Corbyn wins again!

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    As a major political party leader - and the leader of her Majesty's official Opposition and a Privy Council member, no less - he is part of the establishment.
    The Establishment want to go to wars in other countries pretending it's for "humanitarian crisis", overthrowing Governments, killing their leaders, leaving power vacuums causing ISIS and Al Qaeda to take a stronghold. Causing all sorts of problems, resulting in refugee crisis's.

    I don't see Corbyn backing illegal wars or overthrows of Governments in other countries.
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    (Original post by suky321)
    The Establishment want to go to wars in other countries pretending it's for "humanitarian crisis", overthrowing Governments, killing their leaders, leaving power vacuums causing ISIS and Al Qaeda to take a stronghold. Causing all sorts of problems, resulting in refugee crisis's.

    I don't see Corbyn backing illegal wars or overthrows of Governments in other countries.
    You seem to think that this establishment speaks with one voice. Corbyn himself, part of the establishment, demonstrates that is doesn't.

    Unless you are calling anyone who supported the Iraq war as being part of the establishment and all those against it as anti-establishment. But then, that is also nonsense.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    For someone who claims to be basically supported by the whole membership, whose surrogates claim the PLP is alone and it's the PLP against the members, for around 4 in 10 and almost 200,000 Labour members and supporters to have voted for Owen Smith, in spite of the bullying, in spite of the threats, in spite of the intimidation, is remarkable.
    I always thought bullying was when a big gang get together to kick out a smaller group. The vast majority of dirty tricks in the campaign were instigated by the anti-Corbyn faction.

    It completely undermines Corbyn's claim that he represents everyone outside the PLP.
    He has only ever claimed that he represents the majority of members supporters and affiliates, which he clearly does.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You seem to think that this establishment speaks with one voice. Corbyn himself, part of the establishment, demonstrates that is doesn't.

    Unless you are calling anyone who supported the Iraq war as being part of the establishment and all those against it as anti-establishment. But then, that is also nonsense.
    You seem to be using semantics to make your point rather than real argument.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    You seem to be using semantics to make your point rather than real argument.
    My point is that Corbyn is part of the establishment. He may not want to be, may not be comfortable being there, may not be competent in his role, but he is part of the establishment.

    Had he stuck to his "principles" and declined Privy Council membership, had he remained on the backbenches, then he could reasonably be claimed to be anti-establishment, or at least not of it.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    That's why I referred to the Northern Ireland system of government pre-72 as being almost apartheid-like. There were very real and valid grievances in the Catholic community around their civil rights. Once the UK abolished the Northern Ireland parliament and ministry, and took them into direct rule, many of those issues were dealt with as the London government had a very strong interest in resolving those issues.
    Your analysis is an oversimplification. The Catholic community was not only oppressed by the UK government they were oppress locally by the Protestant community. The other thing you seem to ignore is that the Irish had a very long and bad history with the UK and were not going to immediately trust any agreement, and certainly did not want rule from Westminster.


    In the end the IRA accepted partition. That shows their campaign was fundamentally unjust.
    As you already stated what they really wanted was a united Ireland, the partition was a compromise.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    He has a few, but he won't have any opportunity to get traction on them because it will become a national security election. From day one, the Tories will open up on Corbyn about the money he took from a regime that lynches gay people, his praise for terrorist groups like the IRA, his friendships with people who say adulterous women should be stoned to death.

    Corbyn will be doing a radio interview and the host will wheel out the child of one of the women who was killed in the IRA bombing of the Grand Hotel in 1984; the bombing Corbyn refused to condemn and blamed on the government, followed by the sick "joke", "What do you call five dead Tories? A good start".

    The government will wheel out on cue probably some LGBT Iranian refugee who was given asylum under this government who will tear Corbyn to shreds on the business deal he agreed with the Iranian government to shill for them on television for £20,000.

    He will be painted, with considerable justification, as a threat to national security. It will be pointed out that he wants to conclude an appallingly imperialistic deal with Argentina to hand over the Falkland Islands to them, contrary to the wishes of the Falkland Islanders themselves and with a nauseating contempt for the hundreds of British soldiers and sailors who lost their lives taking it back from the Argentine fascist junta.

    Corbyn finds it difficult enough to just hold on to the support he already has in normal, everyday politics. In the intensity of a general election he will crumble. From the first day he will be on the back foot over his terrorist connections and corruption, and he will never take back the initiative. If Corbyn can't even convince someone like me, a Labour member and former branch treasurer, a former trade union officer, to vote for him, he simply can't win. He can't win if he can't convince someone like me, who is to the left of most of the population.

    Surrendering to ISIS is not a popular policy. A very clear majority of those with a view support continuing airstrikes against these genocidal fascists. The people who are opposed tend to be those on the hard left and far isolationist right (in other words, not swing voters in marginal seats who are the ones Corbyn has to persuade)

    Geeze. On polling day your world is going to turn upside down. Your grasp on reality seem tenuous, at best.
    If you think the public are going to vote based of these obscure things on your list or take notice of anyone who brings them up, you are the one without a grasp on reality. If Blair can openly take us into an illegal war and still get re-elected, it is quite clear the public don't vote based on nasty things that happen to foreigners, and certainly not against people with tenuous links to them.
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    This result confirms what everyone including the coup plotters knew right from the start, which is why they went for the 'vote of no confidence method'. They should have just left it there, when it failed. Instead they went for this pointless and distracting long drawn out slanging match, which has had a much more detrimental effect on the Labour Party's chances of winning than Corbyn ever could.
    The plotters in PLP tried to tell us all they knew better. This failed challenge without any new policies other than the suggestion another EU referendum, merely confirms that they have no real alternatives to offer, are were simply on a self destructive ego trip against someone who wasn't in their elitist club.

    The worst thing is that they may have squandered the best opportunity for power they had. Had the 'moderates' got behind Corbyn and attacked the Tories over Brexit and their other elitist policies when they were weakened, they could have forced and won an election. They could have softened any policies they felt were going too left, cashed in on the big growth of members on the ground and gained the extra new voters Corbyn would have attracted from the anti-austerity crowd..
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    The plotters in PLP tried to tell us all they knew better.
    You are ignoring completely the whole thrust of the MPs' argument, which is obvious to the whole country other than the gleeful lefties who are now running amok in the Labour party. This is that Corbyn may have been elected PLP leader but he hasn't got the skills and personality to be a leader.

    In fact, he couldn't lead a cow to the milking shed, and he - a constant rebel - has no basis on which to enforce the whip on his MPs. He has no chance of being able to dictate strategies and enforce discipline whatever.

    The MPs see this and the public sees this but the lefties, so delighted to have broken into the sweetshop, appear to be wilfully blind to such a fatal flaw and are too busy stealing the sherbet lemons to notice that there is a car with flashing blue lights parked outside the door with a bunch of taser-armed bobbies wielding handcuffs awaiting them.
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    I honestly can't see Labour winning the next General Election
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You are ignoring completely the whole thrust of the MPs' argument, which is obvious to the whole country other than the gleeful lefties who are now running amok in the Labour party. This is that Corbyn may have been elected PLP leader but he hasn't got the skills and personality to be a leader.

    In fact, he couldn't lead a cow to the milking shed, and he - a constant rebel - has no basis on which to enforce the whip on his MPs. He has no chance of being able to dictate strategies and enforce discipline whatever.

    The MPs see this and the public sees this but the lefties, so delighted to have broken into the sweetshop, appear to be wilfully blind to such a fatal flaw and are too busy stealing the sherbet lemons to notice that there is a car with flashing blue lights parked outside the door with a bunch of taser-armed bobbies wielding handcuffs awaiting them.
    So where was their wonderful replacement. If the best they could do was Owen Smith, then they are worse than Corbyn. Corbyn maybe offers a different leadership style.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    . Corbyn maybe offers a different leadership style.
    He certainly does. But different isn't always better, and Corbyn shows that.

    His leadership seems to go thus:

    JC, pre-election: I wanna be leader! Me! Me I wanna be leader! Nominate me please.

    JC (later): Wow! I've been elected. I'm the leader.

    JC (at the first meeting): OK, what are we going to do?


    JC, later: How do we do this, John?

    The candidacy of Smith merely shows how far left the party has lurched, and how unelectable it has become. But electability does not seem to be an issue for it.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    My point is that Corbyn is part of the establishment. He may not want to be, may not be comfortable being there, may not be competent in his role, but he is part of the establishment.

    Had he stuck to his "principles" and declined Privy Council membership, had he remained on the backbenches, then he could reasonably be claimed to be anti-establishment, or at least not of it.
    Nail. Head. Hit.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    So where was their wonderful replacement. If the best they could do was Owen Smith, then they are worse than Corbyn. Corbyn maybe offers a different leadership style.
    All the sensible Tory Lites (aka traitors to the Corbynistas) knew that the entryists and infiltrators would guarantee a Jezbollah victory. Corbyn's leadership election victories are more to do with the cultists than his own leadership qualities.
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    (Original post by viffer)
    All the sensible Tory Lites (aka traitors to the Corbynistas) knew that the entryists and infiltrators would guarantee a Jezbollah victory. Corbyn's leadership election victories are more to do with the cultists than his own leadership qualities.
    This just dodges the issue that they didn't have anyone better, or even any better ideas to offer. They put up poor old Owen Smith and mimicked Corbyn's policies. This by people who claim they know best is pathetic.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    This just dodges the issue that they didn't have anyone better, or even any better ideas to offer. They put up poor old Owen Smith and mimicked Corbyn's policies. This by people who claim they know best is pathetic.
    How naive and blinkered can you be?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    He certainly does. But different isn't always better, and Corbyn shows that.

    His leadership seems to go thus:

    JC, pre-election: I wanna be leader! Me! Me I wanna be leader! Nominate me please.

    JC (later): Wow! I've been elected. I'm the leader.

    JC (at the first meeting): OK, what are we going to do?


    JC, later: How do we do this, John?

    The candidacy of Smith merely shows how far left the party has lurched, and how unelectable it has become. But electability does not seem to be an issue for it.
    This merely illustrates Corbyn's own surprise that people believe in what he stands for. He may well have believed the same media rhetoric that you do. In contrast to the perceived logic, hundreds of thousands of people were paying attention when he was put on the ticket. They saw in him a chance to break the entrenchment of a political system that has for years denied them any control over who governs them and what that government does. Trends are there to be bucked.
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    (Original post by viffer)
    How naive and blinkered can you be?
    Open my eyes with your wisdom.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Open my eyes with your wisdom.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    I always thought bullying was when a big gang get together to kick out a smaller group.
    Like an abusive, vitriolic, intimidating group supported by the leader and around 6 in 10 Labour members threatening to deselect MPs who don't get down and worship the Blessed Jeremy?

    The vast majority of dirty tricks in the campaign were instigated by the anti-Corbyn faction.
    Like what? Can you name any? The dirtyest of dirty tricks in this campaign was from Corbyn's office and surrogates, proposing a policy devised on the back of a fag packet (to remove patent box funding) purely out of a desire to spite Owen Smith and draw attention to the fact he worked for a pharmaceutical company. And the Corbyn campaigns continuous insinuation that somehow Owen Smith used to be a right-winger, some kind of evil Blairite pro-privatisation nut, when that is completely untrue and dishonest.

    Because in the Corbynite mindset, working for a pharmaceutical company (unlike Corbyn who came from an extremely privileged background and was lucky to trip over and land as the MP of a safe labour seat, most of us don't have a huge amount of choice in who we work for), in Corbynite mindset working for a pharma company is an intolerable and unforgivable, evil right-wing act. But taking £20,000 from a regime that lynches gay people, as Corbyn did... that's apparently just an expression of his unblemished character and morality.

    Owen Smith totally pulled his punches, and failed to really hit Corbyn hard on his support for terrorist murderers, his friendships with holocaust deniers, his business deals with homophobic killers and his friendships with people who say adulterous women should be stoned. He did this because to win he needed around a fifth of Corbyn supporters to change their mind and support him, and he knew that the hysterical, angry, hypocritical mindset of the Corbynite means that they get angry at anyone pointing out Corbyn and their hypocrisy and moral corruption.

    He has only ever claimed that he represents the majority of members supporters and affiliates
    No, he claimed that the PLP needs to "get behind the members", as if all members support him when in fact almost 200,000 of them oppose him.
 
 
 
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