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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    a buffer zone is exactly that. it removed its significant sitting army that it had there some time ago. though that decision may have to be reversed given hamas' actions over the last few weeks.
    It's on Gazan land which means that your statement that the Israeli's militarily withdrew and are no longer occupying Gazan land is demonstrably false:

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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It's on Gazan land which means that your statement that the Israeli's militarily withdrew and are no longer occupying Gazan land is demonstrably false:
    what is 'gazan' land there was a major military occupation of entire gaza following similar hamas terrorist activites over a decade ago, then the israelis withdrew, after much lobbying by usa and others i remind you. howver they maintaind a buffer zone, to protect the boundaries with israeli towns.

    the very fact that the standing army withdrew is what has allowed hamas to once again build an operating terrorist network in gaza
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no thats not what i had said, it must be your thinking thats retarded. i said israel was punching well above its weight, as a tiny country with natural resources and population incomparable to its enemies- it would be deemed the 'underdog' It has survived in the middle east purley based on ingenuity. It has become a major military power -but why you may ask? purley because of the fact it was surrounded by hostiles since the 1960s, it had to become a military power purely to survive. apart form winning 3 outnumbered wars, it has been also the target for every jihadi nutcase on the planet
    But mostly the US funding/political leverage, of course. They want to project their power in the Middle East, remind the OPEC countries who's boss.

    It's easy to succeed despite few natural resources if you have unnatural resources, i.e. investment. Once you have a foothold it's easier to make even more money/gain even more power as well.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    I understand why those who have lost families in this conflict would be angry at Israel, I would be too, but part of the blame should also lie on Hamas for not doing all they can to stop the conflict. You can blame the 'aggressor' but you also have to blame your government too because if they had simply accepted the ceasefire, the fighting would stop.
    So you allow the bully to take your dinner money and hope he doesn't keep kicking and punching you?

    You can't keep villifying someone for doing something you could have stopped. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, they don't care about Israeli civilians, they don't care about anyone or anything that doesn't lead to the destruction of Israel. Israel will never be destroyed, Israel is far more powerful than Hamas and has the added advantage of being a liberal democracy (so support from the rest of the world over Hamas which is largely seen as a terrorist organisation).
    The UN HRC begs to differ. How can you be a "liberal democracy" if you subjugate, occupy, oppress and sanction state murder?

    Hamas is fighting for a hopeless cause, and doesn't care how many die during the process, whether Palestinian or Israeli. Palestinian deaths help with their propaganda and Israeli deaths 'help' with the destruction of Israel. If Hamas was truly concerned for the plight of the Palestinians, this conflict would have already ended, and there would be far less casualties.
    And Gaza would still be a prison. No, let me correct that. Gaza would have almost disappeared having carried the weight of god knows how many settlements.

    If you want a stark comparison between what "ceasefire" and "resistance" entails, take a look at the land that the PA controls in the West Bank, which is arguably not Israeli land.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    what is 'gazan' land there was a major military occupation of entire gaza following similar hamas terrorist activites over a decade ago, then the israelis withdrew, after much lobbying by usa and others i remind you. howver they maintaind a buffer zone, to protect the boundaries with israeli towns.

    the very fact that the standing army withdrew is what has allowed hamas to once again build an operating terrorist network in gaza
    Israel military occupies Gazan land. That is an indisputable fact that not even the Israeli's deny yet you deny. Take another look at the map:

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    Google search students at the IDC Herzliya “war room,” post propaganda justifying Israel's attack on Gaza.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So you know the difference between "mass immigration" and military conquest? Please explain to us the difference...



    I'm glad you have seen the errors of your statements.



    It takes two to tango. One hand cannot clap on it's own.



    But it's not just Muslims standing up for Palestine. It's Chile, Bolivia, Ecuador, Denmark, France and any number of countries which have condemned the "Israeli aggression" and their appalling human rights infringements against the Palestinians.
    but do they advocate military action against israel? No, why?

    becuase the same countries , in general are also agaisnt islamic doctrine and islamist agendas and terrorism too

    until muslims realise that islamic agendas must be attacked not appeased - and they need to take responsibility, issues like palestine will never achieve significant backing that would promote change.
    can you still explain why you still choose to prop up islamist agendas, and therefore terrorism, allowing innocent muslims to be killedin sacrifice?

    (Original post by tsr1269)

    a) Could you show me evidence that HAMAS fired a rocket which started off this current round of fighting?

    b) If Israel can bomb tunnels from airstrikes, why do they need to go for a ground invasion?
    they cant find all the tunnels or rockets without ground invasion, nor can they secure the sites otherwise
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    But mostly the US funding/political leverage, of course. They want to project their power in the Middle East, remind the OPEC countries who's boss.

    It's easy to succeed despite few natural resources if you have unnatural resources, i.e. investment. Once you have a foothold it's easier to make even more money/gain even more power as well.
    the US doenst fund Israel- in fact it gives far more in aid to palestine (as does uk etc) and does more trade with arab states such as saudi.

    israel has become a major exporter of arms, becuase thats what its position amoungst hostiles has forced it to become.

    most people (inc you) are ignorant to the background of the entire issue - its not a border dipsute - this goes back a millenia - its based on islamist assertion that jerusalem and levant should be arab controlled- purely because A historically they conquered it, and B) mohammed claimed to have had a dream about flying on a winged donkey on a rock there once.

    Those are ridiculous ideas to start a war over im sorry.
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    Israel Invades Gaza Because It Can

    About Gaza: an Israeli's account
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    Our cowardly government abstains from voting on an inquiry into Israeli atrocities:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So you allow the bully to take your dinner money and hope he doesn't keep kicking and punching you?



    The UN HRC begs to differ. How can you be a "liberal democracy" if you subjugate, occupy, oppress and sanction state murder?



    And Gaza would still be a prison. No, let me correct that. Gaza would have almost disappeared having carried the weight of god knows how many settlements.

    If you want a stark comparison between what "ceasefire" and "resistance" entails, take a look at the land that the PA controls in the West Bank, which is arguably not Israeli land.
    I don't agree with the bully analogy. If you keep kicking and punching someone who is far larger than you, don't be surprised when they kick and punch you back. I might not agree with Israeli, and I might not condone the way Israel is handling this but I certaintly don't buy Hamas as the victim in all of this. Israel is better at defending itself against Hamas, if Hamas had the resources, Hamas would have killed far more Israeli civilians. Hamas wants to kill more people but can't. Thats the difference between the Israeli government and Hamas. While you may argue that Israel isn't safeguarding the Palestinians well enough, it is blatantly obvious that Israel's intention isn't to kill as many civilians as possible, because if it was, far more civilians would be dead now. Probably in the thousands with Israel's resources. However, Hamas is purposely trying to kill as many Israeli's as possible, that is their intent.

    There is no bully in this fight, there isn't a goodie and a baddie. The innocent Palestinians are the only victims in this fight. Hamas and Israel are the opposing bullies. The civilians caught in between the two forces are the victims. Hamas, (Bully no. 1) takes money from the victim, Israel (Bully no. 2) takes double the money taken from the victim away from Hamas, Hamas fails to take it back and suddenly Hamas is the innocent party and Israel is the big bad bully even though really neither are helping the victim (the Palestinians) and both are increasing the suffering of the Palestinians. That is a far more fitting analogy than the overly simplistic and naive analogy you just used.

    So what do you propose? More fighting which leads to more Palestinian deaths? What is the solution to all this? Israel isn't going to go anywhere, no matter how hard Hamas fights, Israel will fight harder. There are only two possible ways this could end, with no more fighting or with more Palestinian deaths. Israel won't lose, and everyone knows that. Hamas has to make the decision, lose more Palestinians or continue a hopeless fight.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    It's pretty self-explanatory, so I'm puzzled by your question. There is no occupation because there is no occupation. Israel withdrew all military and civilians from Gaza a decade ago.
    - Gaza and the West Bank are both part of the Palestinian territories de jure under PA control.

    - Israel maintains effective control over Gaza.

    - Occupation does not end when troops pull out, but when sovereignty is established/re-established (the former in the case of Palestine).
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    I don't agree with the bully analogy. If you keep kicking and punching someone who is far larger than you, don't be surprised when they kick and punch you back. I might not agree with Israeli, and I might not condone the way Israel is handling this but I certaintly don't buy Hamas as the victim in all of this. Israel is better at defending itself against Hamas, if Hamas had the resources, Hamas would have killed far more Israeli civilians. Hamas wants to kill more people but can't. Thats the difference between the Israeli government and Hamas. While you may argue that Israel isn't safeguarding the Palestinians well enough, it is blatantly obvious that Israel's intention isn't to kill as many civilians as possible, because if it was, far more civilians would be dead now. Probably in the thousands with Israel's resources. However, Hamas is purposely trying to kill as many Israeli's as possible, that is their intent.
    Are you for real? Seriously? Over 600 Palestinians have been killed, many arguably deliberately. How many people need to die before you're satisfied? To me as well as most other logical humans, it is not blatantly obvious at all.
    What do you know of Hamas's intents? Have you looked up their terms for ceasefire? Those are their immediate intentions, if only you'd bother looking.
    Hamas is the only resistance of the Palestinian people. Hamas is being condemned as a 'terrorist'. Ergo, Hamas is a victim, same as the Palestinian people.
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    (Original post by Diamante06)
    The whole region, under the British mandate was called Palestine.



    How does a defensive action result in the total conquest of someone else's lands? The answer is that it does not. Israel is the aggressor. The maps of Israel then and now prove it.
    Attached Images
     
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    So what do you propose? More fighting which leads to more Palestinian deaths? What is the solution to all this? Israel isn't going to go anywhere, no matter how hard Hamas fights, Israel will fight harder. There are only two possible ways this could end, with no more fighting or with more Palestinian deaths. Israel won't lose, and everyone knows that. Hamas has to make the decision, lose more Palestinians or continue a hopeless fight.
    Oh yeah? You seem very sure of what's going to happen in the future. Fanatic is what comes to mind.

    'Israel won't lose' - Actually, everyone doesn't know that. 'Lose' in what sense? If you count winning by the number of dead Palestinian bodies, then you're right, Israel is winning. But Israel has already lost much of its legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Israel is seriously tyrannical; Israel has conned the world for much of the past 60 years, but no longer.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    x
    LOL. That is far from the truth, that is Zionist propaganda. Calling Palestine 'British' is the same as calling the West Bank today 'Israeli'.

    An occupier occupies, immorally. An occupier does not own.

    However, it is no great wonder that you agree with colonial Britain occupying Palestine as 'owning' it, as you agree to the same for Israel today.
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    why are you bashing poor old blighty, lots of countries abstained it looks like, including the Republic of Macedonia, why arnt you bashing Alexander the Great?
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    but do they advocate military action against israel? No, why?
    Because Israel have not taken their land?

    becuase the same countries , in general are also agaisnt islamic doctrine and islamist agendas and terrorism too
    Supporting Palestine =/= Supporting Islamists.

    until muslims realise that islamic agendas must be attacked not appeased - and they need to take responsibility, issues like palestine will never achieve significant backing that would promote change.
    can you still explain why you still choose to prop up islamist agendas, and therefore terrorism, allowing innocent muslims to be killedin sacrifice?
    Islamism =/= Terrorism.

    they cant find all the tunnels or rockets without ground invasion, nor can they secure the sites otherwise
    But you said that they have "upped the intensity of the airstrikes to collapse these tunnels". Why not just bomb the buffer zone?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Israel withdrew to the 67 lines in Gaza.

    They have no right to be firing rockets and indeed the international community has come down on Israel's side.
    Yeah, Israel has withdrawn and the holocaust never happened.


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    Israel’s message to the Palestinians: Submit, leave or die
 
 
 
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