Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Agapelove)
    Granted. However, some (though not all) of American's founders were Christians. I do think that Jesus' teachings are one of the reasons for the enlightenment, after people began to be able to read the Bible in their native language for themselves.
    I don't know about Christianity in general, but the Catholic church was always opposed to the enlightenment, not least in the 20th century when they sided with the fascist movement. Maybe Protestantism was a natural path towards the enlightenment given the society in which it arose, but the enlightenment was still a rejection, more than anything else, of the church, or at least the influence of the church on society.

    The pacifist ideas are not what got Jesus executed. What got him in trouble with the Jewish leaders was his claim to be the son of God, which they considered to be blasphemy against Judaism.
    Yes, I was wrong about that, although I'm still doubtful that people didn't exist before him who had similar ideas. The golden rule has existed for millennia, for example. And with the advent of Jesus, nothing really changed in the world with regards to tyranny, slavery and other things like that (Christianity shamefully supported slavery for centuries). The real movement towards human freedom came much later than Christianity or Jesus, during the 18th to 19th centuries. And it came from the people within Christian society who believed the least, or even not at all, in Christianity. It came from the apostates and freethinkers and sceptics of the day.

    Jesus Christ taught the golden rule, to do to others as you would have them do to you (Luke 6:31). Slavery is not doing to others as you would have them do to you. For example, I do not want to be enslaved. Hence, I will not enslave anybody else. Sadly, many people who identified/identify themselves as Christians do not obey Jesus' commands, including the Golden Rule. Jesus said that if you love him, you will obey him. Not everyone who calls himself or herself a Christian obeys Jesus. I am guilty of not obeying Jesus sometimes as well. I repent and ask God to change me. Transformation to be more like Jesus is a process, a life journey.
    The way I see it is that Christianity and other religions are defined by not only their message, but the actions of their followers in its name. Though I agree with some of Jesus' message, Christianity has done little to improve humanity, and a lot to make it worse. I think it's great to take the good bits from Christianity (or at least recognise that it has some good things to teach), but the religion as a whole was tainted from the beginning in my opinion, since it never really disowned (but rather celebrated) the genocidal god of the old testament. (And some of the ideas in the new testament are quite sinister, such as the idea of hell, or having somebody die for your sins, or being born with original sin.)

    By the way, one thing I want to make clear is that the oppressive Christianity is (almost) a thing of the past. The only places where Christianity is still a threat to freedom are almost exclusively in central / sub-Saharan Africa. Christians, as a people, are victims today more than anything else.

    I had to bolden some of your quote above cause it impacted me. Very eloquently stated! And, how he destroyed the bad ideas is through love and nonviolence. It would be awesome if Jews in Israel, the people of Palestine, and the Arabs in Israel, would learn from Martin Luther King Jr. concerning how to destroy the bad ideas which drive them to kill each other.
    If only!

    If Israel did not have the Iron Dome and the rockets Hamas sends into Israel hit and killed humans, would Israel be oppressed? Is the Iron Dome what is keeping Israel from being oppressed?
    Oh, of course. If the military hardware wasn't weighted so far in favour of Israel, Israelis would be facing genocide right now. (Actually, they wouldn't - they would have already faced genocide many years ago.) Ironically, it is because Israel is such a comparatively free and prosperous society that it manages to appear to be the oppressor, which is the exact same reason we should (in general) support it!

    Agreed, though I do think the Israelis need to stop attacking the people in Gaza,including Hamas. I understand that many of my Jewish friends think that would be akin to suicide,but I do think they should trust in G-d more and in attacking less. I think Israel attacking the people in Gaza is hurting Israel as well as Gaza.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I appreciate the points you've raised.
    See I disagree with that very much. It is Hamas who need to stop attacking Israel, and once that happens, the blockade will end and Palestinians will be much better off. I wish you were right though.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    The IDF and ISIS has many things in common but what strikes me is their online missions. They both spend a lot for their online propaganda. Makes me suspicious. :holmes:

    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fact)
    LOL they withdrew from Gaza? How nice of them!!!!!!11

    What do you mean there is no occupation? Do you seriously believe Palestine = Gaza alone?
    It's pretty self-explanatory, so I'm puzzled by your question. There is no occupation because there is no occupation. Israel withdrew all military and civilians from Gaza a decade ago.

    (Original post by Fact)
    You are completely right, before the kidnapping of 3 Israeli children there was relative peace because the lives of kidnapped Palestinian children on a daily basis wasn't important enough to blast on news stations across the world. So yes, if we ignore the harassment and arbitrary kidnap and detention of Palestinian children prior to to the kidnap of the 3 Israeli children whose lives are so precious then Hamas did start the conflict.
    That's because you're exaggerating on an epic scale. All Israeli actions against Palestine have been designed to deal with Hamas. The idea that they randomnly and arbitrarily just mess with innocent Palestinian civilians for the funsies is nonsense on your part.

    (Original post by Fact)
    You seriously can't be that stupid.
    The words 'pot' and 'kettle' come to mind.

    (Original post by Fact)
    Strawman? I'm happy you view the imprisonment of 200 Palestinian children as the "harsh reality of actual war".
    You brought up the implications of harsh realities, not me. It is a strawman because this has bugger all to do with the actual topic of the thread.

    (Original post by Fact)
    At least you consider it harsh despite your lack of argument there and despite there not being a war there. It's an ethnic cleansing. A genocide. An apartheid.
    What complete and utter garbage. You're probably the sort of person who calls the police 'gestapo' and accuse the UK of turning into North Korea any time the Police make an arrest.
    The Israeli's dropped leaflets telling civilians to evacuate their areas. Hamas told them to stay put, because they needed them as human shields and so that they could milk their inevitable deaths to the global media as part of the their anti-Israeli propoganda machine. That's the harsh reality of what's going on.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    If Germany was a small county in England where members of an ethnic minority had been herded, prevented from leaving and had a big wall built around them, your analogy might be useful.

    What precisely is wrong with the left wing abandoning Israel when it became a regional power? The left wing stands up for the underdog against the hegemon. Any powerful entity will act as oppressively as it can get away with, no matter what its political, cultural or historical virtues. The left is proud to oppose that, as all hegemony must be opposed to maintain overall equilibrium and head off monopolisation on power.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tsr1269)
    As expected, you cannot distinguish between a military conquest and a conquest via mass immigration.
    no, i can distinguish between a recognised term and one you just tried to make up

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    As I have clearly stated to you:

    Naziism =/= Germany. )...
    this statement not really relevant here anymore

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You seem to think Islamism and Muslim are two different entities when one simply complements the other. (This is a discussion for the religion sub forum and any posts which do not touch upon the topic thread at hand will be dealt with accordingly)...
    one doesnt complement the other, im afraid one controls the other. the topic crosses over into this conflict because it is islamists that are engineering this current war. The same is reflected by islamists influence n various other conflict zones - such as nigeria, CAR, kashmir, chechnya etc its a long list.They use islamic doctrine to stir up and brainwash muslims, and they use muslims as their human sacrifices, be it in recruiting footsoldiers, or even simply using palestinians as human shields as they provoke the IDF from within their neighbourhoods.

    they are also waging the war of propaganda, which gets through to all but the smartest muslims, and you demonstrate you dont even realise how islamists are manipulating you is tribute their effectivness.


    the conflcit started with hamas rockets, but has no progress to the use of tunnels into israel to send hamas terrorists into israeli cities, which is why israel have upped intensity of airstikes to try and collpase these tunnels.

    ironicially illustrative was yesterday when israels PM showed Ban Ki Moon that concrete and building supplies they had sent into palestine to build schools and hospitals had instead been used to build these tunnels for islamist use. Another example of islamsits exploiting average muslims

    The solution to this conflcit is simple, muslims simply need to mob together ( as they do so readily when a child names his toy bear mohammed, or some draws a cartoon) and instead use that rage constructively to find and behead each and every islamist in palestine. then these airstrikes would end, saving many lives.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Because 'terrorist' is a stupid buzzword that means practically whatever you want it to mean.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Independent observers (including the Egyptians) admit that Hamas broke the ceasefire first, they have themselves and only themselves to blame
    You are joking arnt you. Are you familiar with the term collective punishment? Egypt are no longer an independent observer, they claim a vast proportion of their military hardware from Israeli and US sources. Hamas are doing all they can to protect their people from Israeli aggresion. Even the UN are declaring Israel in breach of pretty much every human rights clause in the charter. Israel was formed through Jewish terrorism. Would you have declared the ANC in Apartheid South Africa a terror group? They are fighting back against Israeli racist oppression. People like you are the reason that this problem has not been solved. Zionist aggression both military and through the use of settlers in places like the west bank force hamas to these actions. Israel is a pariah state.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    If Germany was a small county in England where members of an ethnic minority had been herded, prevented from leaving and had a big wall built around them, your analogy might be useful.

    What precisely is wrong with the left wing abandoning Israel when it became a regional power? The left wing stands up for the underdog against the hegemon. Any powerful entity will act as oppressively as it can get away with, no matter what its political, cultural or historical virtues. The left is proud to oppose that, as all hegemony must be opposed to maintain overall equilibrium and head off monopolisation on power.
    what if the 'underdogs' are terrorists? after all the IRA where as youd describe 'underdogs' were they not- i dont beleive the uks socialist goverments in the 70s supported ira did they?

    and i wouldnt regard israel to be the 'all powerful entity' in that region, their enemies are the collective islamic world, some 1 and half billion people, stirred up by fanatics, with billions of oil money behind them .

    israel is punching well above its weight if you ask me, purely because of their superior intellect and capabilities perhaps. you probably dont realise various arab countries previously ganged to wipe israel off the map militarily and were humilated 3 times
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    According to a 'secret' US State Department cable, based on conversations between US diplomats and senior Israeli officials, revealed by Wikileaks in 2011: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed ... on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." Also, official Israeli documents, released to the Gisha human rights organisation under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that "the Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010" and then refused to allow in enough trucks of food to meet those "daily calorie needs".

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40926651/n.../#.U848JI1dX21
    http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index...sumption-red-l
    the problem with Wikileaks, is that its a forum for conspiracy theorists and nutjobs largely. so no-one can be sure what they release is genuinely leaked US wires or made up rubbish. they have earned that privieldge by getting hands on some genuine info, doesnt mean all their releases will be genuine.

    i doubt israel makes too much secret of its blockage - it removed military occupation of gaza 9 years ago, and what has happened their since? islamists in control, launching rockets and drawing IDF strikes onto civliian homes, and building terrorist tunnel network.
    this essentially makes the argument for military occupation then doesnt it
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by #That'sNotMe)
    The dictionary definition of terror is "the use of extreme fear to intimidate people". The definition of a terrorist is using "violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Israel comfortably satisfies this criteria get nobody ever called them terrorists. Why?


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I'm Muslim but according to me Israel are not terrorists.

    Hamas launches rockets from within urban territory into Israel. Just as any other sovereign nation would do, Israel shoots back in order to defend it`s population. Then Hamas go around spreading their propaganda as if they did not use Palestinians as human shields. Hamas is a terrorist group bound on Jihad and destruction, just like all the other Islamic groups out there. Israel has and will be at the front of fighting Islamism, the Palestinians chose Jihad over negotiations. It has always been an illusion that they are a partner for peace, they are intent on terror and trying to destroy Israel.


    Israel states that everything Hamas affiliated is a legitimate target i guess that includes their electorate including women, children and elderly people. 
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    what if the 'underdogs' are terrorists? after all the IRA where as youd describe 'underdogs' were they not- i dont beleive the uks socialist goverments in the 70s supported ira did they?

    and i wouldnt regard israel to be the 'all powerful entity' in that region, their enemies are the collective islamic world, some 1 and half billion people, stirred up by fanatics, with billions of oil money behind them .

    israel is punching well above its weight if you ask me, purely because of their superior intellect and capabilities perhaps. you probably dont realise various arab countries previously ganged to wipe israel off the map militarily and were humilated 3 times
    We may say Hamas are terrorists, but the people of Gaza certainly aren't are they? Neither were the people of Northern Ireland. And that's why Bloody Sunday, a single event where just 26 civilians were murdered, is something people still get riled up over 40 years later. Israel is pulling that sort of **** all the time. (Doubtless Hamas too, for balance.)

    In any case, I never said the British government was unimpeachable with respect to Northern Ireland, and you would be hard pressed to find a lefty who would - though I'd wager you'd find many righties who would.

    Incidentally, the Labour governments of the 1970s were not particularly socialist. The electoral upheavals of 1974 and the subsequent weakness of the government, combined with high interest rates and proto-Reaganomics, meant that that government was pretty monetarist and was essentially a taster of what Thatcher would have in store later. I would actually argue that we have never had a socialist Labour government in this country other than Attlee and at a push the first Wilson.

    Israel is the all-powerful entity in the Middle East because they have US backing, a strong economy and above all a large nuclear deterrent. Even without all that, they would certainly still be the most powerful entity west of the Jordan and would still be dominant over such a tiny and impoverished area as the Gaza Strip. The fact is that Middle Eastern countries don't really have proper solidarity with Gaza insofar as they are prepared to declare war on Israel themselves, and if you bring up Iranian nuclear weapons, even with the political will I imagine they'd be pretty **** with ex-Soviet delivery systems and few warheads.

    "Superior intellect and capabilities" is what happens when you have an affluent society. It has little if anything to do with religion or culture. Israel has a strong economy by virtue of huge US investment and its status as a local powerhouse.

    Your last point is retarded: the crux of my post was to agree that Israel was weak before 1967 but now it was strong any reasonable person should see that it is the oppressor. It also invalidates your implicit claim that Israel is strong because of ethnic/religion-based superior intellect.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no, i can distinguish between a recognised term and one you just tried to make up
    So you know the difference between "mass immigration" and military conquest? Please explain to us the difference...

    this statement not really relevant here anymore
    I'm glad you have seen the errors of your statements.

    one doesnt complement the other, im afraid one controls the other. the topic crosses over into this conflict because it is islamists that are engineering this current war. The same is reflected by islamists influence n various other conflict zones - such as nigeria, CAR, kashmir, chechnya etc its a long list.They use islamic doctrine to stir up and brainwash muslims, and they use muslims as their human sacrifices, be it in recruiting footsoldiers, or even simply using palestinians as human shields as they provoke the IDF from within their neighbourhoods.
    It takes two to tango. One hand cannot clap on it's own.

    they are also waging the war of propaganda, which gets through to all but the smartest muslims, and you demonstrate you dont even realise how islamists are manipulating you is tribute their effectivness.
    But it's not just Muslims standing up for Palestine. It's Chile, Bolivia, Ecuador, Denmark, France and any number of countries which have condemned the "Israeli aggression" and their appalling human rights infringements against the Palestinians.

    the conflcit started with hamas rockets, but has no progress to the use of tunnels into israel to send hamas terrorists into israeli cities, which is why israel have upped intensity of airstikes to try and collpase these tunnels.
    a) Could you show me evidence that HAMAS fired a rocket which started off this current round of fighting?

    b) If Israel can bomb tunnels from airstrikes, why do they need to go for a ground invasion?

    ironicially illustrative was yesterday when israels PM showed Ban Ki Moon that concrete and building supplies they had sent into palestine to build schools and hospitals had instead been used to build these tunnels for islamist use. Another example of islamsits exploiting average muslims
    Evidence?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i doubt israel makes too much secret of its blockage - it removed military occupation of gaza 9 years ago, and what has happened their since? islamists in control, launching rockets and drawing IDF strikes onto civliian homes, and building terrorist tunnel network.
    this essentially makes the argument for military occupation then doesnt it
    Israel occupies a 1km buffer zone inside of Gaza. That is Gazan land therefore, your statement that Israel "removed military occupation of Gaza 9 years ago" is demonstrably false.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    UN Human Rights Council have just voted:

    Aye - 29
    Nay - 1
    Abstentions - 17

    Countries voting:

    United States voted No.
    EU countries abstained.
    UK also abstained
    India voted YES.



    EDIT: Credit goes to Jammy Duel for posting a draft of the UN Resolution which was just voted on.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    And, for reference of the above, this is S-21/L.1
    Interesting to see that America is the only one to vote against
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Three more Israeli soldiers have died. Death toll now up to 32 excluding 1 (Aaron Shaul).

    Israel claims to have killed 200+ HAMAS personnel but does not want to release names.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I understand why those who have lost families in this conflict would be angry at Israel, I would be too, but part of the blame should also lie on Hamas for not doing all they can to stop the conflict. You can blame the 'aggressor' but you also have to blame your government too because if they had simply accepted the ceasefire, the fighting would stop.

    You can't keep villifying someone for doing something you could have stopped. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, they don't care about Israeli civilians, they don't care about anyone or anything that doesn't lead to the destruction of Israel. Israel will never be destroyed, Israel is far more powerful than Hamas and has the added advantage of being a liberal democracy (so support from the rest of the world over Hamas which is largely seen as a terrorist organisation).

    Hamas is fighting for a hopeless cause, and doesn't care how many die during the process, whether Palestinian or Israeli. Palestinian deaths help with their propaganda and Israeli deaths 'help' with the destruction of Israel. If Hamas was truly concerned for the plight of the Palestinians, this conflict would have already ended, and there would be far less casualties.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    We may say Hamas are terrorists, but the people of Gaza certainly aren't are they? Neither were the people of Northern Ireland. And that's why Bloody Sunday, a single event where just 26 civilians were murdered, is something people still get riled up over 40 years later. Israel is pulling that sort of **** all the time. (Doubtless Hamas too, for balance.)

    In any case, I never said the British government was unimpeachable with respect to Northern Ireland, and you would be hard pressed to find a lefty who would - though I'd wager you'd find many righties who would.

    Incidentally, the Labour governments of the 1970s were not particularly socialist. The electoral upheavals of 1974 and the subsequent weakness of the government, combined with high interest rates and proto-Reaganomics, meant that that government was pretty monetarist and was essentially a taster of what Thatcher would have in store later. I would actually argue that we have never had a socialist Labour government in this country other than Attlee and at a push the first Wilson.

    Israel is the all-powerful entity in the Middle East because they have US backing, a strong economy and above all a large nuclear deterrent. Even without all that, they would certainly still be the most powerful entity west of the Jordan and would still be dominant over such a tiny and impoverished area as the Gaza Strip. The fact is that Middle Eastern countries don't really have proper solidarity with Gaza insofar as they are prepared to declare war on Israel themselves, and if you bring up Iranian nuclear weapons, even with the political will I imagine they'd be pretty **** with ex-Soviet delivery systems and few warheads.

    "Superior intellect and capabilities" is what happens when you have an affluent society. It has little if anything to do with religion or culture. Israel has a strong economy by virtue of huge US investment and its status as a local powerhouse.

    Your last point is retarded: the crux of my post was to agree that Israel was weak before 1967 but now it was strong any reasonable person should see that it is the oppressor. It also invalidates your implicit claim that Israel is strong because of ethnic/religion-based superior intellect.
    no thats not what i had said, i said israel was punching well above its weight, as a tiny country with natural resources and population incomparable to its enemies- it would be deemed the 'underdog' It has survived in the middle east purley based on ingenuity. It has become a major military power -but why you may ask? purley because of the fact it was surrounded by hostiles since the 1960s, it had to become a military power purely to survive. apart form winning 3 outnumbered wars, it has been also the target for every jihadi nutcase on the planet
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Israel occupies a 1km buffer zone inside of Gaza. That is Gazan land therefore, your statement that Israel "removed military occupation of Gaza 9 years ago" is demonstrably false.
    a buffer zone is exactly that. it removed its significant sitting army that it had there some time ago. though that decision may have to be reversed given hamas' actions over the last few weeks.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    FAA extends ban to Tel Aviv.

    Bibi really does not look happy.

 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: January 8, 2017
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.