Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#1841
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#1841
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Could you at least ask your hero Lib to categorically agree with your above statement.

I cannot put it any more clearly than I had and will have to leave it to readers of these posts to decide if "stuck at 30% for the last thirty years" is an accurate description of the facts.

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Images/Scotland/KeyTrends/Scotland_SPOMKT_IndyTrend_Feb13_ lrg.jpg
I really can't make it any more straight forward than this. It fluctuates but hovers at 30%
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DorianGrayism
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#1842
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#1842
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I was specifically talking about the National Debt per capita.

The National Debt of the UK is more than 1 TRILLION POUNDS. Taking 1 Trillion and a population of 60 million, that is approximately GBP 17,000 [EUR 20,000] PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

What is the equivalent figure of the Irish National Debt PER HEAD OF POPULATION of Ireland?.
Ireland : 45000 euros
UK: 28000 Euros.

http://www.eudebtclock.org/


(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Regarding Germany and France, you are confusing GDP with national debt.

Comparison of DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION is not affected by the size of the economy.
No, France and Germany both have higher national debts than the UK. France has a slightly higher DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION. Germany has a slightly lower DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

I really don't know where you are getting your information from.

It is affected by the size of the economy. Larger economies can borrow more. Especially those that can print their money. That is why Japan has a huge DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.
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MatureStudent36
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#1843
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#1843
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Ireland : 45000 euros
UK: 28000 Euros.

http://www.eudebtclock.org/




No, France and Germany both have higher national debts than the UK. France has a slightly higher DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION. Germany has a slightly lower DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

I really don't know where you are getting your information from.

It is affected by the size of the economy. Larger economies can borrow more. Especially those that can print their money. That is why Japan has a huge DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.

I like the debt clock app.

maths tutor might like to see this one as well. It's the cost of borrowing. The lower the yield the cheaper it is to borrow money.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/coun...nment-bond-10y
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Maths Tutor
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#1844
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#1844
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
[3 weeks ago]

Article dated Wednesday 5 December 2012.

"Scotland's allocation under the so-called Barnett formula will receive an increase of £331m over two years"

WILL RECEIVE OVER TWO YEARS.

How much of the money has been received already and when was it received?
(Original post by Midlander)
[2 weeks ago]

I was in fact referring to money allocated prior to this.
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
[Today]

You have evaded the point and tried to distort.

I also note your deafening silence on your repeated attacks on the SNP government for not spending funds it had not even received.
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Midlander has already answered that for you.

are you hoping that people will just read the last page and hope that they'll take whats on your post is truthful.
I am not, but YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE.

Show me where Midlander has specified which funds he was referring to: "I was in fact referring to money allocated prior to this", when they were received, when they were spent or whether they remain unspent.

I have exposed enough of your lies and distortions yet you keep on repeating them, so no point in replying to you any more. Just like the lies and scaremongering of the 'Bitter Together' anti-Independence Axis. Apparently it was a Nazi who said that if you repeat lies often enough and loudly enough, people will start believing them. Thanks to the internet, that is no longer the case.

Once more I have to repeat:

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
That is the DELIBERATE TACTIC of the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36 and Midlander.

They resort to BLATANT LIES and DISTORTION to REPEAT their DEBUNKED comments NUMEROUS TIMES.
Despite repeatedly claiming that the pro-Independence vote has been "STUCK" at 30% for the last 30 years, you are so terrified of a YES vote on 18th September 2014 that you spend every spare second of your time on propagating lies and distortions on this blog.

It defies all logic for someone CONVINCED that the pro-independence vote 'has been stuck at 30% for 30 years and not going up' to waste so much time on this blog.

If I was convinced that the No vote had been stuck at 30% for the last 30 years and was not going up, I wouldn't spend much time arguing with the 'losing' side.

Could you perhaps admit that you are TERRIFIED that the pro-independence vote COULD INDEED go up from the 'stuck for 30 years' 30% to 50%+1 in the one and a half years to 18th September 2014?

You have already implied your FEAR by claiming that "nobody wants this --- referendum" despite the fact that 47% of voters voted for the SNP knowing perfectly well that if the SNP won there would be a referendum on independence. For your information, 53% IS NOT EQUAL TO 'Nobody'
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Maths Tutor
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#1845
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#1845
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I really can't make it any more straight forward than this. It fluctuates but hovers at 30%
It fluctuates but hovers at 30% = STUCK at 30% ???

Going up to 40% and down to 20% = STUCK at 30% ???

Waiting for your hero Lib to agree with you.
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MatureStudent36
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#1846
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#1846
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I am not, but YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE.

Show me where Midlander has specified which funds he was referring to: "I was in fact referring to money allocated prior to this", when they were received, when they were spent or whether they remain unspent.

I have exposed enough of your lies and distortions yet you keep on repeating them, so no point in replying to you any more. Just like the lies and scaremongering of the 'Bitter Together' anti-Independence Axis. Apparently it was a Nazi who said that if you repeat lies often enough and loudly enough, people will start believing them. Thanks to the internet, that is no longer the case.

Once more I have to repeat:



Despite repeatedly claiming that the pro-Independence vote has been "STUCK" at 30% for the last 30 years, you are so terrified of a YES vote on 18th September 2014 that you spend every spare second of your time on propagating lies and distortions on this blog.

It defies all logic for someone CONVINCED that the pro-independence vote 'has been stuck at 30% for 30 years and not going up' to waste so much time on this blog.

If I was convinced that the No vote had been stuck at 30% for the last 30 years and was not going up, I wouldn't spend much time arguing with the 'losing' side.

Could you perhaps admit that you are TERRIFIED that the pro-independence vote COULD INDEED go up from the 'stuck for 30 years' 30% to 50%+1 in the one and a half years to 18th September 2014?

You have already implied your FEAR by claiming that "nobody wants this --- referendum" despite the fact that 47% of voters voted for the SNP knowing perfectly well that if the SNP won there would be a referendum on independence. For your information, 53% IS NOT EQUAL TO 'Nobody'

my my. You are shouty tonight. So just to double check. 50ish % of the electorate voted for the SNP knowing this would happen, yet support for separation is back down to 30%. Why did so many people vote for the SNP and not back separation?

i spend time on here because nationalism in any form scares me. So far I've heard terminology used that doesn't support your narrow outlook on the world as. Anti scottish, quisling, traitor, rogue, scaremongerer et al.

if you want to talk about deception lets talk about.
our entry into Europe.
our fudged NHS Scotland waiting times.
The assumption about the economy and currency.
not being in NATO and the U turn.
the assumption that everything will carry in as normal.
my vote apparently doesn't count in Westminster.

I've so far been promised tax cuts, increased government spending and even free television over the past few months.

believe it or not, many if us can identify as being Scottish and British, just as others can also identify with being female, black, gay, Jew etc. as well as being scottish/ British.

Nobody wants this referendum as polling results since 1979 have never shown majority support once. The only way that the SNP can achieve this is by trying to stir up more resentment through the use of its cyber trolls and anything that needs to highlight divisions on perceived cultural differences will only end up with idiots on both side of the border winding each other up.
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L i b
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#1847
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#1847
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
UK subsidises Scotland = UK would be better off without Scotland.

Why don't you reply to the point made by rmpr97: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives."

Again I have to repeat:
You're the one using the language of subsidy, not me. For my part, I believe that Scotland is a net contributer some years and a net receipient other years. This is quite clearly a normal part of being a normal country.

But yes, you've clearly ignored the substantive points of my post because they don't suit your simplistic analysis. Oh, and by the by, the same points I made about writing in caps lock apply to superfluous bolding of text.

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I HAVE NEVER MADE ANY SUCH ANALYSIS OR COMMENT.

Once more I have to repeat:
Yes you have. You did it clearly in the post I quoted. You suggested that the benefit or detriment of Scotland remaining in the UK could be measured in strictly financial terms.

If you're going to behave this way, I'm not even sure what you hope to gain from this discussion. You're being rude and abusive without any cause for it.

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Could you at least ask your hero Lib to categorically agree with your above statement.
I'm not some sort of research body here to add verification to either your arguments or other people's. I'm here to make my own arguments. For my part, I find polling extraordinarily uninteresting beyond very broad general trends. What I will say if that I find it extremely difficult to imagine the Nationalists could conceivably turn around a poll lead of that nature on an issue which people already have largely entrenched opinions about, particularly given the effort they have made to win hearts and minds over the course of many years.
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L i b
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#1848
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#1848
(Original post by stravagante)
Although I'm not an expert on the issue, the whole argument about the dates of the referendum have been smartly done by the "No" campaigners. Personally, whether the Conservatives were re-elected down south would play a massive part in it for me. The threat of the benefit cuts and NHS cuts happening up here as they have in England is a decision maker I think.
Er... the NHS in England is not being cut. Its budget was adjusted to increase in real terms every year of the current parliament. In Scotland that is also happening, however to a lesser degree - and full Barnett conseqentials from spending increases on health in England have not been passed on to the NHS in Scotland. That's entirely the responsibility of the Scottish Government.

Virtually all benefits changes apply equally in England and Scotland. Welfare is a reserved issue.
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Maths Tutor
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#1849
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#1849
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Ireland : 45000 euros
UK: 28000 Euros.

http://www.eudebtclock.org/
You will need to quote official UK and Ireland government figures.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)

No, France and Germany both have higher national debts than the UK. France has a slightly higher DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION. Germany has a slightly lower DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.
Only PER HEAD is a meaningful comparison. You will have to quote French and German government figures to prove that.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
I really don't know where you are getting your information from.

It is affected by the size of the economy. Larger economies can borrow more. Especially those that can print their money. That is why Japan has a huge DEBT PER HEAD OF POPULATION.
It is the STATE and TYPE of the economy that matters NOT size: how much is raised in taxes and how much is spent on public services PER HEAD, the difference being the deficit which builds up into the national debt.

It is higher taxes and less or more efficient public services that result in a lower national debt.

Would you not expect public services in countries like the UK, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands to be broadly similar?

Also would the average tax revenue PER HEAD not be broadly similar?

But how much PER HEAD did Ireland spend on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and on Nuclear Weapons?

Compare that with how much PER HEAD the UK spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and on Nuclear Weapons. Where did all that money come from? Certainly not from high taxes - big companies pay very little tax in the UK.

What revenues and public expenditure were reported in Ireland for the last year? What was the deficit and what was it PER HEAD?
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Maths Tutor
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#1850
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#1850
(Original post by L i b)
You're the one using the language of subsidy, not me. For my part, I believe that Scotland is a net contributer some years and a net receipient other years. This is quite clearly a normal part of being a normal country.

But yes, you've clearly ignored the substantive points of my post because they don't suit your simplistic analysis. Oh, and by the by, the same points I made about writing in caps lock apply to superfluous bolding of text.



Yes you have. You did it clearly in the post I quoted. You suggested that the benefit or detriment of Scotland remaining in the UK could be measured in strictly financial terms.

If you're going to behave this way, I'm not even sure what you hope to gain from this discussion. You're being rude and abusive without any cause for it.



I'm not some sort of research body here to add verification to either your arguments or other people's. I'm here to make my own arguments. For my part, I find polling extraordinarily uninteresting beyond very broad general trends. What I will say if that I find it extremely difficult to imagine the Nationalists could conceivably turn around a poll lead of that nature on an issue which people already have largely entrenched opinions about, particularly given the effort they have made to win hearts and minds over the course of many years.
What a LIAR and DISTORTER.

I had pointed out very clearly who had made the subsidy comment:

"Why don't you reply to the point made by rmpr97: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives."
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DorianGrayism
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#1851
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#1851
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
You will need to quote official UK and Ireland government figures.



Only PER HEAD is a meaningful comparison. You will have to quote French and German government figures to prove that.
What is wrong with these figures?

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
It is the STATE and TYPE of the economy that matters NOT size: how much is raised in taxes and how much is spent on public services PER HEAD, the difference being the deficit which builds up into the national debt.
Well, the size does matter. That is why Japan can borrow more per head than say Uganda and have a good credit rating.

It is the same reason why you can have a higher debt per head than a poorer person in India.
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Midlander
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#1852
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#1852
I see Maths Tutor has gone silent on his praise of the Greek economy. Guess it can't be that strong after all.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
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Good bloke
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#1853
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#1853
(Original post by Midlander)
I see Maths Tutor has gone silent on his praise of the Greek economy. Guess it can't be that strong after all.
He also hasn't responded to my questions as to why he thinks Scots have higher status than other Britons, despite a reminder, or my other points. I don't suppose he will.

He seems to be consumed with anger about independence matters and his rationality is in doubt. That he keeps harping on about the poll figures (which do show a remarkable long term stability around the 30% in favour mark) and entirely misses the point that minor fluctuations are irrelevant and meaningless, and within the margin for error of the polls, shows he has lost sight of what the main issues are.

His obsession with one misleading economic measure (per capita GDP) to the exclusion of more important ones (such as debt to GDP ratio) shows he doesn't grasp the economic issues very well.
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Midlander
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#1854
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#1854
(Original post by Good bloke)
He also hasn't responded to my questions as to why he thinks Scots have higher status than other Britons, despite a reminder, or my other points. I don't suppose he will.

He seems to be consumed with anger about independence matters and his rationality is in doubt. That he keeps harping on about the poll figures (which do show a remarkable long term stability around the 30% in favour mark) and entirely misses the point that minor fluctuations are irrelevant and meaningless, and within the margin for error of the polls, shows he has lost sight of what the main issues are.

His obsession with one misleading economic measure (per capita GDP) to the exclusion of more important ones (such as debt to GDP ratio) shows he doesn't grasp the economic issues very well.
When's the next plane to Athens? Perhaps MT could get a one way ticket.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
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MatureStudent36
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#1855
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#1855
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
What a LIAR and DISTORTER.

I had pointed out very clearly who had made the subsidy comment:

"Why don't you reply to the point made by rmpr97: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives."

Can you try and raise your game a little please. It doesn't help your cause and just perpetuates the myth that separatists are a little over emotional. Emotions don't pay the bills.
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FinalMH
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#1856
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#1856
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
For the sake of accuracy and completeness you should:
.[/B]
For the sake of cherry picking?

Are you incapable of doing your own research? You make ludicrous claims without evidence then expect other people to back it up. Unfortunately for you, your point has been shown to be false.
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MatureStudent36
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#1857
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#1857
(Original post by FinalMH)
For the sake of cherry picking?

Are you incapable of doing your own research? You make ludicrous claims without evidence then expect other people to back it up. Unfortunately for you, your point has been shown to be false.


He does do research. But the research consists of cut and paste from three nationalist websites that are all run by the same organisation to give the impression of 3rd person endorsement.

He then claims the main stream media is against his cause because they critique the statements and find gaping holes in the argument. A more recent example has been the alleged second oil boom that has now well and truly been de bunked.

he seems to forget that 70% of us can be both proud Scots and members of the Uk.
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FinalMH
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#1858
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#1858
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
He does do research. But the research consists of cut and paste from three nationalist websites that are all run by the same organisation to give the impression of 3rd person endorsement.

He then claims the main stream media is against his cause because they critique the statements and find gaping holes in the argument. A more recent example has been the alleged second oil boom that has now well and truly been de bunked.

he seems to forget that 70% of us can be both proud Scots and members of the Uk.
oh right. Sorry Maths Tutor. I just found it annoying, him asking me and someone else to provide research to back up his claim.

If he was do that for politics essay, then he would more then certainly fail.
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UnderPost
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#1859
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#1859
A right for a country to be able to self-determine it's future. I think that alone makes it a good thing.

The policies of the UK Gov be it Labour or the Coalition have been geared towards the economy of the South East of England. I cannot see this changing in the future.

So go for it Scotland, you may never ever get a chance like this again....
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UnderPost
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#1860
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#1860
(Original post by L i b)
Er... the NHS in England is not being cut. Its budget was adjusted to increase in real terms every year of the current parliament. In Scotland that is also happening, however to a lesser degree - and full Barnett conseqentials from spending increases on health in England have not been passed on to the NHS in Scotland. That's entirely the responsibility of the Scottish Government.

Virtually all benefits changes apply equally in England and Scotland. Welfare is a reserved issue.

Cuts need not necessarily mean financial cuts. There are cuts happening in the NHS in England- some treatment is now going to be provided by a private company. To me, this is a cut in the NHS (maybe not a cut in the budget, but a cut in what the 'main' NHS provides).
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