Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    Vermaelen will probably leave but either way I would take someone who you know for a fact can do the job rather than pay for another kid who isn't there yet every time
    Replace Vermaelen one season after him being appointed captain? That is a ruthless streak Wenger rarely shows, if he even has it. You cannot apply that logic to building a team. You can't have a team of starters, somewhere in there you need squad players, and 4th choice CB is about as good a place to take a risk as any. Ideally the 4th choice CB will basically never play, so you might as have someone who will be able to step up to the plate in a couple of season rather than another wage guzzler. He's on £25k p/w at present, do you really need a £50k p/w 29 year old CB? It doesn't make sense unless he's starting, and no other top side would be looking at Ashely Williams as a starter IMO.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    Why pay for potential for a player who has no experience in the premier league when you can go and get the finished article though ?
    Because we have the mertesacker-koscielny partnership which is working really well so there's no point of getting Williams who is 28 when we have three defenders around the same age. I wouldnt want him to be a squad player and IMO he shouldnt start as both mertesacker and koscielny are better than him
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    The mertesacker-koscielny partnership is working well but you can't deny we'd have a beastly defence if we could pair Koscielny with a no-nonsense brute of a wall like Vidic or Kompany. Personally, I haven't lost faith in TV5 yet - I think he'll come back stronger next season to win his place back.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Replace Vermaelen one season after him being appointed captain? That is a ruthless streak Wenger rarely shows, if he even has it. You cannot apply that logic to building a team. You can't have a team of starters, somewhere in there you need squad players, and 4th choice CB is about as good a place to take a risk as any. Ideally the 4th choice CB will basically never play, so you might as have someone who will be able to step up to the plate in a couple of season rather than another wage guzzler. He's on £25k p/w at present, do you really need a £50k p/w 29 year old CB? It doesn't make sense unless he's starting, and no other top side would be looking at Ashely Williams as a starter IMO.
    The reason I want him is assuming Vermaelen goes which is heavily touted and its obvious why he might so Williams would be 3rd choice not 4th, the wages thing is just pure speculation about 50k a week so I won't bother with that but what makes you say he can't be a squad player ? Compare him with Lescott, Cahill, Evans, Dawson other top teams squad players and he is roughly of that level I would say. Just because he plays for Swansea and is a bit unglamorous or doesn't fit in with some idea of what a squad should constitute doesn't really concern me we need to be looking at proven premier league players or world class players and he is a proven premier league player so I have absolutely no problem with signing him
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    The reason I want him is assuming Vermaelen goes which is heavily touted and its obvious why he might
    The speculation is from him having one bad season. If that were ground for Wenger shipping player you wouldn't have a squad. Diaby should be evidence of the faith Wenger shows in his players, let alone the guy he made captain. How many of your players would still be at the club if one season was enough to change opinion.

    Williams would be 3rd choice not 4th, the wages thing is just pure speculation about 50k a week so I won't bother with that but what makes you say he can't be a squad player ? Compare him with Lescott, Cahill, Evans, Dawson other top teams squad players and he is roughly of that level I would say. Just because he plays for Swansea and is a bit unglamorous or doesn't fit in with some idea of what a squad should constitute doesn't really concern me we need to be looking at proven premier league players or world class players and he is a proven premier league player so I have absolutely no problem with signing him
    This is based him being 3rd choice which I don't think he would be. £50k a week isn't really aimless speculation its just a guess based on his current wage and the wages you pay your players. I'd say he's close to perhaps Lescott or Dawson. I don't think he is as good as Cahill or Evans, but then none of those have just been signed at 29. Big difference between sticking with what you have and actively trying to bring someone in. I didn't introduce Swansea's class into it at all.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    The speculation is from him having one bad season. If that were ground for Wenger shipping player you wouldn't have a squad. Diaby should be evidence of the faith Wenger shows in his players, let alone the guy he made captain. How many of your players would still be at the club if one season was enough to change opinion.

    This is based him being 3rd choice which I don't think he would be. £50k a week isn't really aimless speculation its just a guess based on his current wage and the wages you pay your players. I'd say he's close to perhaps Lescott or Dawson. I don't think he is as good as Cahill or Evans, but then none of those have just been signed at 29. Big difference between sticking with what you have and actively trying to bring someone in. I didn't introduce Swansea's class into it at all.
    Fair point but the difference is Vermaelen will have options and won't be content to just take his money and sit around. I hope he stays but I don't think he will. If Vermaelen stays I wouldn't be bothered about signing Williams but I still wouldn't say no.

    £50k a week might be reasonable assumption and I don't have much problem with it our wage bill is beyond ****ed so what difference does another player make, rather have Williams on 50 grand than Djourou. Those teams stuck with what they had because they had enough quality, if Vermalen goes we won't so thats what all this is based on

    And finally the Swansea class thing wasn't about you its more about a general attitude I see amongst Arsenal fans of not wanting to buy players from lower premier league clubs and just assuming they aren't up to scratch like when I said a month or two back we should look to buy Benteke and some people said he aint good enough for no apparent reason even though he is and hes gonna improve in the next few years
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    Fair point but the difference is Vermaelen will have options and won't be content to just take his money and sit around. I hope he stays but I don't think he will. If Vermaelen stays I wouldn't be bothered about signing Williams but I still wouldn't say no.
    He's played nearly 30 games this season, he's just fallen out of favour atm, I don't think he's at the point where he's been shut out. He knows next season is a new one, and he still has the armband which means he has the managers faith.

    £50k a week might be reasonable assumption and I don't have much problem with it our wage bill is beyond ****ed so what difference does another player make, rather have Williams on 50 grand than Djourou. Those teams stuck with what they had because they had enough quality, if Vermalen goes we won't so thats what all this is based on
    I would think you would want to correct the wage bill by bringing a young player on <£20k and giving him a few season at the club before he can step up and replace one of the big boys at the end of his deal or leave at the end of the contract. Set up the correct wage structure. Rather than replace so called "deadwood' with what people are going to be calling "deadwood" by next summer.

    And finally the Swansea class thing wasn't about you its more about a general attitude I see amongst Arsenal fans of not wanting to buy players from lower premier league clubs and just assuming they aren't up to scratch like when I said a month or two back we should look to buy Benteke and some people said he aint good enough for no apparent reason even though he is and hes gonna improve in the next few years
    There are exceptions but for the most part, midtable clubs contain midtable player that is why there are midtable. Taking a few diamonds in the rough or poaching odd players is fine, but you don't become a top side by assembling a squad of players from those club who are deep into their careers. Benteke is a bit different as Villa have clearly struck gold with a young player there. Even then, he's a risk to bring in as a main striker. One season doesn't mean he's going to repeat it.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    He's played nearly 30 games this season, he's just fallen out of favour atm, I don't think he's at the point where he's been shut out. He knows next season is a new one, and he still has the armband which means he has the managers faith.

    I would think you would want to correct the wage bill by bringing a young player on <£20k and giving him a few season at the club before he can step up and replace one of the big boys at the end of his deal or leave at the end of the contract. Set up the correct wage structure. Rather than replace so called "deadwood' with what people are going to be calling "deadwood" by next summer.


    There are exceptions but for the most part, midtable clubs contain midtable player that is why there are midtable. Taking a few diamonds in the rough or poaching odd players is fine, but you don't become a top side by assembling a squad of players from those club who are deep into their careers. Benteke is a bit different as Villa have clearly struck gold with a young player there. Even then, he's a risk to bring in as a main striker. One season doesn't mean he's going to repeat it.
    He played nearly 30 games before being unceremoniously dropped in a way that makes him an easy scape goat for our poor defending and he wont like being 3rd choice. its not impossible he will be back in the side next season but the common logic that him and Koscielny can't play together works heavily against him. If Barca or a top team come for Vermalen he will be gone no doubt about it he has had a nightmare year and will probably want a fresh start and if we wanted to correct the wage structure giving Ramsey Gibbs and the Ox 50k a week wasn't the way to go about it so as I have said I don't worry about it because its beyond help but anyway we have gone way off track now
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    He played nearly 30 games before being unceremoniously dropped in a way that makes him an easy scape goat for our poor defending and he wont like being 3rd choice. its not impossible he will be back in the side next season but the common logic that him and Koscielny can't play together works heavily against him. If Barca or a top team come for Vermalen he will be gone no doubt about it he has had a nightmare year and will probably want a fresh start and if we wanted to correct the wage structure giving Ramsey Gibbs and the Ox 50k a week wasn't the way to go about it so as I have said I don't worry about it because its beyond help but anyway we have gone way off track now
    Him and Koscielney can't play together, when did this come about? They played perfectly well together all of last season, in fact the pairing solved the defensive issues you had. I would go as far as saying on form they are your best pairing.

    Barca aren't going to come in for Verm surely, they play a passing style of football with a strong emphasis on ball playing and ball retaining CBs. Verm is good, but he's the wrong type of player. I would say Kos is the most Barca like CB you have. Strong rumours of Hummels to Barca which would make sense, considering he partners Subotic who is in the Vidic, Verm mould.

    I would say Ramsay, Gibbs and Ox were at the point you either needed to give them those kinds of wages or let them go. They are at the point where they are signing a deal for the best part of their careers, 5 year deals even Ox will be 25 by the time the next one comes about. If you are offering deals at 21/22 years olds, they have either made it or they haven't. I mean at United, Cleverly Welbeck Rafael, they have all signed deals on similar money at similar ages.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Him and Koscielney can't play together, when did this come about? They played perfectly well together all of last season, in fact the pairing solved the defensive issues you had. I would go as far as saying on form they are your best pairing.
    Vermaelen and Koscielny both like to push forward and nick the ball off the striker, and neither of them is a real organiser of the defence. A Mertesacker/A.N Other combination is our best CB partnership as it stands, as it was last season.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Him and Koscielney can't play together, when did this come about? They played perfectly well together all of last season, in fact the pairing solved the defensive issues you had. I would go as far as saying on form they are your best pairing.

    Barca aren't going to come in for Verm surely, they play a passing style of football with a strong emphasis on ball playing and ball retaining CBs. Verm is good, but he's the wrong type of player. I would say Kos is the most Barca like CB you have. Strong rumours of Hummels to Barca which would make sense, considering he partners Subotic who is in the Vidic, Verm mould.

    I would say Ramsay, Gibbs and Ox were at the point you either needed to give them those kinds of wages or let them go. They are at the point where they are signing a deal for the best part of their careers, 5 year deals even Ox will be 25 by the time the next one comes about. If you are offering deals at 21/22 years olds, they have either made it or they haven't. I mean at United, Cleverly Welbeck Rafael, they have all signed deals on similar money at similar ages.
    Ask anyone in this thread they will agree it comes from the fact they are both very aggressive and rash and faily error prone (especially Vermaelen) so when they play together they can struggle. Tail end of the season when they played together we shipped 3 to Norwich at home, 2 to Wigan at home, 2 to West Brom away on the last day when we desperately needed to win and lost 2-1 at QPR. Obviously not all their fault but still doesn't exactly point to a solid partnership does it

    Barca might want Hummels but there is talk they are a bit short of cash which is why they would look at Vermaelen as a cheaper solution

    Ox would have played about 25 league games when he signed the extension so no chance he should have 50 grand, Gibbs can't stay fit so it was a gamble and Ramsey hadn't established himself the way he has the last couple of months when he was given 50k to basically be a 4th choice midfielder. Man Utd can reward these youngsters because they are in a better financial position and they are important parts of a title winning side
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Loat)
    Vermaelen and Koscielny both like to push forward and nick the ball off the striker, and neither of them is a real organiser of the defence. A Mertesacker/A.N Other combination is our best CB partnership as it stands, as it was last season.
    I disagree hence why I said, I think they are your best pairing. I think Kos is the best sweeper of the two with the pace he has, and Vermalean is the best aerially and physically when he's on form.

    If Vermanlean was sold that would be pretty impressive mismanagement of the captain's armband from Wenger. 2010, Fab and RVP vice, 2011 RVP Vermalean, 2012 Vemalean Arteta.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)

    Ox would have played about 25 league games when he signed the extension so no chance he should have 50 grand, Gibbs can't stay fit so it was a gamble and Ramsey hadn't established himself the way he has the last couple of months when he was given 50k to basically be a 4th choice midfielder. Man Utd can reward these youngsters because they are in a better financial position and they are important parts of a title winning side
    I don't really see how you can say giving the new deals to those players is wrong. It was an absolutely welcomed thing for the club to do and not wait till the last year of their deals to extend their contract as we have become accustomed to. You seem to be looking at the negative aspect of it which is surprising given how you rightly criticise the mismanagement of Nasri's contract.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    I disagree hence why I said, I think they are your best pairing. I think Kos is the best sweeper of the two with the pace he has, and Vermalean is the best aerially and physically when he's on form.

    If Vermanlean was sold that would be pretty impressive mismanagement of the captain's armband from Wenger. 2010, Fab and RVP vice, 2011 RVP Vermalean, 2012 Vemalean Arteta.
    No offence, but you haven't watched Arsenal enough over the last two seasons if you think Vermaelen - Koscielny is our best defensive partnership. It is clear as rain that the partnership of Mertesacker - Koscielny is far superior, better organised and complement each other really well. Mertesacker organises and reads the game whilst Koscielny sweeps, does last man tackles and generally is a boss.

    The Vermaelen - Koscielny partnership was still pretty poor as we were the first team in the history of the PL to win 4 games after going a goal down in succession. That partnership was very leaky imo especially at the end of the season (QPR away, Norwich home).

    It is really odd how underrated Mertesacker is by non Arsenal fans. People just generally come up with the "he's too slow" or "he's not mobile" to discredit him but when you actually watch him, he's a very good defender.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    I disagree hence why I said, I think they are your best pairing. I think Kos is the best sweeper of the two with the pace he has, and Vermalean is the best aerially and physically when he's on form.
    They have the attributes but they havent got the leadership skills whereas mertesacker has. Plus despite these attributes mertesacker suits them better with his reading of the game
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by alexsong)
    Ask anyone in this thread they will agree it comes from the fact they are both very aggressive and rash and faily error prone (especially Vermaelen) so when they play together they can struggle. Tail end of the season when they played together we shipped 3 to Norwich at home, 2 to Wigan at home, 2 to West Brom away on the last day when we desperately needed to win and lost 2-1 at QPR. Obviously not all their fault but still doesn't exactly point to a solid partnership does it
    The opinion of this thread changes like the wind as is often noted. Back in 2010 Kos was **** and should have been shifted like Squid, Verm was god back then. Then Mert was poor, was too slow and didn't deal with threats, now he's the flavour of the season. My opinion has been constant since back when Kos was partnering Squid. I haven't seen anything to change that bar fluctuations in form. I think Mert is decent but I don't think he's as good as Vermaelen on form.

    Barca might want Hummels but there is talk they are a bit short of cash which is why they would look at Vermaelen as a cheaper solution
    Perhaps they are short on cash, but as I said, Vermaelen instead is like saying I couldn't afford Aguero so bought Dzeko. Its a different player, only a few lines about you were saying he was "very aggressive and rash and faily error prone".

    Ox would have played about 25 league games when he signed the extension so no chance he should have 50 grand, Gibbs can't stay fit so it was a gamble and Ramsey hadn't established himself the way he has the last couple of months when he was given 50k to basically be a 4th choice midfielder. Man Utd can reward these youngsters because they are in a better financial position and they are important parts of a title winning side
    The exact same could be said, Welbeck had played one season of 30 games, Cleverly had played 10, and this is the first season Rafael hasn't been massively injured. United wage structure, is little different to Arsenal's. United spend about 30m a season more than Arsenal on wages, of which RVP and Rooney account for £20m. The biggest difference comes at top end.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    It is really odd how underrated Mertesacker is by non Arsenal fans. People just generally come up with the "he's too slow" or "he's not mobile" to discredit him but when you actually watch him, he's a very good defender.
    tbh its not just non arsenal fans

    Yeah I'm talking about you Yaboy

    (Original post by yaboy)
    Ive seen enough of metersacker to realise he has pretty poor positioning and the slowest reaction time of any centerback ive ever seen. I think he is a real weak link in the defence, his only strength are that hes tall.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 419)
    I don't really see how you can say giving the new deals to those players is wrong. It was an absolutely welcomed thing for the club to do and not wait till the last year of their deals to extend their contract as we have become accustomed to. You seem to be looking at the negative aspect of it which is surprising given how you rightly criticise the mismanagement of Nasri's contract.
    We had just looked like cutting the wage bill down and Wenger went ahead and doled it straight out to players who it was highly questionable whether or not they really deserved it, it felt like the whole thing with the 'british core' and the song and dance about extending these lot felt like it was a side show to distract from the fact we couldn't get Walcott to extend and it was a feel good story to see them sign but the numbers weren't great

    Ramsey was right to re sign but I think he was definitely overpaid at the time and still is overpaid now, Gibbs was right to re sign as I say he is injury prone but that is nit picking I will admit it was right to extend him but again 60k was a lot and Ox had 3 yrs left so why there was a hurry to bump him up to 50k or what the rationale behind it was I will never know.

    I suppose with the way revenues both football wide and at arsenal are going its not really a big deal to pay out these wages to good squad players though to be fair

    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    The opinion of this thread changes like the wind as is often noted. Back in 2010 Kos was **** and should have been shifted like Squid, Verm was god back then. Then Mert was poor, was too slow and didn't deal with threats, now he's the flavour of the season. My opinion has been constant since back when Kos was partnering Squid. I haven't seen anything to change that bar fluctuations in form. I think Mert is decent but I don't think he's as good as Vermaelen on form.

    Perhaps they are short on cash, but as I said, Vermaelen instead is like saying I couldn't afford Aguero so bought Dzeko. Its a different player, only a few lines about you were saying he was "very aggressive and rash and faily error prone".

    The exact same could be said, Welbeck had played one season of 30 games, Cleverly had played 10, and this is the first season Rafael hasn't been massively injured. United wage structure, is little different to Arsenal's. United spend about 30m a season more than Arsenal on wages, of which RVP and Rooney account for £20m. The biggest difference comes at top end.
    So the fact Vermaelen is rash and aggressive means he can't get the ball on the deck and play it how Barca like ? Because he can and he has more technical ability than Puyol (also rash and aggressive) who they are effectively looking to replace this summer. Welbeck and Cleverly had a few games at United but had at least player at the premier league level before Arsenal Ox was in League 1
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    No offence, but you haven't watched Arsenal enough over the last two seasons if you think Vermaelen - Koscielny is our best defensive partnership.
    That is such a cheap line that comes on out on TSR, anyone criticises my opinion my team you can't watch them enough. We are all football fans, I watch Arsenal on a weekly basis, just like almost everyone else does on the top PL sides.

    It is clear as rain that the partnership of Mertesacker - Koscielny is far superior, better organised and complement each other really well. Mertesacker organises and reads the game whilst Koscielny sweeps, does last man tackles and generally is a boss
    Well I simply disagree with it. I do think they complement each other better I just Verm is better as I've said, he's just playing poorly this season.

    The Vermaelen - Koscielny partnership was still pretty poor as we were the first team in the history of the PL to win 4 games after going a goal down in succession. That partnership was very leaky imo especially at the end of the season (QPR away, Norwich home).
    Just a point from from when Mert got inured last season had conceded 35 goals in the further 12 games you conceded 14 goals. Just over a goal a game, which is pretty much the standard form of a top side similar to all the sides this season. It wasn't that poor to be bringing up records broken. Its pretty much your form as you have made your way past Spurs of late.

    It is really odd how underrated Mertesacker is by non Arsenal fans. People just generally come up with the "he's too slow" or "he's not mobile" to discredit him but when you actually watch him, he's a very good defender.
    It funny because I would say, it was the Arsenal fans in this thread who were tearing him apart for just that Xmas last year. As I just said, I do rate him just not as highly.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    I disagree hence why I said, I think they are your best pairing. I think Kos is the best sweeper of the two with the pace he has, and Vermalean is the best aerially and physically when he's on form.

    If Vermanlean was sold that would be pretty impressive mismanagement of the captain's armband from Wenger. 2010, Fab and RVP vice, 2011 RVP Vermalean, 2012 Vemalean Arteta.
    You're right on the attributes of Kos and Verm, and they should be our best partnership based on their individual qualities. But they both play better as the left sided CB, and commit too many errors to be our best pairing in reality.

    Perhaps it could be argued that the reason they don't gel well is poor defensive coaching.
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

This forum is supported by:
Updated: August 26, 2013
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.