intellectual snobbery? Watch

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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#161
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#161
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
thankyouß I think youre right
No problem Take the good advice given by others about the kinds of discussions/language you should have/use with your friends but don't take all of the horrible comments here to heart. Some people don't seem to have read your posts properly
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chad_ch
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#162
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#162
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
well to be fair to you I really didnt explain my case at all well- but in my defence I think the last paragraph does kind of explain why this is in the oxbridge forum. I have grown up in oxford and what I am talking about is a divide between people who are 'academic' and those who are seen or see themselves as 'normal'. I am genuinely concerned that having got a place at cambridge through hard work and come to have a basic understanding of literature and academic thought, I am through arrogance or snobbery isolating my friends by making them feel stupid or just being up myself without realising it. What I wanted peoples opinions on is how far in their experience there is something self-satisfied, arrogant or snobbish about the oxbridge culture, which is more pertinent to me because I live in Oxford and all my friends live here.

So I think this is about oxbridge- and only people who have experience of oxbridge academics will have the relevant experience to answer my question- and that would be people who use the oxbridge forum. The health and relationships forum is more about things like sex,friendship and social life so this doesnt fit any better there, and this isnt about IQ- its about where what I always thought of as an interest is being marred by my arrogance or generally by the tendency towards arrogance in the oxbridge culture

If something I said indicated I think I have a massive intellect then please quote it specifically because I didnt think thats what I suggested- I certainly didnt mean to.

I am preoccupied with my own intelligence because I have realised recently that because I have managed to persevere so quickly in english (really thanks to my teachers), that Im getting ahead of myself or Im starting to become self-congratulatory and become an academic snob (even when I dont really have reason to). I am preoccupied with the difficulty of pursuing a genuine interest in literature which Im lucky to be able to understand in an academic way, and falling into the trap of putting myself above people and just having the pretence of being clever when in fact I dont really understand anything.

I dont really see what opportunity I have to 'have my ego massaged' because Im drawing attention to the fault I have of not being able to recognise how to be considerate and fit in with my friends and the fact Im being arrogant without knowing it- and the point that maybe Im not all that clever anyway- as people have duly pointed out

I might be wrong here- but why would I ask people if Im in danger of being arrogant and snobbish if not to try and 'get over myself'?
i think the problem is that people are seeing you as just another poncy arts student who thinks too highly of herself. just don't worry about what you sound like - when you get to Oxford your classmates will heart literature like you and have the capibility of reading between the lines like you so yeah.

also, I read Emma before I studied it and it is a god-awful book by anyone's standards. the plot line is incredibly convuluted (not to mention boring), the characters caricatures and Emma herself a terrible heroine! did you genuinely care about her at any point in the story?
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butterfly_girl_5
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#163
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#163
(Original post by aspiringlawyer)
Conclusive proof that you are a COMPLETE intellectual snob.

'likes to think she is intellectual'.

Since when does having an Oxbridge offer/going to Oxbridge ( I forget what stage you're at) qualify you to decide whether your peers are academic or not. What a ridiculously snobby judgment. That statement illustrates why people seem riled when you talk all akademik like to dem, y'get me?

General rule: People don't like being patronised.
this is very long so you dont have to read it-

I dont think thats completely true. I find it impossible to have a conversation with this girl about literature or politics. Its not a case of her not being intelligent- the problem is that she just cant think rationally and doesnt really understand of try to understand concepts like what a word really means. This is nothing to do with whether or not shes clever- its to do with the kind of person she is. Lots of people who are intelligent but maybe didnt get an offer from oxbridge (maybe becuase they didnt apply) can have very complex debates and express themselves very articulately. But they still dont consider themselves 'academic' because they see it as something theyre not into.

Its difficult to talk to her because she doesnt listen to what other people say and she doesnt come across as trying to understand what you mean. She makes rather sweeping statements like - 'I hate Othello' because she thought the main character is stupid- rather than try and give the play a chance as a piece of drama. She has every right to do that- its her choice, and its not my place to tell her to try harder to understand people or texts- but the fact she isnt very sympathetic to other peoples opinions or to why a book or play is held in such high regard does limit what we can talk about- which made me fell slightly frustrated.

But of course I was wrong to say shes not interested in things in an academic way, because the only reason I can is because Ive had the good luck to be taught how to think academically- I dont think shes been given a chance, because shes always had bad english teachers (ive had most of them too) and her parents arent themselves very rational reasonable people (thats just my experience).

So just to explain- the statement was that she (for whatever reason) is not as 'academic' as me- in my opinion. Even if its not her fault shes not and equally even though I cant take credit for the fact I am (to a limited extent) its my opinion she doenst really have a realistic view of herself, because she maybe doesnt realise she isnt very good at communicating with people rationally.

I didnt say anything about the fact I have an oxbridge offer has anything explicitly to do with my friendship with this girl- at least not in the post your refering to.

but if when you have a conversation with someone and they keep getting defensive (its not just me who thinks she gets very defensive and doesnt listen) and you have to explain to her exaclty what you mean by terms like 'democracy' because she doesnt consider that her understanding of it might not be other peoples- then it does limit what you can talk about and makes everything you do say more difficult. Which is why its then frustrating when she thinks she is interested in 'academic thought' (part of which I thought was reasoning- something I dont claim to be good at myself, but I try)
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butterfly_girl_5
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#164
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#164
(Original post by Zoedotdot)

OP - I don't think you are intellectually snobbish, but people can feel put down just by someone who is intelligent and who shows it. Although one thing I will say is that preferring to approach books emotionally rather than from a perspective of critical theory isn't really a bad thing at all - that's what they're written for isn't it?
Agreed.

The only thing that you can ever be certain of is what you feel and experience.
When I talk about my interest in critical approaches- its only to shape and explore my emotional response to and enjoyment of a text. I genuine feel that I am interested in how using critical responses help me understand what the text deals with in terms of ideas and emotions- and the nature of my response to them. and Literature and Intellect are most interesting and most significant in how they shape the way we experience our lives and experience our emotions.

I think Im just lucky that I am (just beginning) to form an understanding of how to talk critically and intellectually about how I feel and respond to a text (rather than just pretencious bulls### which is only useful for exams.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#165
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#165
(Original post by jismith1989)
:p: What people think is rarely indicative of the truth. Though you may, indeed, be; I'm in no position to judge.

What I do want to say, however, is that the two institutions of Oxford and Cambridge are given much more esteem by the public at large than they perhaps deserve, and this, I believe, may create a dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy, thereby diminishing the efforts of those at other universities, less illustrious. When I applied for Oxford (I didn't get an interview, as my attained grades weren't up to it, but I was insubordinate nonetheless) my family were so excited at the prospect that I could be going to... Oxford. However, they showed little enthusiasm when I was finally given offers at other universities (some with perhaps 'better' reputations than my chosen university of Manchester). Such a prejudice, I believe without having done a representative survey, is held by a large swathe of the population. This selfsame swathe will to some extent include employers, and thus oftentimes, or sometimes, prejudice (rather than true, objective judgement, which I advocate) may afflict hard-working students at other universities.

Of course, I recognise that the teaching quality at Oxbridge is of a quality rarely surpassed, with the such resources as the tutorial system at hand, as well as the wide range of high-quality extra-curricular activities on offer. However, the work of a university student is, to a large extent, independent in its nature. And as such one's university can only dictate one's academic standing to a very vicarious and peripheral degree.

I accept that there are most probably a great many more students who revel in academia at Oxbridge than at supposedly lesser institutions. But what we should remember is that roughly 90% of Oxbridge students come from a middle-class background, 50% from private schools: this is highly representative of society at large. I do not want to get into a debate regarding the hypothesised (not by myself, though) superior potential of the middle class. What I shall say, though, is that these statistics tacitly show that Oxbridge is not attainable for everyone who is of the intelligence perhaps to achieve well there, for a great many reasons. And thus a position that Oxbridge -- and by association all students thereat -- is absolutely at the top of the academic hierarchy is not a very tenable one. I recommend that we should accept the very real achievements of those at these two universities; we should not, however, judge these achievements by a scale different from that of others students. There are a great many ambitious students out there, as there are a great many with little or no ambition, and we should not create an educational apartheid, based on aristocratic undertones.

(Wow, that was quite an essay! )
I dont care if it was a thesis- I think youre the first person who's actually talked about you experience of the oxbridge culture- thankyou. I'll try to respond since you took the time to write so much

I think the reason people put oxbridge on a pedestal is maybe that the stringent and thorough app. process means its deemed harder to get into and that the students are more carefully selected according to their potential. I think there is some truth in this- but Ive come to think that as far as teaching goes- its just a shame oxbridge is the only place where you get enough attention from your teachers. The academic standard of professors and teachingis definitely very high in all the top unis- its certainly debatetable whether oxbridge is in anyway better in those two areas, as is the standard of the degree (this is just my experience- I dont claim to be any sort of an expert)

I think what makes Oxbridge unique is more that its broken down into smaller units by the collegiate system and that and the tutorial system just means its more personalised and possibly in that way more demanding. The other side is the tradition- that really attracted me to Cambridge (formal dinners included) but some people honestly arent and would willingly choose manchester anyday.

I certainly agree with what I put in bold. I readily admit I wouldnt have had a fighting chance at getting an offer if I hadnt gone to a private 6th form and had the teaching I had. even though I have a privaledged background (financially, emotionally and culturally) and went to a decent state comp. in oxford, and hadthe benefit of living in a place like oxford. As you said, there are a lot of reasons for this.

The term you used- academic apartheid I think absolutely is a problem in this country. Partly because there are two very established and very highly regarded institutions- but I think there is something about the oxbridge culture that comes into it- thats what I really want to get to the bottom of for my own sake.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#166
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#166
(Original post by Greatleysteg)
I agree with what you've said, but it's completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

:p:
just out of interest- what do you personally think is the matter at hand?

because I think most people arent talking about what I intended it to be originally (I concede that was to a great extent my fault)
this is the only response that has actually talked about the oxbridge culture in anyway
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butterfly_girl_5
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#167
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#167
(Original post by asdfghjkl123456789)
right, i'm not going to read through all the replies, but here's what i think.
....
the rest is history
My admittedly bad literacy skills aside

I dont think your really getting your point across that Im not clear and intelligent any more successfully than I tried to get my point across that I am.

I know its very boring but it looks like if you want to put across a convincing opinion you will have to actually read what Im saying
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butterfly_girl_5
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#168
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#168
(Original post by |>|Imagine|<|)
To be honest, you reek of academic snobbery from here, and I don't even know you.

Who, other than an academic snob; puts their examination results in their signature?. And, from what you have written, you sound pretty self righteous.

I know someone like that, he communicates from his ********, because hes always up there. Additionally, half the stuff that comes out his mouth is pure ****e anyway.
your first point is fair enough. but if since you ask, I always found it useful to read other peoples academic record. I have it hidden because then people can choose whether or not they want to look at them. If people dont want to know they dont open the tag that says 'academic'. I dont really see how that boy you know who talks out of his arse is really relevant- what point are you trying to make?
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butterfly_girl_5
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#169
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#169
(Original post by princess_sue)
butterfly girl - GET OVER YOURSELF. you sound like a complete *****, coming on here and basically blasting your friends for not wanting to talk about a ****ing BOOK! get a life
Thats not really what I was saying. i said its fine with me if they dont want to talk about a book but I dont understand why they say their interested in talking about books in that way if they're not. I thought maybe the fact that I think this is because I am or am coming across as an academic snob so I was concerned because I want to make sure Im not or If I am then I do something about it- so I come on here to ask peoples opinions.

maybe this is completely irrelavent- but 'princess' sue is telling me I need to get over myself?
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faber niger
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#170
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#170
(Original post by butterfly_girl_5)
I dont care if it was a thesis- I think youre the first person who's actually talked about you experience of the oxbridge culture- thankyou. I'll try to respond since you took the time to write so much

I think the reason people put oxbridge on a pedestal is maybe that the stringent and thorough app. process means its deemed harder to get into and that the students are more carefully selected according to their potential. I think there is some truth in this- but Ive come to think that as far as teaching goes- its just a shame oxbridge is the only place where you get enough attention from your teachers. The academic standard of professors and teachingis definitely very high in all the top unis- its certainly debatetable whether oxbridge is in anyway better in those two areas, as is the standard of the degree (this is just my experience- I dont claim to be any sort of an expert)

I think what makes Oxbridge unique is more that its broken down into smaller units by the collegiate system and that and the tutorial system just means its more personalised and possibly in that way more demanding. The other side is the tradition- that really attracted me to Cambridge (formal dinners included) but some people honestly arent and would willingly choose manchester anyday.

I certainly agree with what I put in bold. I readily admit I wouldnt have had a fighting chance at getting an offer if I hadnt gone to a private 6th form and had the teaching I had. even though I have a privaledged background (financially, emotionally and culturally) and went to a decent state comp. in oxford, and hadthe benefit of living in a place like oxford. As you said, there are a lot of reasons for this.

The term you used- academic apartheid I think absolutely is a problem in this country. Partly because there are two very established and very highly regarded institutions- but I think there is something about the oxbridge culture that comes into it- thats what I really want to get to the bottom of for my own sake.
Thanks for the reply: I agree, naturally, with everything you say.

I definitely think it's a shame that other universities don't have the funding (or intent, I don't know, but probably the former) to put in place a system of tutorials, as at Oxford, as I would have really loved the chance to engage in that. The collegiate system is also relatively unique, as you say. I think that the community-spirit this fosters probably does help to create an academic environment. Other universities -- most notably Durham -- do have colleges, and others try to emulate the system to lesser degrees. I have applied to a 'hall' at Manchester which is trying very much to emulate an Oxbridge college, though it is among 2 that do out of over 30 halls at Manchester, as it has its own societies and JCR and is a small old building. However, it is single-sex, which I'm not overly happy about, but its a sacrifice I'm prepared to make.

I've seen the education system in many incarnations: I started out at a state school, after three years moved to a private school, which after another two years closed due to unpopularity, so I went to another private school until GCSEs, and, finally, I did my A-Levels at a state college. The differences between these were huge and it is absolutely abhorrent to think that one's life chances are affected in such a way. Personally, I'm in favour of the abolition of private education. Some might say that this is just getting rid of excellence, but I believe that excellence can, equally, be fostered on a more level playing field. Of course, similarly, disallowing bribes in sporting events may adversely, financially, affect people who engage in sport -- however, I don't see this as being an acceptable argument for retaining bribery.

I think that stereotypes also play a part in creating the 'Oxbridge culture' you mention: I suppose that students, when accepted at such universities, tend to look to such stereotypes for ways to 'fit in', thereby propagating the stereotypes themselves, even if not deliberately.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#171
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#171
(Original post by adriantrevisan)
---> its clear ur pretty much "happy" to be at oxford/cambridge...remember that the more you try to show off with people...the more they are gonna be mean to you ..Its ok if you are clever and all, but is it useful showing how intellectual you are to "uninterested" people that most probably just want to have a fun chat and all?
..you got to start making differences when taking part in a discussion ...as in "whats the full reason of the discussion itself?"... I love academia myself..but I would never put academia and a real friend on the same scale.

Ad
when did I say I did either of these things?
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butterfly_girl_5
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#172
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#172
(Original post by Bornstubborn)
English literature is a joke subject, the people are not learning any real skills and there is no science behind the subject. Just pretentious educated middle class people talking about what they like about poems.
thats true- there is indeed no science behind this arts subject
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butterfly_girl_5
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#173
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#173
(Original post by |>|Imagine|<|)
It doesn't offend me, and even if it did; that wouldn't mean someone shouldn't do it. I just see no use other than what I outlined before.
so do you think everyone on tsr who puts their results in their signature reeks of snobbery?
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butterfly_girl_5
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#174
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#174
(Original post by |>|Imagine|<|)
You should realise, That "intelligence" (Have you defined that yet? The only definition you seem to have gave it thus far is "me me me") has no direct correlation with success in Academics.

Worse, You seem to hold "intelligence" and "success" in academia as mutually inclusive.

I've met some seemingly extremely intelligent Taxi drivers in the past, believe it or not. Perhaps even, more clued up than you. Academia Indeed.
I didnt use the word intelligence once in that post. I think youre taking it rather out of context anyway. I dont really see how what I said in that post supports what youre saying.

Can you quote a post of mine that is an example of what you just said so I know what you mean?
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llys
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#175
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Arrogance depends on personality, not on what university you go to... however Oxbridge might select for certain personalities.

So who do you find there?
I imagine
1) people who consider it their rightful "heritage" - yep, they'll be arrogant. (I fail to see how anyone who thinks that way cannot be considered arrogant.)
2) normal people whose 'achievement' was inflated by their teachers/parents - some of those might be arrogant, but probably not all are.
3) normal people who constantly have to defend themselves for going there because the people around them are anti-snobbish - of those some might be arrogant as a reaction but most probably will just be cautious/defensive.
4) normal people from a background which doesn't usually send people there - of those most probably won't be arrogant, just cautiously happy/proud.

What a terrible, over-generalising post I just made.

For the record, the people I know - which are a limited number of Cambridge science grad students & postdocs & PIs, none are arrogant, though some are a bit weird but in a good way and anyway, that's just a science thing, really.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#176
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#176
(Original post by aspiringlawyer)
Conclusion:
OP is an intellectual snob who, I suspect, while being 'academic' is probably not that intelligent at all.
Next time, don't rely on TSR for people to massage your already oversized ego.
Well I might be wrong here but I thought the emphasis was on the fact I see myself as interested in academic thought. I didnt think I really implied that necessarily meant Im any good at it. I thought I said that what I thought was an interest was actually a sort of arrogance. This concerned me- I dont want to be an academic snob or arrogant- so I ask people if they think thats the case and how it's to be avoided.

I know this will just be read as further evidence of the fact im an egotistical snob- but I think the fact that I had the intuativeness to work hard or the natural ability to get the grades I did and that I convinced at least two people at cambridge to give me an offer (and lots of very clever and capable people get turned down) and the fact I am at all concerned I might be becoming up myself because of all this is testiment to the fact I am at least a little intelligent. I suppose it depends on your definition of intelligence, but if you say Im completely stupid thats a bit of a belittlement of anyone's achieving good grades and getting offers from good universities. I know that its debatable how far GCSEs are proof of real intellect and how accurate the cambridge application process is but you still have to be midly intelligent.

(Original post by aspiringlawyer)
I feel sorry for your so-called 'friends',not only for having to put up with your constant condesencion, but also for being friends with someone who (not so) secretly thinks they are brain dead cretins.
I dont think you could know enough about me and my friends to say this. I havent said anything that supports the assertion that they have 'to put up with your constant condescension'. I said when I use certain words they clearly arent interested- which is why I barely ever talk about anything overly intellectual with them. And in what way do I '(not so) secretly thinks they are brain dead cretins'? I have already said the friends in question are interesting and cultured and that the whole reason for my posting (under a screen name on a national student forum) is that I believe its more likely my arrogance than their supposed stupidity which is the problem.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#177
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#177
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Some people don't seem to have read your posts properly
yes Ive noticed that...
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butterfly_girl_5
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#178
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#178
(Original post by chad_ch)
i think the problem is that people are seeing you as just another poncy arts student who thinks too highly of herself. just don't worry about what you sound like - when you get to Oxford your classmates will heart literature like you and have the capibility of reading between the lines like you so yeah.

also, I read Emma before I studied it and it is a god-awful book by anyone's standards. the plot line is incredibly convuluted (not to mention boring), the characters caricatures and Emma herself a terrible heroine! did you genuinely care about her at any point in the story?
tbh I cant remember much about Emma- I read it along time ago, and as much as I love Austen, her books rather merge into one another.

for anyone thats interested, what I objected to was that my friend disregards the whole book because its plot wasnt exciting. Id agree that Jane Austen's rather repetetive conventional narrative structure and characters arguably weakens the novels(I dont know them well enough to say), if you dismiss the whole novel according to that criteria you lose out on what she does do well- her use of irony and humour, her satire and her psycological insight are what I love about her writing. But to be fair to my friend I didnt take her up on the matter

My problem with peoples comments is they often make very overblown, sweeping, heated statements about me that seem so in excess of what Ive actually said it makes me think they dont actually read what I say and make any effort to understand where im coming from in order to judge me.

I mean the amount of people who have said ' you are absolutely an intellectual snob. Get over yourself...'
That is why I made this thread...
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butterfly_girl_5
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#179
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#179
(Original post by jismith1989)

it is absolutely abhorrent to think that one's life chances are affected in such a way. Personally, I'm in favour of the abolition of private education. Some might say that this is just getting rid of excellence, but I believe that excellence can, equally, be fostered on a more level playing field. Of course, similarly, disallowing bribes in sporting events may adversely, financially, affect people who engage in sport -- however, I don't see this as being an acceptable argument for retaining bribery.

I think that stereotypes also play a part in creating the 'Oxbridge culture' you mention: I suppose that students, when accepted at such universities, tend to look to such stereotypes for ways to 'fit in', thereby propagating the stereotypes themselves, even if not deliberately.
yes I know. I cant help thinking there wouldnt be such a divide in peoples minds between 'intellectuals' and 'lay folk' if there wasnt a divide in the system.

and I agree- although excellence is more achievable in private schools, my experience is that while they get better grades, stupidityand ignorance exist in other forms. I wouldnt compare it to bribery- but I do think the private school tradition is very out-dated.
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butterfly_girl_5
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#180
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#180
(Original post by llys)
Arrogance depends on personality, not on what university you go to... however Oxbridge might select for certain personalities.

So who do you find there?
I imagine
1) people who consider it their rightful "heritage" - yep, they'll be arrogant. (I fail to see how anyone who thinks that way cannot be considered arrogant.)
2) normal people whose 'achievement' was inflated by their teachers/parents - some of those might be arrogant, but probably not all are.
3) normal people who constantly have to defend themselves for going there because the people around them are anti-snobbish - of those some might be arrogant as a reaction but most probably will just be cautious/defensive.
4) normal people from a background which doesn't usually send people there - of those most probably won't be arrogant, just cautiously happy/proud.

What a terrible, over-generalising post I just made.

For the record, the people I know - which are a limited number of Cambridge science grad students & postdocs & PIs, none are arrogant, though some are a bit weird but in a good way and anyway, that's just a science thing, really.
i didnt think I implied arrogance was a result of which university you go to. I have sadly always been quite an arrogant person, before I ever stood out academically. The only way that my intellectual abilities or my cambridge offer are relevant is that Im more in danger of using them to boost my ego- its harder not to be arrogant when you have reason to be pleased with yourself. So I want to hit it on the head so I dont become more and more of a pretencious ****.
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