just as Indian birth rates did before them. On current trends by mid-century Muslims will be having no more children than white natives, and Germany will have to do something else about how its demographics are below replacement rate.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    So all of a sudden it's ok because it's easily explained away?

    We are talking hypotheticals here anyway.
    No, it's still unlawful, just pointing out that it can be done without much fear of reprisals. Do note that I am not making a value judgement, just saying how such discrimination is against the law. (Again, what this means is that the racist/Islamophobic employer is not compatible with, or integrated into, Western society, since his beliefs run counter to our democratically drafted legislation.)
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Islam = ideology
    Black = race

    A black person cannot choose his skin color. A Muslim chose his or her ideology.

    You are perfectly well allowed to discriminate based on people's opinion.
    BRB, being arachnophobic towards tall buildings. Homophobic towards sharks. This is as dumb as when people say prejudice towards those who follow an ideology (Islam) is racist.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    No, it's still unlawful, just pointing out that it can be done without much fear of reprisals. Do note that I am not making a value judgement, just saying how such discrimination is against the law. (Again, what this means is that the racist/Islamophobic employer is not compatible with, or integrated into, Western society, since his beliefs run counter to our democratically drafted legislation.)
    I appreciate that it is against the law. I even wrote that in a previous post that the EU Human Rights Convention is opposing my view. I am merely stating my opinion here. I find it quite despicable that we do not have the freedom to discriminate based on political/religious belief. Freedom is a very fine line, by giving it to some, you take it from others.

    I do not agree with that. We get to question our laws and morals. These change over time, too. Islamic morals cannot change by definition. The Quran is meant to be the eternal word of God.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    BRB, being arachnophobic towards tall buildings. Homophobic towards sharks. This is as dumb as when people say prejudice towards those who follow an ideology (Islam) is racist.
    Cool story.

    Although I do in fact agree with the latter part of the last sentence.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Well if you want to waste your vote just to "piss self-righteous muppets like me the **** off" be my guest. The majority of people in Germany are sober, sensible adults, who will vote for proper parties with considered stances on a number of issues, most of them far more important than the feeling of "sticking it to the PC liberal establishment" or hating on Muslim.
    You would be surprised. As was Austria. And this is a protest vote. The mainstream parties will pick up on it and adapt their stance.



    I am not tolerant of intolerance, which is the basis of my arguing against you: you are extremely intolerant. Meanwhile, there is no intolerance whatsoever in the beliefs or practices of normal Muslims living in Western countries, and wherever there is I argue against that specific issue.
    Islam is an incredibly intolerant religion. Your entire argument is based on the fact that supposedly on the outside Muslims in the West aren't as bad as they are in Muslim countries. That they have "integrated". There is plenty of evidence in European cities that beg to differ.

    Ironically your stances certainly help the radical Islamists achieve their aim of provoking ethno-religious strife, fear, social division and the general collapse of civilisation in the West.
    Hyperbole much? Collapse? The biggest problem we have arose from the fact that we wanted to be good people and help those in need. Those whose neighbours including oil-rich neighbours wouldn't take.

    Muslim birth rates and incoming immigration are being used to prop up Germany's economic growth in the face of the kind of stagnation happening all over the Western world, because we basically have everything we need already. Even so, in the UK Muslim birth rates have tended to drop precipitously, just as Indian birth rates did before them. On current trends by mid-century Muslims will be having no more children than white natives, and Germany will have to do something else about how its demographics are below replacement rate.
    That is a fair point. But nowhere near as important as you make out to be. Of the more than a million already having come, and awful lot are never going to be successful.

    And yes, the richer a people get, the less kids they have. But if you want to take that chance, be my guest. Erdogan is already making Islamist propaganda in Germany. Turkish origin German MPs have been assaulted for their vote in the Armenia resolution. They try to influence school curricula.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    BRB, being arachnophobic towards tall buildings. Homophobic towards sharks. This is as dumb as when people say prejudice towards those who follow an ideology (Islam) is racist.
    its also a religion and way of life, culture, etc...

    I think people are eager to dismiss it aside as an 'ideology' because its more easy to draw out comparisons to Nazism and attack Islam.
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    People are outraged in the LGBT scenario but couldn't care less when it's Muslims facing discrimination.
    "Couldn't care less" is a bizarre way to describe front page news and nationwide condemnation and outcry in a country that isn't even the one it's happening in :confused:

    Countless people in the media of all denominations are slamming this. Just like Muslims were coming out in droves to condemn the Christians in the LGBT scenario in support of the gay couple............Oh wait
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I don't really see the point of using a burka in a restaurant.
    Maybe it has some hole where food goes into mouth, I really do not know...
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    the food probably wasn't even halal
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    its also a religion
    With varied interpretations. But do you think religion should be immune to criticism?

    and way of life, culture, etc...
    A 'way of life/culture' that in some interpretations permit what would commonly be seen as reprehensible - (even amongst some Muslims - varying in their interpretations and religiosity) - for example slavery, FGM, persecution of apostates, blasphemers, homosexuals etc.

    Is a 'way of life/culture' immune to criticism and opposition?

    I think people are eager to dismiss it aside as an 'ideology' because its more easy to draw out comparisons to Nazism and attack Islam.
    Would you seek some sort of blasphemy law, preventing criticisms (or "attacks") on Islam? - a religion that makes various claims concerning the universe and humanity, would you recommend avoiding scrunity, criticism and opposition to Islam?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    B it wasn't some mystical essential component of German nationality which made the Nazis possible,.
    the Nazis had a very strong mystique, tied to Germanic mythology, "Blut und Boden", the original Germanic forest, but also irrationalist philosophers etc etc

    they referred to a vastly imaginary past, the time of the Volkerwanderung, and then of the first Germanic Emperors

    to a certain extent, they can be considered as the last offshoot of degenerate German irrationalism/romanticism ..

    Personally, I see many analogies between salvific political movements such as National Socialism or Communism and religions. But this is a huge subject in itself

    best
 
 
 
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